Does mass increase in SR mean higher gravity in GR?

In summary, according to SR a mass that experiences a gain of kinetic energy (eg. by absorption of a photon) experiences an increase in its mass (relativistic mass). GR says that relativistic mass contributes to gravitation the same as rest mass. I am not adept enough in GR mathematics to elaborate, but I think that is essentially the principle.
  • #36
I'm pretty sure everyone's probably very tired of this thread by now, but I can't resist One More comment.

It seems to me that the best approach to considering what happens to gravity at high velocities is to go back to the idea of exploring "tidal gravity", the Riemann tensor, at high velocities, due to the aforementioned problems of dealing with the traditional notion of gravity as a "force".

This approach has the definite advantage that it can be done at a point - one does not need any reference to the outside world or dependence on an external global coordinate system to know what tidal forces one is experiencing, one can measure the tidal forces directly. (Except for the problem of rotation, which I'll get into).

The biggest stumbling block I have here is the issue of how to deal with rotation. Some relativly simple calculations can give the tidal forces on a body moving at relativistic velocities relative to a large mass. One needs to compute the Riemann tensor rather than the connection coefficients, then the tidal forces can be neatly summed up by the following matrix:

[tex]E^a{}_b = R^a{}_{bcd} u^b u^d [/tex]
where u^x is the four-velocity of the moving object.

The main difficulty in making this approach rigorous is dealing with eliminating rotation from the coordinate systems used, so that "centrifugal forces" from a rotating coordinate system don't get confused with the actual components of the tidal force.

Thus, we can directly measure the tidal forces we experience due to passing close to a body moving at relativisitic velocities directly if, and only if, we have zero rotational angular momentum - the later is not a very stringent condition, but it does mean we can't quite ignore the rest of the universe, we have to pay enough attention to it to be able to say that we aren't rotating.

Another thing which one can calculate in principle is the total amount of momentum transferred to a body by an object "flying by".

So if one was initially at rest, and an object came whizzing by at ultra-relativistic speeds, then left for infinity again, it's reasonable to ask what velocity one has after the body has left. Space and space-time should be perfectly flat when the massive body has "passed through", so there shouldn't be any ambiguity in this question.
 
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  • #37
It was mentioned earlier in the thread that if you didn't account for the Energy required to reach that velocity you would violate thermodynamics.

What if this relative mass was seen as adding mass from one side, and subtracting mass from the other? So essentialy a fast moving body would pull things stronger then a rest mass body from one side and weaker, (or possibly negative) from the other side?
 
  • #38
Also, from the first example, that would mean the ball on a stick would have no effect on the moon if it was being swung parallel to the moon. If the ball was being swung so that on one side of the orbit it was moving directly towards the moon and the other directly away, then the overall result would still be null because it would pull one direction and push the other.
 
  • #39
Maybe this question has already been answered but: Assuming two particles (X1 and X2) moving at relativistic velocities relative to each other.

X1 --->
|
d
|
<---X2


Is there some distance d and some less than c velocity that X1 and X2 orbit each other?



Cheers,
Bert
 
  • #41
Bert:

Maybe this question has already been answered but: Assuming two particles (X1 and X2) moving at relativistic velocities relative to each other.

X1 --->
|
d
|
<---X2


Is there some distance d and some less than c velocity that X1 and X2 orbit each other?

Cheers,
Bert



DaleSpam:
Not due to SR effects.



Bert:
What about GR effects increases mass increases the gravity?
 
  • #42
hcm1955 said:
What about GR effects increases mass increases the gravity?
Mass isn't the source of gravity in GR. The source of gravity is the stress-energy tensor:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stress-energy_tensor

As you can see from the link, energy (proportional to mass) is only one component of 10 independent components. As you add energy to a particle by accelerating it not only do you increase the energy component, but you also increase the momentum component. The net effect is that you don't get increased gravity.
 

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