Choosing between Rutgers and UC Berkeley for physics major?

[a7d07c8114]

I'm a current high school senior entering college this fall. I want to pursue physics as a career and plan to aim for a PhD. I've been accepted into Rutgers University and the University of California, Berkeley so far (and I'm still waiting on a few others).

The problem is, while I would much prefer to go to UC Berkeley for undergrad based on the reputation of the physics department there, its cost is prohibitive. My family has been in a tight spot financially for the past few years, and with my brother's college costs taken into account, paying for Berkeley is going to be difficult (so far, projected debt over 4 years comes out to over $100,000). Rutgers, on the other hand, is in my home state, and thus I can graduate nearly (if not entirely) loan-free.

I plan on majoring in physics and mathematics during undergrad, with the possibility of further studies in one foreign language and/or computer science. I also want to engage in undergraduate research from as early on as possible.

With the aim of doing well on the GRE and building a good resume for top graduate physics programs in mind, which one should I choose? Is Berkeley worth it, or should I stay close to home and save my money?

Also, asking current graduate students in particular: how difficult is it to find a graduate program that pays while you study? I'm not asking about financial aid in general, more like finding a program where you can work in a lab and get paid at least a little bit. Is that the norm, or is that only offered at select grad programs? As you can see, I'm less than knowledgeable in this area, so any help would be appreciated.

 

[eri]

Think about it this way. With 100k in loans (assuming you don't have to take out any in grad school, and many people do) your minimum payments each month after you graduate and start a postdoc would be about $500. With that payment, it will take you more than 20 years to pay off your loans, and you'll pay more than 200k with interest. You'll probably be making about 2k - 3k a month after taxes during a postdoc, much of which will go to rent. Go to Rutgers. The undergrad school really doesn't matter that much as long as you can do research.

 

[diazona]

Also, asking current graduate students in particular: how difficult is it to find a graduate program that pays while you study?

Not at all. Most (I've even been told "all" but not sure whether to believe that) graduate programs in physics support their students. You can get paid either for doing research if the professor you work for has enough funding, or for being a teaching assistant otherwise.

Have you checked that $100,000 figure with the financial aid department at UC Berkeley? Remember that different colleges have different kinds of financial aid programs that put varying amounts of emphasis on loans. Some of the top schools even eschew loans entirely and give out all their financial aid in the form of grants and scholarships, which means you get to graduate debt-free no matter what. I have my doubts that Berkeley is one of them, but you certainly shouldn't jump to conclusions before you check with them.

From the perspective of getting into a good graduate physics program, it probably doesn't matter that much what school you go to. The most important thing is going to be the research experience you get in your last couple of years, and (1) you can do good or bad research at any school; (2) you're not necessarily limited to doing research work at the school you attend. There are opportunities during the summer for you to participate in a research project at another institution. (Do a web search for REU, for example)

 

[jtbell]

Is Berkeley worth it, or should I stay close to home and save my money?

I'd go to Rutgers and save the money. Going to Berkeley would be a great experience, but it's not going to affect your future prospects enough to make it worth taking on a pile of debt.

how difficult is it to find a graduate program that pays while you study?

Physics graduate students normally get financial support, first as a teaching assistant in introductory labs or something similar, then as a research assistant in whatever research group you end up doing your dissertation with. Your tuition and fees are covered, with enough money to pay basic living costs. It's not a luxurious lifestyle, but you won't go broke so long as you stay away from fast cars and fast women.

 

[ahsanxr]

What other schools are you waiting on?

 

[a7d07c8114]

Berkeley is around $50-54000 per year, and my aid package is around $25000 a year counting Pell grants, so I'll likely be about $100-120000 in debt at the end of four years, with interest to deal with afterward. It does seem like a waste of money for what amounts to the same course material over four years of undergrad. I suppose Rutgers is just a better choice financially and logistically overall, and everyone seems to be saying it won't make much of a difference academically.

As for schools I'm still waiting on, there's Princeton, Stanford, and UMich (Ann Arbor), having already been rejected from UChicago. Not especially high hopes for either Princeton and Stanford (fingers still crossed though), and Michigan will likely end up a similar situation to Berkeley.

This does make me feel a lot more confident about Rutgers. I have a few concerns though: how competitive are REUs in physics/related fields? Are there certain skillsets I should prepare? (programming for example) How difficult is it to get through undergrad within 3 years (possibly with a double major) while preparing myself for the GRE and grad school? (I have AP credits for the majority of my freshman year courses at Rutgers) And how are job prospects after graduate school at the moment? I'd really love to participate in physics research as a career (whether in industry or academia), but I'm having trouble completely convincing my parents that I'll be okay getting a job and making a living through physics.

