CIA Director David Petraeus submitted his resignation Friday

[MarneMath]

Sigh. Yes, I gave the frat briefs. I like to think I ended up knowing the policies pretty well after three years. But you don't have to take my word for it, you can just read every branches regulation and see how every member is equally effected by the frat policy. Focusing on simply the UCMJ is naive.

Also, if you are prior service , and thus have more than internet knowledge. I'm willing to bet you were an officer and served before 1998. In which case, congratulations you have iinternet knowledge. SInce from 1995 to 1998 every branch wrote ths aspect of the policy due to massive unfairness in the UCMJ.

The thing is none of this matters in this current discussion. I brought it up t point out an error on your point. He is held to such a high standard because he was a leader of such a great amount of men and commanded a great deal of respect. I personally would hold any General officer or Senior NCO to the same standard. Yet, we're all human, which is the point I wish to drive home. He obiously made a huge mistake regarding his personal life, but o expect anybody to live flawlessly is expecting far too much from anyone. Thus, I wish him wel recovering from this affrai, I wish his family well, and hopefully, no secrets were given away.

We obviously have to wait for more details.

 

[russ_watters]

I brought it up t point out an error on your point. He is held to such a high standard because he was a leader of such a great amount of men and commanded a great deal of respect. I personally would hold any General officer or Senior NCO to the same standard.

Actually, it sounds like you are agreeing with me there.

And that is a reflection of the deeper issue that is behind the concept of fraternization: The idea of fraternization applies to the civilian world as well. The reason why fraternization is more serious the higher the rank (or, rather, the larger the difference in rank) is that rank is a reflection of power. The higher the rank of the higher ranking person, the more power he/she has and, implicitly, the more power over the underling. The underlying concept is actually the same as statutory rape.

Now make sure you understand this: I'm not saying this applies to General Petraeus. That wasn't the question I was asked. And my point was actually more general, I just gave a specific example that happened to be a legal one. Higher ranking persons are held to higher standards by virtue of their position, both in the military and outside the military. And that reality goes beyond the legal system.

 

[MarneMath]

I would appreciate it if when you talked to me you would limit your condescending tone. Thank you. Secondly, again I fail to see how this little discourse of ours truly relates to the discussion at hand. I really do not want to distract from the topic at hand with a discussion of what fraternization means in the military and in the civilian world, thus my efforts to keep refocusing back to the main issue. However, if you feel incline to have a discussion about this, I would encourage a new thread topic somewhere.

 

[lisab]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-20301476

Yikes, another general is involved. Bad things happen when generals take orders from their privates.



Bad puns aside, this is really a terrible mess, and I hope this is as far as it goes.

 

[edward]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-20301476

Yikes, another general is involved. Bad things happen when generals take orders from their privates.



Bad puns aside, this is really a terrible mess, and I hope this is as far as it goes.

I can't believe how this has turned into a really bad soap opera.

The official said 20,000 to 30,000 documents from Allen's communications with Kelley between 2010 and 2012 are under review. He would not say whether they involved sexual matters or whether they are thought to include unauthorized disclosures of classified information.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-250_162-57548783/u.s-afghan-commander-link-to-petraeus-scandal/

That sounds like cyber sex, not that there is anything wrong with that unless you're married, oops they are all married with children.

But the FBI became concerned when the agent who initiated the investigation was discovered to have sent shirtless photos of himself to Kelly previously.

http://www.americanthinker.com/blog...of_petreaus_under_scrutiny.html#ixzz2C8S6Xh57

I think the FBI should have searched Jill Kelly's computer.

 

[jobyts]

It all started with Broadwell's letter saying "stay away from my guy". Had she been more specific which guy, Jill Kelley would be less confused and might not have approached FBI :)

 

[edward]

It all started with Broadwell's letter saying "stay away from my guy". Had she been more specific which guy, Jill Kelley would be less confused and might not have approached FBI :)

There is a lot more to it than that. Why wasn't anyone suspicious when one woman, a volunteer social liaison, had access to so many Central Command Alliance officers at Mac Dill AFB.

