Convert 1 phase to 3 phase by using an old washing machine

[solvejskovlund]

We were in the process of going off grid when a tree fell over our power line. Hence we got off grid before we were ready as we didn't want to repair the power line. Now everything in the house runs on solar power, except for the well pump. The problem with the well pump is that it is a 3 phase motor. The solar inverter does not provide 3 phase power. I tried to get the pump up from the well, but it seems stuck. Hence this needs to find a solution by only having access to the 3 leads that goes 60m down the well.

I did order a VFD, thinking it will be able create 3phase from the 1phase inverter. But delivery keeps being delayed. So I went to the dump and found a washing machine, thinking I would find a suitable capacitor I could put between two of the leads going down to the pump. However, what I found looks like a VFD. I'm thinking this could be used in a better way than by just using the capacitor (which I think is too large, and may not work as the well is 60m deep.)

The three phase power provided by the power company was 240V between each of the three leads. I think this is what is called a delta configuration. Frequency was 50Hz. Hence that is what I would like to recreate.

The card I think is a VFD from the washing machine has two grey wires which I'm sure is the 1 phase input. It has a ground wire that connects to the washing machine chassis, it has a connector with 5 red wires which goes to the machine control panel and a connector with 6 yellow wires which goes to the motor. Among the 6 yellow wires there is 5.3ohm (in the motor) between all of the three leads labled 1, 2 and 3. I think these goes to the coils. There is 112ohm between #4 and #5 which goes to the end of the motor. I think this may be a speed sensor. #6 goes to the motor casing, hence I labeled it ground.

I think this thing will output 3 phase 200V-240V at 50Hz on the yellow cables labled 1,2 and 3, from the input of 1 phase 230V on the grey wires, if I just manage to manipulate the red wires correctly. Does anyone have a clue on how to do this?

The board is labeled 4321-99-100. It comes from a electrolux washing machine.
According to energy meter, the well pump consumed about 850w. Typical runtime is about 30s.

 

[Averagesupernova]

I would be curious to see the original control for the pump. You say the pump has three leads. Is there a ground lead in addition to the three leads?

 

[hutchphd]

Also they seem to be pretty cheap on EBay (so you could have spares if you get it working )
REVISED
https://picclick.co.uk/Zanussi-Electrolux-Washing-Machine-PCB-4321-99-100-or-332815689331.htmlHaven't found a schematic..usually the wiring diagram on the machine will indicate stuff.

 

[solvejskovlund]

Yes there is ground in addition to the 3 phase leads in the original motor control

 

[Averagesupernova]

Do you have a pic of the pump controller? How deep is this well?

 

[anorlunda]

When I read your question, it made me think of running your 3 phase motor as a BLDC motor using a BLDC controller, and skipping your inverter.

Is it an induction motor? BLDC motors are usually synchronous motors.

A VFD is very close to a BLDC motor controller. However, the specific voltages and currents need to be considered so it is not guaranteed that a specific VFD or BLCD controller will work with that motor. For example, can that Electrolux controller provide 850 w?

Edit: Whoops, I just found another source that says you can't use VFD or BLDC on induction motors. You need to know the type of pump motor.

 

[Averagesupernova]

Do you have a good reason to believe the pump is actually 3 phase? Three conductors plus a ground going down the hole is not a reason.

 

[solvejskovlund]

I have never seen the well pump. I don't know what kind it is. It was down there when we moved in. All I know is the cable going down there and the power they used to have. Seller claimed the well was 60m deep. I haven't measured the depth. But it is to deep and narrow to be able to see down there.

I know the pump is 3 phase because it did only run when provided power from all 3 leads of the 3 phase power line. In this area it's quite normal to have 3 phase into the house. Control: L1-L2 = 240V, L2-L3 = 240V, L1-L3 = 240V.

The power company has a digital meter where the power line came into the house. By pressing a button I could make it display total power consumed, current amps on each of the leads (L1, L2, L3), and current power consumption. When planning our solar system I used that meter to check how much power each device (well pump, stove, fridge, water heater, computers... ) in the house used - when working and total over 24hours of (our) normal usage. I did this by disconnecting everything but the device in question.

