Did British soldiers abuse Iraqi teenagers in Basra in 2004?

[Bilal]

This video is in the news so I expect that people knew about it.

It shows the abuse of Iraqi teenagers by British soldiers in Basra in 2004. Here is the link from BBC:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4705482.stm


From BBC:
Sunday, 12 February 2006,

Tony Blair has said claims of abuse by soldiers "will be investigated" after images that appeared to show UK troops beating Iraqi youths were published.
The News of the World has published pictures from a video the newspaper says was shot in southern Iraq in 2004.

Here is the link of video:

http://astream.com/links/notw/together_300.asx

 

[Hurkyl]

Law of Truly Large Numbers

What was the point of this? Someone alledgedly did something wrong, and they're being investigated. Why is it worth starting a thread about it?

 

[Bilal]

Read Journal Not only that, but the voices are fake, they are dubbed in. The ones speaking English have a foreign accent. Something only a native speaker would notice, most likely.

This doesn't meet criteria for a thread.

I apologize because I did not explain the previous post. I think that people already knew about it.

The person who speaks could be a Dutch journalist.

I found this on the top of my posts:

Warn: (73%)

Is that means I will be banned or what?

 

[Evo]

I apologize because I did not explain the previous post. I think that people already knew about it.

I found this on the top of my posts:

Warn: (73%)

Is that means I am closed to be banned or what?

We're implementing new guidelines for P&WA, because of the nature of politics and the fact it can be very emotional, bans may be for as little as 3 days, just to get the member to re-think things. So, they're more like "mini-vacations".

I'm a sucker for apologies too, ask Art. If I issue a warning and you nicely convince me you had no bad intentions, or that I misunderstood, I am likely to remove it. If the behavior is repeated, the warning can be re-applied and doubled. The purpose of warnings is to let members know what is and is not acceptable. It is not for the purpose of banning a member. The only members that get permanently banned are the ones that repeatedly refuse to adhere to the guidelines.

 

[Bilal]

We're implementing new guidelines for P&WA, because of the nature of politics and the fact it can be very emotional, bans may be for as little as 3 days, just to get the member to re-think things. So, they're more like "mini-vacations".

I'm a sucker for apologies too, ask Art. If I issue a warning and you nicely convince me you had no bad intentions, or that I misunderstood, I am likely to remove it. If the behavior is repeated, the warning can be re-applied and doubled. The purpose of warnings is to let members know what is and is not acceptable. It is not for the purpose of banning a member. The only members that get permanently banned are the ones that repeatedly refuse to adhere to the guidelines.

I am really depressed!

Two days ago, they gave me the last warning in Islamic discussion forum because I defended Denmark!

Today they gave me a warning in Islamic – Palestinian (Hamas) discussion forum because I tried to convince them that the Palestinian Christian as the greatest heroes!

And I came to PF to get the warning!

So nobody accept me

 

[alexandra]

This video is in the news so I expect that people knew about it.

It shows the abuse of Iraqi teenagers by British soldiers in Basra in 2004. Here is the link from BBC:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4705482.stm


From BBC:
Sunday, 12 February 2006,



Here is the link of video:

http://astream.com/links/notw/together_300.asx

I saw an extract from the video on TV news earlier tonight. It is really very difficult to watch - the soldiers really lay into these teenagers, and some of the language was censored on the news.

I think one of the Political Science implications of this behaviour (if the video is confirmed to be bona fide) is perhaps how brutalising the experience of occupation may be to soldiers - so that they lose control and start acting contrary to the codes of conduct stipulated by the army.

Another interesting aspect of this video is that while the British forces have been held up as behaving in a more restrained, professional manner than other forces occupying Iraq, this video seems to provide further evidence that this is not the case.

 

[Evo]

I am really depressed!

Two days ago, they gave me the last warning in Islamic discussion forum because I defended Denmark!

Today they gave me a warning in Islamic – Palestinian (Hamas) discussion forum because I tried to convince them that the Palestinian Christian as the greatest heroes!

And I came to PF to get the warning!

So nobody accept me

Aww, you still have hope here. Actually, being located in Palestine, your viewpoint is valued. It appears you are willing to abide by the rules, and that is what matters.

 

[Bilal]

I saw an extract from the video on TV news earlier tonight. It is really very difficult to watch - the soldiers really lay into these teenagers, and some of the language was censored on the news.