Before long, the Kelley mansion became the place to be seen for coalition officers. Gen. David Petraeus, leader of U.S. Central Command at MacDill, marked his first celebration of the Gasparilla pirate parade on the Kelleys' lawn.

http://www.tampabay.com/news/milita...-found-place-hosting-military-parties/1261272

Holy cr@p a person has to have a background check just to drive a bus these days.

 

[AlephZero]

Some technical information about the email trail here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-20310799

Apparently there was a deliberate strategy to conceal the information transfer, by two people both accessing the "draft emails" folder of the same anonymous account, instead of actually sending emails to each other which would have been easy to trace.

 

[Astronuc]

Petraeus Scandal: Paula Broadwell in Classified Document Probe
http://gma.yahoo.com/broadwell-classified-document-probe-114054139.html

Paula Broadwell, the author who allegedly had an affair with former CIA Director David Petraeus, is suspected of storing significant amounts of military documents, including classified material, at her home, potentially in violation of federal law.

A source familiar with case told ABC News that Broadwell admitted to the FBI she took the documents from secure government buildings. The government demanded that they all be given back, and when federal agents descended on her North Carolina home on Monday night it was a pre-arranged meeting.

. . . .

That is a serious matter.

One should not remove classified documents from secure facilities, nor store them in one's home, without authorization and proper security.

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

Now the chairman of Waffle House is in the same fix.

LA Times

As in the Petraeus case, the problem is not the sex, it's the security breach. The question is whether any secret recipes were leaked to Huddle House, IHOP, and Denny's.

 

[Borg]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-20301476

Yikes, another general is involved. Bad things happen when generals take orders from their privates.



Bad puns aside, this is really a terrible mess, and I hope this is as far as it goes.

That is a great quote lisab!

 

[Evo]

It seems Paula Broadwell was in this for herself and a bit emotionally unhinged.

Jill Kelley seems to be another flake

The official described Kelley as a "nice, bored rich socialite who drops the honorary from her title... and tells people she is an ambassador.

http://gma.yahoo.com/broadwell-classified-document-probe-114054139.html

 

[edward]

Petraeus Scandal: Paula Broadwell in Classified Document Probe
http://gma.yahoo.com/broadwell-classified-document-probe-114054139.html

That is a serious matter.

One should not remove classified documents from secure facilities, nor store them in one's home, without authorization and proper security.

Apparently she did have proper security clearance or she wouldn't have had access to the documents in the first place. Both she and the general must not have planned on ever being caught. Committing adultery voids a security clearance.

Under federal law, if Broadwell has classified material in her home she must show she has authority to have it, that it relates to her work in military intelligence and that she is following all security and safety measures to safeguard the material, military officials told CNN.

"I had to follow very clear lines of non-disclosure and sign non-disclosure agreements, like my colleagues. I felt like I was almost held to a higher level of accountability because I could lose my clearance," Broadwell said in a speech last year. "I think it was important to inform my writing, but I knew there was a clear line that I couldn't cross when I was writing it out."

http://security.blogs.cnn.com/2012/11/14/the-relevance-of-paula-broadwells-classified-clearance/

The thing that disturbs me the most is that the "flake" lady in Florida had so much access to the top brass of the Central Command Coalition and to the AFB itself. She could have turned out to be a modern day Mata Hari.

More than likely she just liked to play touchy feely with guys who have shiny objects and ribbons on their jackets. She even knew the FBI agent she contacted, before reporting the e-mails, to the point that he had sent her a shirtless picture of himself.

If it wasn't so tragic it would be total soap opera stuff.

 

[russ_watters]

This is interesting: Broadwell was giving a speech in October and revealed some information that still hasn't been confirmed about the attack in Benghazi, implying it was information that she learned through Petraeus: http://www.usatoday.com/videos/news/nation/2012/11/12/1699133/

 

[Monsterboy]

Behind every successful man there is a women but there is also one, behind his resignation.