Here are pictures of the washing machine motor:

Edit: On top of the well is a start/stop switch with a circuit breaker. It is dialed into 4A. It is exactly this model: https://www.newark.com/schneider-electric/gv2me10/motor-starter/dp/18M2079

 

[Rive]

On top of the well is a start/stop switch with a circuit breaker. It is dialed into 4A. It is exactly this model:

Please check if there is a big capacitor around that breaker/switch. If no cap, then it's indeed three phase.

Regarding the idea about the washing machine controller: just don't. With not knowing the type (requirements) of the motor down the well you should get a proper VFD, with decent reserves (!) and protection (!) to remain on the safe side.

I tried to get the pump up from the well, but it seems stuck.

Regardless the electrical issues it may be better to check that well properly. Not necessarily now, but keep it on tab.

 

[Dullard]

Regarding the 'capacitor':

I've made 'hillbilly 3-phase' (in a pinch) by using a capacitor to 'synthesize' a 3rd phase. My experience is that you can 'run' a motor that way (or on just 2 phases), but you can't reliably 'start' it from a dead stop. Most of my 'applications' required the use of a rope to establish the preferred direction of rotation before power was applied. Also - the 'synthesized' phase will (unavoidably) be of lower amplitude than the 2 'real' legs - that can be tough on a fully loaded motor.

 

[Averagesupernova]

@Rive is on the right track. If you for sure know you are served by actual three phase power then it likely is a three phase pump. However, just because you have a contactor designed for three phase does not mean it is being used that way. A typical single phase well pump motor has a starting capacitor on top, not in the well on the motor. This requires 3 current carrying conductors plus a ground. At a glance one could assume with a cable going down the hole that that arrangement is feeding three phase to the pump when it is not. Single phase will have a starting capacitor with a relay or contactor to switch out the starting capacitor the same way a central air conditioning compressor does. Just make sure you really have what you think you do before you go to a bunch of work needlessly.

 

[solvejskovlund]

Please check if there is a big capacitor around that breaker/switch. If no cap, then it's indeed three phase.

Regarding the idea about the washing machine controller: just don't. With not knowing the type (requirements) of the motor down the well you should get a proper VFD, with decent reserves (!) and protection (!) to remain on the safe side.

As I said, it is 3 phase. Some people here need evidence for that before they hopefully will get back on topic.

A VFD is ordered, as I said. With express delivery it should have been here early February... We're still without water in the tap. Hence I'm looking for a way to get water running while waiting for the VFD.

Regarding the 'capacitor':

I've made 'hillbilly 3-phase' (in a pinch) by using a capacitor to 'synthesize' a 3rd phase. My experience is that you can 'run' a motor that way (or on just 2 phases), but you can't reliably 'start' it from a dead stop. Most of my 'applications' required the use of a rope to establish the preferred direction of rotation before power was applied. Also - the 'synthesized' phase will (unavoidably) be of lower amplitude than the 2 'real' legs - that can be tough on a fully loaded motor.

I don't think the motor needs much load. It pumped water pressure fast to 6 bar with 3 phase. If I just set the pressure switch to cut at 3 bar, the load will be significantly less. Also, when it starts, it's because the water pressure is low, hence the load at start will be significantly less than the load at stop. From that, there is a chance the capacitor hack will work. It's worth a try for a few seconds as long as I have the 4amp fuse, and a water pressure meter. What size capacitor should I try? I suppose the 470uF in this washing machine is too large? (Where do I typically find such at the dump?)

@Rive is on the right track. If you for sure know you are served by actual three phase power then it likely is a three phase pump. However, just because you have a contactor designed for three phase does not mean it is being used that way. A typical single phase well pump motor has a starting capacitor on top, not in the well on the motor. This requires 3 current carrying conductors plus a ground. At a glance one could assume with a cable going down the hole that that arrangement is feeding three phase to the pump when it is not. Single phase will have a starting capacitor with a relay or contactor to switch out the starting capacitor the same way a central air conditioning compressor does. Just make sure you really have what you think you do before you go to a bunch of work needlessly.

