Do you think that dragons existed?

[CaptainQuaser]

This is a general opinion comment.

But do you think that dragons existed?

We have fossil evidence of large reptiles (dinosaurs)
there are some theories that they evolved into birds.

Could there have been some giant winged reptile in existence in early human times that survived as legend in so many cultures, and was perhaps hunted to extinction?

Sure, there is currently no fossil record of them, but that doesn't mean much as I am sure the majority of species in history have disappeared without leaving any fossil trace. And I don't think we can completely ignore human history and legends as sketchy as they can sometimes be.

 

[light_bulb]

like a cross between a terradactyl and a lizard? sure

 

[J77]

Fire-breathing? No.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

One interesting bit of speculation has been that in the days of old, dinosaur bones were sometimes found, and lacking any other explanation, these eventually led to the dragon myth. Others argue that it is hard to explain how different cultures such as those in early England and China evolved nearly identical myths.

 

[arildno]

While dinosaur may have BOLSTERED myths about dragons already existing, they would not at all, by themselves, have led to the idea of large FLYING reptiles (where were the wings). It could equally well, or better, led to ideas of large slithering serpents, or other huge land animals.

I believe that humans are primed to regard the power of flight as something "wondrous" whether or not they find any bones in the ground.

Thus, the idea of spectacular, large fliers is something that might predictably create awe in a story-teller's audience (if the story-teller is good, that is).

In essence, the dragon idea is as much dependent on wishful thinking (that we would like there to have existed such awesome creatures once) as on material remains of dinosaurs.

It is implausible that a dinosaur like the pterodactyl would have survived into human times.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Teradachtyl bones could have accounted for the winged dragon myth.

I think the real qustions are: How similar are the descriptions of European and Asian dragons. Next, is there any way to account for this similarity?

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Something else that comes to mind are the hobbits - homoflorensis - who did battle with Komodo dragons that were twenty times their weight. Also, did travellers happen upon these beasts from time to time, and did these encounters evolve into myths?

 

[arildno]

Teradachtyl bones could have accounted for the winged dragon myth.

I think the real qustions are: How similar are the descriptions of European and Asian dragons. Next, is there any way to account for this similarity?

The large, slithering European/Germanic serpents, like Fafnir, have in common with the Chinese dragons that they are wingless, whereas the Chinese dragon has in common the ability to fly with the Romanic batwing dragon.

I'm not sure if the Chinese dragon breathes fire, but neither did the adderwurms like Fafnir.

Now, apart from the wonderment that all people, wherever they live has felt about birds, another animal that is shrouded in myths, legends and tales in almost all cultures, is the serpent. (which can be found anywhere)

Thus, that roughly similar tales of huge serpentine, possibly flying, animals have sprung up in many different parts of the world might as well be because humans are humans and the same types of animals arise the same type of fascination in all humans, and thus prepares the ground for adept story-tellers to weave great tales about wondrous creatures to pay for his next meal.

 

[wolram]

The one i knew could not fly, was rather large and could breath fire
in buckets.

 

[baywax]

There's the possibility that some of the dinosaurs survived the bolide event of 65 million years ago. During the following 65 m years these remaining dinos may have evolved in many different ways with features like wings or gemlike hides on the underbelly.

It was speculated that the "breathing fire" illusion may have come from the fact that something as large as a dinosaur's digestive system would be constantly appearing to "smoke" out of the mouth because of the heat generated by digesting and fermenting food in the stomach.

The tales of humans challenging Dragons/dinos and/or befriending them could come from any age in our past. Then passed along and written in the timeframe of any age.

Encounters with these sometimes crafty, swift (mososaurus) and violent creatures would have spawned several inquiries into technologies that would rid humans of the menace once and for all. Doing so may have required some very interesting technologies that today are seen only as myths, like the dragons themselves.

 

[matthyaouw]

Where are the remains?

 

[arildno]

Again, fire is one of the most spectacular sights we know of from our natural surroundings. It is majestic, beautiful and terribly destructive when uncontrolled.

That command of fire would arouse awe and excitement in listeners is quite probable on this basis.

 

[baywax]

Where are the remains?

Spontanieous combustion.