I think one of the Political Science implications of this behaviour (if the video is confirmed to be bona fide) is perhaps how brutalising the experience of occupation may be to soldiers - so that they lose control and start acting contrary to the codes of conduct stipulated by the army.

Another interesting aspect of this video is that while the British forces have been held up as behaving in a more restrained, professional manner than other forces occupying Iraq, this video seems to provide further evidence that this is not the case.

The Israeli soldiers had beaten me in the same manner when I was 15 years old. You can not imagine how “the hell” my feelings were.

In first time, they found me in the farm out of my town, while they had already asked people to stay at their houses (curfew). 3 soldiers started to beat me … but other kind soldier rejected to join them and asked them to leave me after 4 horrible hours. I never forget my lovely dog in that time. He rejected to leave me alone.

The second time, 2 soldiers belong to the ‘’Death unit’’, they followed a guy to kill him, but he succeeded to run away. So they retuned back to my house and they started to hit me on my face by the M19.

 

[Gokul43201]

I am really depressed!

Two days ago, they gave me the last warning in Islamic discussion forum because I defended Denmark!

Today they gave me a warning in Islamic – Palestinian (Hamas) discussion forum because I tried to convince them that the Palestinian Christian as the greatest heroes!

And I came to PF to get the warning!

So nobody accept me

Bilal : You do not get warnings for holding and expressing views or opinions. All views and opinions that you share, as your point of view, will be accepted as such, so long as it meets some basic requirements (it does not promote hate or violence against some large, generalized populace, etc.)

You get warnings for how you present these views. Rhetoric and unsubstantiated or unreferenced jabs are not considered good form.

 

[Hurkyl]

Another interesting aspect of this video is that while the British forces have been held up as behaving in a more restrained, professional manner than other forces occupying Iraq, this video seems to provide further evidence that this is not the case.

Let me refer you as well to the Law of Truly Large Numbers. We should expect events like this to happen, even when there does not exist any sort of underlying problem.

 

[alexandra]

The Israeli soldiers had beaten me in the same manner when I was 15 years old. You can not imagine how “the hell” my feelings were.

In first time, they found me in the farm out of my town, while they had already asked people to stay at their houses (curfew). 3 soldiers started to beat me … but other kind soldier rejected to join them and asked them to leave me after 4 horrible hours. I never forget my lovely dog in that time. He attacked them, and he rejected to leave me alone.

The second time, 2 soldiers belong to the ‘’Death unit’’, they followed a guy to kill him, but he succeeded to run away. So they retuned back to my house and they started to hit me on my face by the M16.

Bilal, I am so sorry to read this, that this happened to you. Unfortunately, I witnessed similar events in South Africa - after one has lived such a reality, it is impossible to just shut it out when it happens again (and again and, sickeningly, again).

Some of my university classmates were actually tortured when they were detained in apartheid South Africa (they were detained merely for handing out pamphlets! They were called 'terrorists' because they handed out these pamphlets which, by the way, were information pamphlets about an historical massacre that had occurred in the 1960s). Anyway, these classmates held a meeting informing the rest of us of exactly what happened (how they were tortured) when they were finally released (months later). This opened my eyes to what sort of society I was living in, and it changed my life completely. And these were second-hand experiences - I cannot imagine how your personal experiences must have changed you.

 

[Astronuc]

This video is in the news so I expect that people knew about it.

It shows the abuse of Iraqi teenagers by British soldiers in Basra in 2004. Here is the link from BBC (Sunday, 12 February 2006):

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4705482.stm

Video
http://astream.com/links/notw/together_300.asx

When I began writing this post I wrote: "I am with Hurkyl on this. What exactly is the point of the thread." Now with a subsequent post by Bilal, I now understand the significance. Like Alexandra, I sorry for what you experienced Bilal! It certainly is not civilized behavior!

Yes, the video is showing soldiers beating some Iraqis, and the fact that the soldiers drag them out of sight of others and then beat them seems to indicate that the soldiers are aware that what they are doing is wrong and likely a violation of rules of engagement. Basically it is wrong.

I have seen such behavior before, even by police officers against protesters in the US.

It seems the soldiers are retaliating against those they hold responsible for some action, such as throwing stones at the soldiers (?) which seemed to be the case in the very beginning of the video. I am not saying that this is justification for the soldiers' behavior.

 

[Gokul43201]

Let me refer you as well to the Law of Truly Large Numbers. We should expect events like this to happen, even when there does not exist any sort of underlying problem.