 

[MarneMath]

Does it imply that? I'm unsure if she's still in the service, but if she still is in the reserves, as an officer with TSCi, she should have access to JWIC. I imagine such information would be present there. Now talking about information there, probably not the best idea.

*JWIC - system used to contain Secret and Top Secret information.

 

[BobG]

Apparently she did have proper security clearance or she wouldn't have had access to the documents in the first place. Both she and the general must not have planned on ever being caught. Committing adultery voids a security clearance.

An on-going affair usually voids a security clearance. Actually, though, once your affair is publicized in newspapers and TV stations all over the world, it doesn't have much blackmail value anymore.

The fact that a person had an affair at least once does raise questions about how likely he/her is to get themselves into that situation again, though, just as financial problems do.

But, running into financial problems because you were a low ranking enlisted person having to move their family from an overseas base back to the US is not the same as running into financial problems because you're obsessed with impressing friends and relatives. The first can be recovered from, while the second maybe not so much (although a person still in the middle of recovering from some legitimate financial disaster probably wouldn't be very likely to get a security clearance).

Likewise, not all affairs are equal.

And taking away a general's retirement pay for adultery would be absurd. Adultery isn't actually an offense in itself. It would be punished for the effect it has (disrupting morale, etc); not for the behavior itself. And each branch of the military handles adultery and fraternization slightly differently. In fact, actually getting punished for adultery is pretty rare. You pretty much have to be an idiot about it (have an affair with someone that works for you, the spouse of someone in your organization, etc - in other words, your affair has to cause problems).

 

[lisab]

The thing that disturbs me the most is that the "flake" lady in Florida had so much access to the top brass of the Central Command Coalition and to the AFB itself. She could have turned out to be a modern day Mata Hari.

More than likely she just liked to play touchy feely with guys who have shiny objects and ribbons on their jackets. She even knew the FBI agent she contacted, before reporting the e-mails, to the point that he had sent her a shirtless picture of himself.

If it wasn't so tragic it would be total soap opera stuff.

Yes, I keep coming back to this woman, too, and asking the same questions. She seemed pretty good at worming her way into the confidence of top brass. That's disconcerting.

 

[russ_watters]

Does it imply that? I'm unsure if she's still in the service, but if she still is in the reserves, as an officer with TSCi, she should have access to JWIC. I imagine such information would be present there. Now talking about information there, probably not the best idea.

*JWIC - system used to contain Secret and Top Secret information.

Does the CIA utilize the same database? I would expect this information to be special access.

The reason it implies a Petreus connection:
1. Its CIA.
2. She discusses his use of theinformation in the same context as she mentions the information.

 

[russ_watters]

Yes, I keep coming back to this woman, too, and asking the same questions. She seemed pretty good at worming her way into the confidence of top brass. That's disconcerting.

She doesn't appear to be a spy, but it is a classic spy tactic. It works!

Btw, CNN reports Broadwell's clearance has been suspended.

 

[edward]

She doesn't appear to be a spy, but it is a classic spy tactic. It works!

Btw, CNN reports Broadwell's clearance has been suspended.

And kelly's pass to access MacDill AFB has been revoked.

Ironically the first e-mail Broadwell sent was to General John Allen.

It started in May with a spiteful email to the top U.S. commander in Afghanistan. An anonymous writer warned Gen. John Allen that a friend with whom he was meeting in Washington the following week was trouble and he should stay away from her.

Allen thought the email was a joke because he didn't know how anybody else would know about his personal plans with his friend, Florida socialite Jill Kelley a person close to Kelley said.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/chi-jill-kelley-20121115,0,996571.story

 

[BobG]

Btw, CNN reports Broadwell's clearance has been suspended.

That would be normal while she's being investigated for security violations.

But reports don't really give details on what's meant by her having classified info on her computer. She could have literally copied classified documents and transferred them to her computer. Or, the documents she wrote could contain classified information.