It would be a huge surprise if they've cut one lead of a 3 phase power line, to recreate a 3rd phase by a capacitor from two leads. And if they did it that way, the motor would run when I provide 1 phase power to two of the leads, which it doesn't. (I did try that when testing for power consumption.)Please stay on topic from now on
How could I get a temporary solution to run the pump while waiting for the VFD? Capacitor was what I was looking for in the washing machine, when I found the controller. If the controller burns out, it's not a huge loss. I just have no idea what to do with the red lines (and possible the two yellow lines that I think might be a speed sensor). Most probably one of the red lines tells direction of motor. The others probably dictates the speed, hopefully in a simple way.

 

[berkeman]

Please stay on topic from now on

Please check your attitude at the door. People here are trying to help you.

Rotten luck about that tree taking out your powerlines, BTW. Sorry to hear that.

 

[Averagesupernova]

It would be a huge surprise if they've cut one lead of a 3 phase power line, to recreate a 3rd phase by a capacitor from two leads.

Of course they wouldn't. That's stupid and you missed the point. The scenario I describe is all single phase.

Capacitor was what I was looking for in the washing machine, when I found the controller. If the controller burns out, it's not a huge loss. I just have no idea what to do with the red lines (and possible the two yellow lines that I think might be a speed sensor). Most probably one of the red lines tells direction of motor. The others probably dictates the speed, hopefully in a simple way.

As someone else said, just don't. Forget about using the washing machine control. By the time you get it working if at all, your VFD will have arrived. If you want to pump water you will have to fool the pump by using a start/run capacitor. Good luck. No one here will spec the size starting capacitor to use to kick start the pump. You say you will have the pump lightly loaded, but I doubt it. You are pumping against 60 meters head pressure before you have water at the surface. Good luck.

 

[berkeman]

A VFD is ordered, as I said. With express delivery it should have been here early February... We're still without water in the tap.

Do you have tracking information for the package? Especially if you ordered it with express delivery, they should be able to give you a tracking number for it so you can have an idea of the actual ETA.

 

[Rive]

I'm looking for a way to get water running while waiting for the VFD.

Try to find some equipment-lending company and borrow a three phase generator. That's the fastest and safest way.
This whole washing machine idea is just ... dunno. Suicidal? Something like that.

 

[solvejskovlund]

Do you have tracking information for the package? Especially if you ordered it with express delivery, they should be able to give you a tracking number for it so you can have an idea of the actual ETA.

They haven't shipped it yet.

I found this site. Another controller but control signal might be pwm, where duty cycle is the important factor. Wonder what I have that could make a pwm signal...

 

[Tom.G]

The photo you posted of the washing machine motor states 300Hz on the name plate.

Your power and the well motor are 60Hz.

Conclusion: the two are not compatible!

If you really need the well water right away, the suggestion by @Rive to rent a generator is the most practical... and good well be the cheapest in the long run.

(If you can't get the motor out of the well now, how do you expect to get it out when all of its 'Magic Smoke' escapes due to your random tests?)

Sorry for coming across as a bit snarky, we are all trying to avoid causing life-ending damage to the motor.

Please keep us updated on the project, that way others can learn too!

Cheers,
Tom

 

[jim mcnamara]

Guessing will cause more delays and the potential to damage. There should be a document on file as part of the sale of the property that amounts to a what is called a well permit in English speaking countries. It will have associated paperwork like specifications of the pump, well water test results, etc. Base your decisions on the document. Not what you guess.

 

[jedishrfu]

It seems this topic has run its course and there is little more that can be done to help remotely on PF.

Personally, I would suggest getting a qualified well repair person out to replace the whole assembly. If something like this failed now, it will likely fail again in the near term.

Time to thank everyone who responded to the OP and thanks to the OP for presenting his problem to us.

Closing thread now, before someone gets a charge out of it.

Jedi