The same argument holds for discussing, say a terrorist act involving the hijacking and crashing of civilian aircraft into highly populated buildings in large metropolitan cities, killing thousands of people in the process.

 

[alexandra]

Let me refer you as well to the Law of Truly Large Numbers. We should expect events like this to happen, even when there does not exist any sort of underlying problem.

But we are talking about human beings here, Hurkyl, not numbers. These actions have a lifelong effect on the people concerned (both the ones beaten and those doing the beating): one cannot deal with people as if they were statistical irrelevancies. What have these soldiers taught those teenagers, do you think? These are important issues worthy of discussion, in my opinion.

 

[Hurkyl]

But we are talking about human beings here, Hurkyl, not numbers.

Yes we are. Lots, and lots, and lots, and lots of human beings.

It may be worthwhile to talk about this incident in isolation, but you tried to do significantly more: you made sweeping generalizations about the entirety of the British force in Iraq. And when commenting on that scale, a single example is statistically irrelevant.

 

[Orefa]

you tried to do significantly more: you made sweeping generalizations about the entirety of the British force in Iraq.

I disagree with your interpretation. Alexandra said that the video provides evidence that the British forces should not be held up as behaving in a more restrained, professional manner than other forces occupying Iraq. This is not a sweeping generalization of anything, it means what it says and nothing more. This video is obviously evidence against this previous claim, which is all I've heard him say.

 

[Hurkyl]

This is not a sweeping generalization of anything, it means what it says and nothing more.

Okay, I'll grant that technicality. But it's still akin to taking a single step, and then claiming you've made progress in a marathon. While it may be evidence towards a conclusion, on its own it is a uselessly small piece of evidence.

 

[Art]

I'm a sucker for apologies too, ask Art. If I issue a warning and you nicely convince me you had no bad intentions, or that I misunderstood, I am likely to remove it.

It's all true <blows kiss at Evo >

 

[Art]

Okay, I'll grant that technicality. But it's still akin to taking a single step, and then claiming you've made progress in a marathon. While it may be evidence towards a conclusion, on its own it is a uselessly small piece of evidence.

All the major news channels in England are leading with this story. This alone indicates it is a subject worth discussing. Nobody here has made the claim or come to the conclusion that this is indicative of the approach to policing by the entire British army and so you are arguing against a strawman.

 

[Archon]

Yes we are. Lots, and lots, and lots, and lots of human beings.

You know what? I have a plan. We should build lots and lots and lots and lots of nuclear weapons. Then, when one of them is "accidentally" launched and kills a couple of million people, not only can we blame it on the Law of Truly Large Numbers, but it'll be statistically insignificant. Somebody tell Bush, quick!

 

[ukmicky]

People /soidiers are not designed to work under the level of stress which the armed forces have to live under day after day in Iraq. And so its no surprise that on occasions people act in ways which go against their character ,training and normal human behaviour .It doesn't make their acts of aggression just but it does go someway to explaining their actions, actions which can never be eliminated because in the end were all human and no amount of training can prevent all these acts because actions caused by stress are very hard to control and can never be totally eliminated
Think about it as if it was you,every lump of mud or car you pass could contain a bomb and you know this because the week before someone you knew was blown up in front of you and killed this way. you walk around a corner with the knowledge that a bullet could be and sooner or later will be heading your way and only luck may prevent it from hitting its target, and once again you know this because your friend whom you were chatting with a few nights before was killed this way. Don't condemn the soldier he needs help,condem the people who have put him in a position that has caused him to act in such a way out of character.
I also feel the media have more to answer, how can they release these stories knowing that its going to make matters worse for the soldiers and civilians in Iraq, yes they should inform the relevant people of there findings but hold back on printing the stories until after the conflict when innocent lives won't be put at risk due to there need to make money through the sales of their papers.

 

[Hurkyl]

You know what? I have a plan. We should build lots and lots and lots and lots of nuclear weapons. Then, when one of them is "accidentally" launched and kills a couple of million people, not only can we blame it on the Law of Truly Large Numbers, but it'll be statistically insignificant. Somebody tell Bush, quick!

I have difficulty imagining it could be approved to build a nuclear arsenal so large, that it's appropriate to measure it in terms of "expected damage over 50 years" instead of "odds of a disaster over 50 years" while they're supposed to be sitting in their silos.

It sounds almost as if you think I'm using the Law of Large Numbers to somehow justify what has happened, though I don't understand why you would think that.