 

[SGT]

One interesting bit of speculation has been that in the days of old, dinosaur bones were sometimes found, and lacking any other explanation, these eventually led to the dragon myth. Others argue that it is hard to explain how different cultures such as those in early England and China evolved nearly identical myths.

Narwal incisives gave origin to the mith of unicorns.

 

[raolduke]

I remember watching a show about dragons existing - completely theoretical but it was very interesting. I don't know why it would be so awesome if a dinosaur could fly because in my opinion a lizard like that is the perfect human. They existed for millions of years independently of cars, concrete, and town hall meetings. I wish I was a dinosaur.

 

[Moonbear]

It's also not unreasonable to expect that someone finding dinosaur bones, even if it were not something with wings, may have embellished the story of their discovery as it was retold. We all know how modern day urban legends evolve to have different details and variants, so it's not unreasonable to think a story talking about this monster's bones would eventually be distorted to be about seeing the actual monster, and add more and more details about fangs, claws, wings, things to make it sound more exciting as it's retold over and again.

 

[baywax]

I wish I was a dinosaur.

Give it a few more years

 

[K.J.Healey]

Where are the remains?

It's a commonly known fact that Dragons are territorial and will consume their fellow dragon-kin to gain their strength. Thus no remains, except for the last dragon. And he's probably still hiding somewhere.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

It was once suggested by some scientist speaking to Omni Magazine [very pop-sci stuff] that the fire breathing resulted from the spontaneous or other combustion of hydrogen or methane [both naturally occurring] produced by the digestion systems of dragons. I don't remember many details, but the idea was that these were cave dwellers that filled the cave with gases while sleeping. This might account for a means of combustion. Next, many descriptions of dragons suggest that the wings were far too small for flight when compared to the size of the animal, so it was suggested that the protrusions often described on their backs were part of natural storage system for hydrogen, and that essentially dragons were big blimps. It was also suggested that an excess of HCl [commonly found in digestive systems and ultimately the source of the hydrogen for flight] might destroy all remains when the dragon died.

Okay, I know... It's not my idea but it is too fun to not mention!

very late edits

 

[arildno]

It's also not unreasonable to expect that someone finding dinosaur bones, even if it were not something with wings, may have embellished the story of their discovery as it was retold. We all know how modern day urban legends evolve to have different details and variants, so it's not unreasonable to think a story talking about this monster's bones would eventually be distorted to be about seeing the actual monster, and add more and more details about fangs, claws, wings, things to make it sound more exciting as it's retold over and again.

Indeed. Dragons are cool, and we love stories about them, irrespective of any physical "remains" of them.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Happy St. George's Day

St George is celebrated even today as a slayer of dragons.

 

[baywax]

Happy St. George's Day

St George is celebrated even today as a slayer of dragons.

Infamous Italian sculptor Donatello, from the 1300s just before Leonardo and Michaelangelo etc, is noted for his revival of the use of perspective in "Bas Relief".

Donatello learned the technique by studying the ruins of ancient Rome and Greece.

Here is the most famous of his Bas Reliefs showing St. George slaying the dragon.

http://inillotempore.com/blog/images/St_George_and_the_Dragon_Donatello.jpg

You can see how varying the depth of the sculpture gave the illusion of atmospheric perspective. Its hard to make out in the photo but there are hills in the background that fade as they retreat into the atmosphere.

(PS. Donatello, not just another Ninja Turtle )

 

[huggy bear]

everyone needs to read the book http://www.dbskeptic.com/2007/12/29/the-flight-of-dragons-book-review-how-dragons-could-have-evolved-and-existed/" it explains all of these things, and more

 

[huggy bear]

It was once suggested by some scientist speaking to Omni Magazine [very pop-sci stuff] that the fire breathing resulted from the spontaneous or other combustion of hydrogen or methane [both naturally occurring] produced by the digestion systems of dragons. I don't remember many details, but the idea was that these were cave dwellers that filled the cave with gases while sleeping. This might account for a means of combustion. Next, many descriptions of dragons suggest that the wings were far too small for flight when compared to the size of the animal, so it was suggested that the protrusions often described on their backs were part of natural storage system for hydrogen, and that essentially dragons were big blimps. It was also suggested that an excess of HCl [commonly found in digestive systems and ultimately the source of the hydrogen for flight] might destroy all remains when the dragon died.