Both are security classifications and put her in some real trouble. But, there is a difference in the motivation/intent. There's no way you copy classified documents onto your computer without knowing you're breaking the law. Writing about stuff you know and not keeping straight which stuff you know can be written about and which stuff can't is ineptitude rather than criminal intent.

It's not that hard of a mistake to make, either. Just because something is being reported on CNN doesn't make it unclassified (nor Aviation "Leak" for that matter). That's something she'd probably be reminded of constantly via recurring security training, but the fact that it's emphasized so often implies that it's a fairly common security violation.

It also creates a gray area. Because of leaks to the press, a person could inadvertantly write about classified information and not know that it's classified because they don't have access to the "official" documents. But if they reveal this information while writing about someone who did have access to the source documents, there raises a lot of questions about whether she got that info from him (which essentially verifies that news organizations got their stories straight) or whether she got the info from unclassified sources (the rumor mill, which may or may not be reliable).

 

[edward]

Yes, I keep coming back to this woman, too, and asking the same questions. She seemed pretty good at worming her way into the confidence of top brass. That's disconcerting.

She definitley knew how to cuddle up to the top brass.

Catch the hug scene in the video

http://www.washingtonpost.com/jill-...e3e4fa-2d9f-11e2-b631-2aad9d9c73ac_video.html

 

[lisab]

Wow, the press sure knows how to sensationalize!

Reported: The FBI agent was said to have sent a topless picture of himself to Jill Kelley, supposedly because he had a crush on her.

Actual: This story says the picture was taken during a training exercise, as a joke because he looks so much like the dummies they were shooting. Looks like he took his shirt off to emphasize the resemblance. It was sent from his family email (shared with his wife), to several people, including a reporter. It was all just a joke!

http://seattletimes.com/html/localnews/2019684905_agent15m.html

 

[edward]

Wow, the press sure knows how to sensationalize!

Reported: The FBI agent was said to have sent a topless picture of himself to Jill Kelley, supposedly because he had a crush on her.

Actual: This story says the picture was taken during a training exercise, as a joke because he looks so much like the dummies they were shooting. Looks like he took his shirt off to emphasize the resemblance. It was sent from his family email (shared with his wife), to several people, including a reporter. It was all just a joke!

http://seattletimes.com/html/localnews/2019684905_agent15m.html

Apparently the FBI didn't get the joke. They pulled the agent off of the case.

We won't know who to believe now;

Kelly, who Broadwell may have been concerned was the general’s other “other woman,” has already lawyered up with renowned defense lawyer Abbe Lowell — former clients include John Edwards, former representative Gary Condit (in the Chandra Levy investigation), Bill Clinton during impeachment days and Loop Favorite/disgraced lobbyist Jack Abramoff.

Kelly also hired famous crisis management guru Judy Smith of Monica Lewinsky and BP (the oil spill company) fame to handle any media fallout.

http://www.wnd.com/2012/11/broadwells-bio-embedded-with-petraeus/?cat_orig=us

Wow it was hard to find a link on the crisis management deal. It was all over the net yesterday.

I thought the Kellys were broke.

 

[Evo]

Apparently the FBI didn't get the joke. They pulled the agent off of the case.

We won't know who to believe now;



http://www.wnd.com/2012/11/broadwells-bio-embedded-with-petraeus/?cat_orig=us

Wow it was hard to find a link on the crisis management deal. It was all over the net yesterday.

I thought the kellys were broke.

Would it ever be appropriate for an FBI agent to send a topless photo of himself to some woman who pretends to be an 'ambassador" to the military, whatever the hell that's supposed to mean.

Even at my job, you could not send such photos. I was under non-disclosure to the Department of Homeland Security in my job. If it's not appropriate in the office, it's not appropriate...period.