 

[Cyrus]

It sounds almost as if you think I'm using the Law of Large Numbers to somehow justify what has happened, though I don't understand why you would think that.

Because it came off sounding like that.

People /soidiers are not designed to work under the level of stress which the armed forces have to live under day after day in Iraq. And so its no surprise that on occasions people act in ways which go against their character ,training and normal human behaviour . It doesn't make their acts of aggression just but it does go someway to explaining their actions, actions which can never be eliminated because in the end were all human and no amount of training can prevent all these acts because actions caused by stress are very hard to control and can never be totally eliminated
Think about it as if it was you,every lump of mud or car you pass could contain a bomb and you know this because the week before someone you knew was blown up in front of you and killed this way. you walk around a corner with the knowledge that a bullet could be and sooner or later will be heading your way and only luck may prevent it from hitting its target, and once again you know this because your friend whom you were chatting with a few nights before was killed this way. Don't condemn the soldier he needs help,condem the people who have put him in a position that has caused him to act in such a way out of character.
I also feel the media have more to answer, how can they release these stories knowing that its going to make matters worse for the soldiers and civilians in Iraq, yes they should inform the relevant people of there findings but hold back on printing the stories until after the conflict when innocent lives won't be put at risk due to there need to make money through the sales of their papers.

I’m sorry, I don't buy that, not for one second. If all the other soldiers did not behave in such a manner, there is no reason to tolerate or excuse their behavior of these few. The other soldiers are under the same amount of stress, but were able to act in a professional manner. If they can't behave as professional soldiers, they should never have volunteered to be a professional soldier. These few disgraced the many, and as a result will make life more miserable for their comrads as the Iraqi's will step up retaliations. If you watch the video, this was a bunch of guys deciding to teach those kids a lesson. That did not look to be stress induced, the guy in the video was cheering them on, laughing. They are no better than the people they fight when they act like that, appalling.

 

[edward]

Yes we are. Lots, and lots, and lots, and lots of human beings.

It may be worthwhile to talk about this incident in isolation, but you tried to do significantly more: you made sweeping generalizations about the entirety of the British force in Iraq. And when commenting on that scale, a single example is statistically irrelevant.

So how many single examples does it take to make something statistically relevant? It is not as if this were the only incident of this nature in Iraq, there have been dozens.

 

[Astronuc]

And when commenting on that scale, a single example is statistically irrelevant.

Unless of course, one or someone whom one loves, e.g. child, spouse, sibling, parent, is the victim of such violence. Then it is all too relevant.

However, the beating of a few Iraqis by a few British soldiers does appear to be a somewhat isolated incident, and not a general patter - nevertheless it will have wide repercussions.

 

[Cyrus]

I was watching NBC nightly news, they just showed the video clip. They had a retired general from the UK army call these soldiers, 'morons.'

 

[Hurkyl]

Because it came off sounding like that.

To him, and apparently to you. I still don't understand it, though.

Yes we are. Lots, and lots, and lots, and lots of human beings.
...
sweeping generalizations about the entirety of the British force in Iraq. And when commenting on that scale, a single example is statistically irrelevant.

Unless of course, one or someone whom one loves, e.g. child, spouse, sibling, parent, is the victim of such violence. Then it is all too relevant.

But, of course, a single family unit is nowhere near the scale of the entirety of the British forces that are occupying Iraq. Did you even read what I wrote?

So how many single examples does it take to make something statistically relevant? It is not as if this were the only incident of this nature in Iraq, there have been dozens.

It would depend on the test being performed, and the level of confidence desired. I don't know.

 

[Cyrus]

Law of Truly Large Numbers

What was the point of this? Someone alledgedly did something wrong, and they're being investigated. Why is it worth starting a thread about it?

It sounds almost as if you think I'm using the Law of Large Numbers to somehow justify what has happened, though I don't understand why you would think that.

It sounds like that, because that's exactly what you just did. You put out the law of large numbers with no context or reason. If you do not want further confusion, do not post abiguously in the future. You fail to see the ramifications of this incident, which goes back to the last thread on no respect for Islam.

 

[Hurkyl]

It sounds like that, because that's exactly what you just did.

True, except for the fact that I did not. Because of the law of large numbers, it is not remarkable that an event like this has occurred. That is a far cry from asserting that these people have done no wrong because of the law of large numbers. (In fact, that assertion seems so strange to me, I actually had trouble typing it. )

You fail to see the ramifications of this incident, which goes back to the last thread on no respect for Islam.

