Confusion about greater variance in the numerator for F ratio

In summary: The random variables x and y in the sample each contribute to the sample variance.In summary, the conversation discusses the F ratio and its relationship to the F distribution. The theory states that the F ratio is formed by taking the ratio of the variances of two random samples drawn from two different normally distributed populations with equal variance. The conversation also addresses the question of whether the larger variance should always be put on top when calculating the F ratio. It is clarified that this is a matter of convenience, and that consistency should be maintained when choosing which variance to put on top. It is also explained that the x and y of each sample do not have their own variances, but rather contribute to the overall sample variance.
  • #1
dhiraj
4
0
Hi,

I am studying about F ratio and how, as a random variable, it follows F Distribution. So let me explain what confuses me.

This is what the theory says -- We draw two random samples $sample_x$ and $sample_y$ from two different Normally distributed populations with equal variance $\sigma^2$. Let the sample variances of these samples be $s^2_x$ and $s^2_y$ respectively. The sample sizes for $sample_x$ is $n_x$ and the sample size for $sample_y$ is $n_y$. Then if we form the random variable $\frac{\sigma^2_x}{\sigma^2_y}$ , such that the greater variance (whichever is the greater variance in that sample pair) must appear appear as the numerator. This is what I am not able to understand.

If it's a random variable for the sampling distribution for that ratio -- it means , if we draw a random sample pair (x,y) with fixed sizes $n_x$ and $n_y$ many many times from their respective parent populations (say we do it 1000 times e.g.), we will get 1000 pairs of variances i.e. ($s^2_x$,$s^2_y$). Now if we have to draw histogram for F distribution , we have to calculate 1000 numbers (ratios) out of each of the 1000 variance pairs ($s^2_x$,$s^2_y$). And the theory says that the greater variance has to appear as numerator in the ratio. Now how can it be fixed? Across all the 1000 pairs it may change, in some of the pairs the sample x (the first) may have higher variance, and in some of them the sample y (the second) can have the greater variance. If we have to have a common fixed formula for the random variable (supposedly $\frac{\sigma^2_x}{\sigma^2_y}$ ), how can it change from pair to pair? It has to remain fixed for all the 1000 instances. This is my dilemma.

Can you try to explain?

Thanks,
Dhiraj
 
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  • #2
Hi dhiraj! Welcom to MHB! (Smile)

We don't have to put the largest variance on top - it's a convenience.

Note that if the variances are the same, we have:
$$F=\frac{\sigma_x^2}{\sigma_y^2}=1$$
If the variances are different, we will either have $F>1$ or $F<1$.
It's just that typical $F$-tables only list $F$-values greater than $1$, which makes sense because we can also look up $\frac 1 F$, which is what we have if we put the other variance on top.

So yes, we should always put the same variance on top, because we should indeed be consistent.
And initially (or afterwards) we might make an 'educated guess', which variance we think will be bigger, and put it on top, just so we get 'nice' numbers (that are mostly greater than $1$).
 
  • #3
"Across all the 1000 pairs it may change, in some of the pairs the sample x (the first) may have higher variance, and in some of them the sample y (the second) can have the greater variance."
You seem to be under the impression that the "x" and "y" of each sample has its own "variance". That is not true. The probability distribution for x has a single variance and the probability distribution for y has a single variance.
 

FAQ: Confusion about greater variance in the numerator for F ratio

What is the F ratio?

The F ratio, also known as the F statistic, is a statistical measure used in analysis of variance (ANOVA) to compare the variability between groups to the variability within groups. It is used to determine whether the means of different groups are significantly different from each other.

What does it mean to have a greater variance in the numerator for the F ratio?

In ANOVA, the numerator of the F ratio represents the variability between groups, while the denominator represents the variability within groups. A greater variance in the numerator means that the differences between the means of the groups are larger, indicating a potential difference between the groups being compared.

Why is there confusion about greater variance in the numerator for F ratio?

There may be confusion about this concept because people may mistakenly believe that a larger F ratio (numerator) automatically means a significant result. However, the significance of the F ratio also depends on the sample size and the variability within groups, which is represented by the denominator.

How does the F ratio relate to the F distribution?

The F ratio is calculated by dividing the between-group variance by the within-group variance. This ratio follows the F distribution, which is a probability distribution used to determine the probability of obtaining a certain F ratio by chance. The shape of the F distribution depends on the degrees of freedom, which are determined by the sample size and number of groups in the ANOVA.

What are some factors that can affect the F ratio?

The F ratio can be affected by various factors, such as the sample size, the number of groups being compared, and the variability within groups. Additionally, the F ratio can be influenced by the type of ANOVA being used (e.g. one-way, two-way), the assumptions being met, and the statistical power of the test.

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