Difference between d/dt and d(theta)/dt? Why is it dr or ds/dt?

In summary, d/dt represents the derivative of a variable with respect to time, typically indicating the rate of change of that variable over time. In contrast, d(theta)/dt specifically denotes the rate of change of the angle theta with respect to time. The terms dr/dt and ds/dt refer to the rates of change of radial distance (r) and arc length (s), respectively, with respect to time, highlighting the different contexts in which these derivatives are used.
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Anonymous001
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TL;DR Summary
In a physics pdf about kepler laws of motion I found these things. I also solo-learned calculus recently so I am not used to notations.
Screenshot 2023-08-13 150550.png
Screenshot 2023-08-13 150650.png


So, first of all, why and how are we taking the derivative of the vector r or s as d/dt if t is not a parameter of the equations?

Second question is what is the difference between d/dt(r) and d(theta)/dt(r) and also between d/dt(s) and d(theta)/dt(s)? Like, both of these appear at the bottom of the second image (and further in the pdf) and I don't see a difference.

P.S.:I attached the whole file to this post just in case.

Edit: Also, why is the orbit described as R=(r*sin(theta);r*cos(theta))? Isn't that a circle? Shouldn't it be considered an ellipse, parabola or hyperbola or anything else? What I mean is that there is drawn an ellipse but the vector form describes a circle. Why?
 

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Anonymous001 said:
So, first of all, why and how are we taking the derivative of the vector r or s as d/dt if t is not a parameter of the equations?

The planets are moving, i.e. they change position in time ##t##. Therefore ##r\, , \,s,## and ##\theta## change in time, i.e. are functions dependent on time. It is implicitly assumed without noting ##\vec{r}=\vec{r(t)}\, , \,\vec{s}=\vec{s(t)},## and ##\theta=\theta(t).##

Anonymous001 said:
Second question is what is the difference between d/dt(r) and d(theta)/dt(r) and also between d/dt(s) and d(theta)/dt(s)? Like, both of these appear at the bottom of the second image (and further in the pdf) and I don't see a difference.
## \dfrac{d}{dt} f(t) = \dfrac{df(t)}{dt} = f'(t) =\dot{f}(t) ## are all different notations of the derivative of the function ## f=f(t) ## with respect to the variable ##t## that is usually used for time.

Here are even more notations:
https://www.physicsforums.com/insights/the-pantheon-of-derivatives-i/


Anonymous001 said:
Edit: Also, why is the orbit described as R=(r*sin(theta);r*cos(theta))? Isn't that a circle?
It is only a circle if the radius ##r## does not change in time.

Anonymous001 said:
Shouldn't it be considered an ellipse, parabola or hyperbola or anything else? What I mean is that there is drawn an ellipse but the vector form describes a circle. Why?
It describes an ellipse if the radius ##r## changes.
 
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  • #3
fresh_42 said:
The planets are moving, i.e. they change position in time ##t##. Therefore ##r\, , \,s,## and ##\theta## change in time, i.e. are functions dependent on time. It is implicitly assumed without noting ##\vec{r}=\vec{r(t)}\, , \,\vec{s}=\vec{s(t)},## and ##\theta=\theta(t).#### \dfrac{d}{dt} f(t) = \dfrac{df(t)}{dt} = f'(t) =\dot{f}(t) ## are all different notations of the derivative of the function ## f=f(t) ## with respect to the variable ##t## that is usually used for time.

Here are even more notations:
https://www.physicsforums.com/insights/the-pantheon-of-derivatives-i/
It is only a circle if the radius ##r## does not change in time.It describes an ellipse if the radius ##r## changes.
Thanks a lot, it really helped. I would have one more question as I went further into the proof. If ##r## changes in time, why does it say that we use a notation ##L=r^2*\frac{d\theta}{dt}## and ##L## is constant? Why is it constant if ##r## changes in time?
 
  • #4
Anonymous001 said:
Thanks a lot, it really helped. I would have one more question as I went further into the proof. If ##r## changes in time, why does it say that we use a notation ##L=r^2*\frac{d\theta}{dt}## and ##L## is constant? Why is it constant if ##r## changes in time?
##L## does not only depend on ##r.## It also depends on ##\theta .## The combination is constant. It goes like this:

The velocity of the planet is a vector. In our case, a vector in the plane where the planet orbits the sun. It means: two-dimensional. The vectors ##\vec{r}## and ## \vec{s}## build a coordinate system of this plane. We can therefore express the vector ##\vec{v}## by its components, its parts of the vectors ##\vec{r}\, , \,\vec{s}.## The equation is
\begin{align*}
\vec{v}=\dfrac{dr}{dt} \cdot \vec{r} +r\cdot \dfrac{d\theta}{dt} \cdot \vec{s}\tag{2}
\end{align*}
Now, the change of velocity per time is acceleration. This yields (see the calculation in your .pdf)
\begin{align*}
\vec{a}=\underbrace{\left(\dfrac{d^2r}{dt^2}-r\cdot \left(\dfrac{d\theta}{dt}\right)^2\right)}_{=a_1(t)}\cdot \vec{r} +\underbrace{\left(2\cdot \dfrac{d\theta}{dt}\cdot\dfrac{dr}{dt}+r\cdot\dfrac{d^2\theta}{dt^2}\right)}_{=a_2(t)}\cdot \vec{s}\tag{*}
\end{align*}
where ##\dfrac{d^2r}{d^t}=\ddot{r}(t)## and ##\dfrac{d^2\theta}{dt^2}=\ddot{\theta}(t)## are the second derivatives with respect to time.