Okay, I know... It's not my idea but it is too fun to not mention!

very late edits

a lot of this stuff (big blimps, excess of HCl etc.) are in the book mentioned above

also: sorry for the double post

 

[gareth]

I'd like to throw my two cents in here, I became curious recently as to the origins of the Welsh national flag (which has a picture of a large dragon on it).

The dragon is an iconic symbol for Wales and I did a bit of research to find out why, it turns out that when the Romans came over to Wales to kick some ***, they carried with them dragon-like statues/sculptures to scare the opposition. To further enhance the scary-ness they added a kind of a flame thrower inside the dragon's mouth, to carry onto the battlefield.

I know this doesn't explain the origin's of the dragon symbol/legends, but could be another small part of the jigsaw.

"


The Welsh Flag



The Welsh flag has two equal horizontal stripes, white above green, and a large red dragon passant. The dragon standard was perhaps first seen in Britain in the shape of the "draco" a standard carried by the cohorts of the Roman legion. The Romans appear to have been inspired by the dragon standard carried by their Dacian and Parthian enemies and had adopted this device by the third century. Carl Lofmark (see below) argues that the dragon of the cohort was more familiar to the British than was the eagle standard of the legions. As Roman legions withdrew at the end of the fourth century and the British were left alone to face Saxon attacks, the dragon would have been a natural symbol for those who wished to preserve their Romanised way of life against the barbarian invader."

taken from: http://www.data-wales.co.uk/flag.htm

 

[CRGreathouse]

While dinosaur may have BOLSTERED myths about dragons already existing, they would not at all, by themselves, have led to the idea of large FLYING reptiles (where were the wings). It could equally well, or better, led to ideas of large slithering serpents, or other huge land animals.

Of course the Romans (who gave us the word "dragon" via their "draco", itself descended from the Greek $\delta\rho\alpha\kappa o\nu$ "drakon") did see the dragon ('their dragon'?) as a slithering serpent that wrapped itself around trees and harbored a seething hatred toward elephants.

 

[CRGreathouse]

gareth: As a former resident of Wales, I can tell you that the red Welsh dragon on the flag is typically juxtaposed with the white English dragon which it is supposed to defeat. The Welsh flag was one of the oldest flags in the world (flags as a national symbol being a creation of the last thousand years), though it wasn't made official until fairly recently. I do think they lost priority as the very first, but they were close.

 

[baywax]

Of course the Romans (who gave us the word "dragon" via their "draco", itself descended from the Greek $\delta\rho\alpha\kappa o\nu$ "drakon") did see the dragon ('their dragon'?) as a slithering serpent that wrapped itself around trees and harbored a seething hatred toward elephants.

Thus, by some fluke of nature, or unnatural union between dragon and elephant, today we have "Dumbo", the flying elephant.

 

[thomasxc]

dragons visited from another dimension, stayed a while, then left. or so my counsin thinks

 

[arildno]

dragons visited from another dimension, stayed a while, then left. or so my counsin thinks

If your cousin is 5 or 6 years old, I'll regard him as a bright lad.

 

[thomasxc]

no, he's in his mid twenties. he's mentally retarded and bi polar.

 

[baywax]

I would suggest, as has been suggested, that the myth of the dragon extends from some discoveries in the distant past of large lizards or possibly remnant sea creatures that could have survived the bolide incident that scathed the Earth 65 million years ago and reportedly "wiped out the dinosaurs". Its conceivable that some survived, especially in the oceans, and lived and reproduced up until such a time that humans had evolved to make records of these anomalies.

Whether the "remnant dinos" had major halitosis and smoke and fumes from their digestive tracts, spurring stories of "fire breathing dragons" or not remains a mystery and pure speculation.

 

[baywax]

dragons visited from another dimension, stayed a while, then left. or so my counsin thinks

Sort of like honourable people and the Mayan civilization.

 

[thomasxc]

wha?

 

[baywax]

wha?

They've all come and gone.