There should not be ramifications. The only reason that this has been made into anything is because people who want to believe something are all too happy to leap to conclusions given insufficient evidence.

If "incidents of such barbarity are not isolated but symptomatic of the military occupation of Iraq", then that is a problem. But one example is not proof of such a bold claim.

This is not "disrespect for Islam" -- it's basic numeracy.

For fun, I did a quick back of the envelope calculation -- at a rate of 4.0 assaults per 1000 persons per year in England, average of 9,000 British soldiers per year, over three years, and assuming that British soldiers treat Iraqis comparably to how Englishmen treat Englishmen, we would expect 108 assaults to have occurred. (Also, 36 robberies, and 5 rapes, and 540 burglaries)


So unless you (or someone else) gives me reason to believe otherwise, I'm going to continue believing that this event has absolutely no significance, except for the fact people are going to blow it way out of proportion.

 

[Cyrus]

What do you mean by ridicule? And why did you change soldiers with people? Soldiers are not civilians, they are trained military professionals who are expected to uptain a level of professionalism in times of war and crisis. I meant what I said, and I said what I meant.

EDIT: now where did that post go? ARG! I am sure it will pop back up.

 

[Gokul43201]

What do you mean by ridicule? And why did you change soldiers with people? Soldiers are not civilians, they are trained military professionals who are expected to uptain a level of professionalism in times of war and crisis. I mean what I said, and I said what I meant.

I'm sorry, I deleted my old post - it showed up weirdly to me, and it wouldn't let me edit it. Apparently, I was the only one having trouble viewing it.

Never mind what I was saying.

 

[ukmicky]

I’m sorry, I don't buy that, not for one second. If all the other soldiers did not behave in such a manner, there is no reason to tolerate or excuse their behavior of these few. The other soldiers are under the same amount of stress, but were able to act in a professional manner. If they can't behave as professional soldiers, they should never have volunteered to be a professional soldier. These few disgraced the many, and as a result will make life more miserable for their comrads as the Iraqi's will step up retaliations. If you watch the video, this was a bunch of guys deciding to teach those kids a lesson. That did not look to be stress induced, the guy in the video was cheering them on, laughing. They are no better than the people they fight when they act like that, appalling.
__________________
.

That is obviously your opinion which you have a right to have .but different people act differently to stress and some cope much better than others and just because there professional soldiers doesn’t mean there not human, subject to a limit ,everyone has a limit. Soldier’s limits are generally higher than you or me however they still have a limit. Pass that limit and even the sanest person can crack up and do things that they would never do under normal circumstances.

A few years back my best friend told me his mother had died, and I couldn’t stop smiling. i didn’t want to smile i knew his mum and was saddened and shocked at what he was telling me but for some reason I couldn’t stop smiling. He knew it was a nervous reaction or something because he knew me however smile I did. Our brains are amazing things but unfortunately they control us rather us control them.

These few disgraced the many, and as a result will make life more miserable for their comrads

No the newspapers have made life more miserable for their comrades. they should have held back with the story and just told those who needed to be told.

 

[Cyrus]

I still don't buy that argument. Its not just my opinion, its the opinion of a retired UK army general who called the soldiers 'morons' on the news today. Who cares how much stress they were under, I don't. That does not excuse them from acting like animals. You did not see other soldiers acting like that, and they were in the same place, at the same time, under the same conditions. They should be thrown in jail for 5-10 years.

A few years back my best friend told me his mother had died, and I couldn’t stop smiling. i didn’t want to smile i knew his mum and was saddened and shocked at what he was telling me but for some reason I couldn’t stop smiling. He knew it was a nervous reaction or something because he knew me however smile I did. Our brains are amazing things but unfortunately they control us rather us control them.

So you and a group of your friends beat him while cursing and laughing at him and filmed it for your personal enjoyment?

No the newspapers have made life more miserable for their comrades. they should have held back with the story and just told those who needed to be told.

The newspapers made the situation worse, but don't be so quick to assume that the Iraqi's did not catch wind of what happened to those boys long before the story broke out. Those boys were not killed which means they came back home with smashed faces, and I promise you word of this spread around town and people heard about the incident.

 

[ukmicky]

So you and a group of your friends beat him while cursing and laughing at him and filmed it for your personal enjoyment?
.

Your evil

 

[Cyrus]

Here, you can watch the Retired General Call them 'morons' for yourself:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11302592/

Play the video.

EDIT: excuse me, Colonel