Next, we look at Newton's law of gravity, where ##G## is the gravitational constant and ##M## the mass of the sun, ##m## the mass of the Earth, and ##\vec{r}## the coordinate direction of the force.
$$
F=-\dfrac{G\cdot M\cdot m}{r^2} \cdot \vec{r}
$$
and his second law of motion, which states that a force is determined by
$$
F=m\cdot \vec{a}
$$
These two equations give us (##m## cancels)
\begin{align*}
-\dfrac{G\cdot M}{r^2}\cdot\vec{r}=\vec{a}
\end{align*}
This means we have two different ways to describe the acceleration
$$
\vec{a}=\left(-\dfrac{G\cdot M}{r^2}\right)\cdot \vec{r}+ 0\cdot \vec{s} =a_1(t)\cdot \vec{r}+a_2(t)\cdot \vec{s}
$$
However, the two directions ##\vec{r}## and ##\vec{s}## form a coordinate system of the plane of motion, the orbital plane. This means we can directly compare their components:
$$
\vec{a}=\underbrace{\left(-\dfrac{G\cdot M}{r^2}\right)}_{=a_1(t)}\cdot \vec{r}+ \underbrace{0}_{=a_2(t)}\cdot \vec{s}
$$
We thus have the two equations
\begin{align*}
-\dfrac{G\cdot M}{r^2}&=a_1(t)=\dfrac{d^2r}{dt^2}-r\cdot \left(\dfrac{d\theta}{dt}\right)^2\tag{3}\\
0&=a_2(t)=2\cdot \dfrac{d\theta}{dt}\cdot\dfrac{dr}{dt}+r\cdot\dfrac{d^2\theta}{dt^2}\tag{4}
\end{align*}
Finally, just for fun, let us differentiate ##r^2\cdot\dfrac{d\theta}{dt}.## This yields by the product (Leibniz) and chain rule
\begin{align*}
\dfrac{d}{dt}\left(r^2\cdot\dfrac{d\theta}{dt}\right)&=\dfrac{d}{dt}(r^2(t))\cdot \dfrac{d\theta}{dt} +r^2(t)\cdot\dfrac{d}{dt}\left(\dfrac{d\theta}{dt}\right)\\
&=2\cdot r(t)\cdot \dfrac{d}{dt}r(t)\cdot\dfrac{d\theta}{dt}+r^2(t)\cdot\dfrac{d^2\theta}{dt^2}\\
&=r(t)\cdot \left(2\cdot \dfrac{d}{dt}r(t)\cdot\dfrac{d\theta}{dt}+r(t)\cdot\dfrac{d^2\theta}{dt^2}\right)\\
&=r(t)\cdot a_2(t) = r(t)\cdot 0 = 0
\end{align*}
This means that ##L:=r^2(t)\cdot\dfrac{d\theta}{dt}## has a zero derivative, i.e. is constant in time. Neither the radius nor the angle is, but ##L## is. Only constant functions have zero derivatives.
 
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FAQ: Difference between d/dt and d(theta)/dt? Why is it dr or ds/dt?

What is the difference between d/dt and d(theta)/dt?

d/dt represents the derivative of a function with respect to time (t), which is a general notation for any variable that changes over time. On the other hand, d(theta)/dt specifically denotes the derivative of the angle (theta) with respect to time, indicating how the angle changes as time progresses. In essence, d/dt can apply to various quantities, while d(theta)/dt is focused solely on angular change.

When should I use d/dt instead of d(theta)/dt?

You should use d/dt when dealing with any variable that changes with respect to time, such as position, velocity, or acceleration. Use d(theta)/dt specifically when you are analyzing rotational motion or angular displacement, where the variable of interest is the angle. The context of the problem determines which notation is appropriate.

What does dr/dt represent?

dr/dt represents the rate of change of the radial distance (r) with respect to time (t). It is commonly used in polar coordinates or when analyzing motion in a radial direction, indicating how the distance from a central point changes over time.

What does ds/dt signify?

ds/dt signifies the rate of change of arc length (s) with respect to time (t). This notation is often used in the context of motion along a path or trajectory, indicating how the distance traveled along that path changes as time progresses. It is particularly useful in analyzing linear motion or curved paths.

Why is it important to distinguish between these derivatives?

Distinguishing between these derivatives is important because they provide specific information about different aspects of motion. Each derivative conveys how a particular quantity changes over time, whether it be linear distance, angular position, or radial distance. Understanding these differences allows for accurate modeling and analysis of physical systems, leading to better predictions and insights in fields such as physics and engineering.

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