My first husband was in Naval Intelligence. He had a very high clearance, just above top secret, his clearance was letters, not "top secret", it was something like "BI", just for example, he could read these documents at the highly secure office, he COULD NOT remove them from the premises. Isn't that the issue here? Documents you take home must be declassified? That she has these classified documents in her home was a breach of security/protocol, was it not?

 

[edward]

Will this ever end.

A New York businessman who discussed a multi-billion-dollar Korean business deal with Jill Kelley said the Tampa woman at the center of the Petraeus scandal told him Gen. Petraeus had arranged for her to become an honorary consul for South Korea and promote free trade, and then asked him for $80 million to complete the deal.

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/jill-...bragged-petraeus-connection/story?id=17732754

OK now I don't know whether to believe this or not

 

[Astronuc]

Isn't that the issue here? Documents you take home must be declassified? That she has these classified documents in her home was a breach of security/protocol, was it not?

If Broadwell was a courier, she might be able to have certain documents, but they would have to be secured, e.g. kept in a safe until delivered to a secure location. However, secret documents would not be kept at a persons home, but only at a secure facility like the Pentagon, government or contractor's site.

Electronic documents would have to be on an approved encrypted and protected computer, and certainly not on a home computer.

Unfortunately, we don't know the specifics, but it sounds ominous for Broadwell.

 

[MarneMath]

Does the CIA utilize the same database? I would expect this information to be special access.

The reason it implies a Petreus connection:
1. Its CIA.
2. She discusses his use of theinformation in the same context as she mentions the information.

The answer is yes, they do. They also have their own system, but regardless, it's a bit premature to just assume her only source of information is Petraeus.

 

[lisab]

The answer is yes, they do. They also have their own system, but regardless, it's a bit premature to just assume her only source of information is Petraeus.

Agree. In fact in the early days of this story (I can't find it now), Patraeus said as much. When asked about Broadwell having secret documents in her possession, he said other officers in Afghanistan may have given them to her. I'll see if I can find the article...kind of like looking for a needle in a haystack at this point though .

Edit:

Retired Gen. Petraeus also denied ... that he had given Broadwell any of the sensitive military information alleged to have been found on her computer, saying anything she had must have been provided by other commanders during reporting trips to Afghanistan.

Bolding mine.

http://www.wsbtv.com/ap/ap/crime/info-emerges-about-2nd-woman-in-petraeus-case/nS4YW/

 

[russ_watters]

Would it ever be appropriate for an FBI agent to send a topless photo of himself to some woman who pretends to be an 'ambassador" to the military, whatever the hell that's supposed to mean.

Even at my job, you could not send such photos. I was under non-disclosure to the Department of Homeland Security in my job. If it's not appropriate in the office, it's not appropriate...period.

I'd never use my corporate email for such a purpose either. I barely use it for any personal purposes at all and nothing that I wouldn't be willing to discuss in front of my bosses.

 

[russ_watters]

The answer is yes, they do. They also have their own system, but regardless, it's a bit premature to just assume her only source of information is Petraeus.[emphasis added]

The word was "imply". Don't read into my post something different from what I said.

 

[MarneMath]

i'm failing to see the drastic difference, but if you want to go that route, then I retract my original statement and now "it's a bit premature to assume her statements imply Petraeus is or was her only source of information."

 

[russ_watters]

i'm failing to see the drastic difference, but if you want to go that route, then I retract my original statement and now "it's a bit premature to assume her statements imply Petraeus is or was her only source of information."

That doesn't make any sense. "assume" and "it implies" are completely different. It makes no sense to put them together in the same sentence.

"Assume" is to believe something to be true regardless of if there is any evidence or not.
"It implies" is just stating that the facts suggest a connection.

So:
1. I don't believe it to be true.
2. There is evidence.

So "assume" has no place there at all. You're trying to put words in my mouth. Stop.

 

[MarneMath]

Once again, I fail to see the drastic difference and to be honest I care for it little. I think most people got the point I was making. So, can we move on? If not, feel free to make a new thread arguing the merits of the word assumed over implied. I won't be there, but if it makes you feel better, feel free too!