 

[jetforcegemin]

Are you taking into account that you can establish California residency for tuition purposes after your first year?

 

[diazona]

As for schools I'm still waiting on, there's Princeton, Stanford, and UMich (Ann Arbor), having already been rejected from UChicago. Not especially high hopes for either Princeton and Stanford (fingers still crossed though), and Michigan will likely end up a similar situation to Berkeley.

Good luck with those I actually had Princeton in mind when I made my earlier post since they do no-loan financial aid and it's an in-state school (although that doesn't matter since it's not a state school).

This does make me feel a lot more confident about Rutgers. I have a few concerns though: how competitive are REUs in physics/related fields? Are there certain skillsets I should prepare? (programming for example) How difficult is it to get through undergrad within 3 years (possibly with a double major) while preparing myself for the GRE and grad school? (I have AP credits for the majority of my freshman year courses at Rutgers) And how are job prospects after graduate school at the moment? I'd really love to participate in physics research as a career (whether in industry or academia), but I'm having trouble completely convincing my parents that I'll be okay getting a job and making a living through physics.

(1) Uh... pretty competitive I guess? I never actually did one, but generally in physics there are more people competing for any given opportunity than there are slots available. (2) Programming is always a useful skill, probably second after math (specifically linear algebra, complex analysis, and differential equations, though you've got plenty of time for those). If you want to get into programming, I'd start with Python, then learn C++, then Fortran if you feel brave ;) since those are among the most common languages used in scientific computing. (3) Depends on your preparation and what the university let's you skip. I wouldn't recommend it though (unless you've already taken college-level intro mechanics and E&M courses in high school and excelled in them). If you do get through the full course load of the program in 3 years, take an extra year to try out some advanced classes rather than jumping ship to grad school early. (4) If you limit yourself to academia, probably not great. Again, more people than open positions. There are some more opportunities in non-academic physics research if you're open to that. But a physics degree prepares you well for all sorts of jobs that may not even be related to physics at all. Any employer that works with any sort of quantitative analysis should look highly upon a physics degree (e.g. financial firms, even software companies), so I wouldn't worry about being able to find a job, even an interesting one.

 

[physics girl phd]

Are you taking into account that you can establish California residency for tuition purposes after your first year?

This might be difficult for an undergraduate. In many states you need to prove financial independence (which is easier in grad school with a stipend -- and which many grad schools require you do after the first year).

 

[jtbell]

generally in physics [REUs] there are more people competing for any given opportunity than there are slots available.

I bet this is at least partly due to people applying to dozens of them.

 

[a7d07c8114]

Are you taking into account that you can establish California residency for tuition purposes after your first year?).

Yes, I considered establishing residency, but indeed I would need to either establish financial independence or force my parents to move to Califnornia (from NJ), neither of which is an especially viable option for me.

Thanks to everyone who responded to this post! I feel a lot more confident about what direction I need to head in now.

 

[mathwonk]

The several times i have visited Berkeley, whether for a few days in the 1960's or a few months in the 1990's, or a week in 2008, I have always found it a stressful and rather unpleasant place to be. There has long been strong tension between the populace and the police, and there is a lot of poverty and crime. Once while I was crossing the street legally there, a young man driving a car actually tried to run me down in broad daylight. While I was there in 1992 an insane activist tried to murder a university official with a machete, and a student walking home on a city street near campus was mugged and shot to death for asking his assailant "why?" There are panhandlers in every block. The graduate student assistants staged a strike against the university based on ill treatment and poor wages and asked everyone to avoid visiting the library for several weeks while I was trying to do research. Returning a book to a friend in the math dept once, I overheard a junior faculty member next door shouting at a student: "get out! can't you see my office hours are over?" As a handicapped person with a handicap parking sticker I was still denied the right to park in a handicap space near the campus building where the talk I was attending was being held, even though i was a member of MSRI at the time. To me Berkeley is a kind of insane asylum plagued by violence and strife. It can be exciting, but in a rather negative way. I avoid it if at all possible (and my expenses were all being paid). I am not sure I would accept a $100,000 prize just to live there one year. I visited it first at age 27 and last at age 67 and it was essentially the same. Of course the weather is beautiful and there are wonderful bookstores and record shops, but in the window of one of the shops I was perusing there was a sign implying the owner would shoot me if I displeased him. Stanford is completely different and a delightful small town.