Does prestige of school matter for post-graduate research positions?

[ProfuselyQuarky]

Apparently I always find myself back here when bad things happen lol..like damn it’s been six years.

Recent college graduate. I want to take a year or two working and honing my skills before graduate school. One, because I’m tired and need the break but also, two, for reasons beyond my control, my last two years of undergrad were the worst years of my life due to constant tragedy and health issues and freak accidents and my GPA is legitimately horrific (as in, sub 3.0….I know I’ve sobbed a lot about it. Mentally I’m in a better place and have come to terms with it though).

I do have quite a bit of research experience though, and I’ve had research tech/analyst offers from a couple schools. One is a good public school 10 mins from my parents’ house. The other is an extremely prestigious private about 1.5hrs away. Obviously, even as a full time employee, I’ll be making very little so a 1.5hr commute one way 5 days a week (or a need to relocate) is a lot.

I’m wondering if institutional prestige of my first employer will matter in terms of grad school since I’m not even a student there? Just a lowly employee. Both research opportunities are interesting to me so that is not an issue.

I’m trying to do damage control and remain optimistic given my circumstances so I’ll do whatever it takes to get into a PhD program, even if it means a 3 hr drive daily is worth it. Is it?

 

[jedishrfu]

Sorry to hear about your travails in life, its something we all go through in varying degrees sustained only by the hope of better times. With respect to schools, I think prestige does matter especially for your first job. After you've gained some work experience, the school and grades matter less.

Often given two candidates with similar skills, the tipping point will be the school prestige. This is true in the secular world and in the academic world of graduate studies. However, I do know that hiring managers will favor candidates from the school they graduated from for secular jobs. I guess because they know the school well enough. Its also true that they won't reject a candidate from a better known school like Harvard, Yale or MIT... (insert your school here) and may choose them over other candidates.

In my case, I got burnout working 30+ hours per week, going to school full time and decided to graduate early and get a better paying job. After about 5 years, I went back to school for physics but realized my math skills had eroded to the point where it made sense to switch to CompSci which was a strength I acquired from work.

Many may years later, while working at a university I tried to get into a graduate program in math taking one course at a time (staff education benefit) but found I had to compete with all the recent undergrads in applying to my own school, taking GREs... THere were no exceptions for employees which was sad because basically we had a benefit we couldn't use as our university was the only game in town (the nearest other grad school was more than 50 miles away).

Remain optimistic and keep trying but be adaptable and pragmatic too. If you don't succeed find a way to take refresher courses to build up your academics and try again. Life also has a way of injecting itself in there too and you may decide that other things take precedence. Hang in there, we hope to hear you found a path to your goal.

 

[ProfuselyQuarky]

With respect to schools, I think prestige does matter especially for your first job. After you've gained some work experience, the school and grades matter less.
….
Remain optimistic and keep trying but be adaptable and pragmatic too. If you don't succeed find a way to take refresher courses to build up your academics and try again.

Thank you for your advice and personal insight. I know I know my course material but it simply just did not translate to raw grades and, because of this, I’m very well aware of my inferior place in terms of being a potential PhD program admit (or not). I don’t blame anyone for it.

So, I gather you recommend that I go for spending the next two years working at the more prestigious institution? The difference between the two locations is equivalent to, say, MIT and your general state school, even though my responsibilities and opportunities for co-authorship with the PIs are basically the same. I’m very willing to do the longer commute if so!

Other than that, I’m going to focus on remediating some of the chronic issues that served as obstacles during undergrad so that I can prove they won’t be an uncontrollable issue again, along with focusing on getting the best GRE score physically possible.

 

[MidgetDwarf]

Thank you for your advice and personal insight. I know I know my course material but it simply just did not translate to raw grades and, because of this, I’m very well aware of my inferior place in terms of being a potential PhD program admit (or not). I don’t blame anyone for it.

So, I gather you recommend that I go for spending the next two years working at the more prestigious institution? The difference between the two locations is equivalent to, say, MIT and your general state school, even though my responsibilities and opportunities for co-authorship with the PIs are basically the same. I’m very willing to do the longer commute if so!

Other than that, I’m going to focus on remediating some of the chronic issues that served as obstacles during undergrad so that I can prove they won’t be an uncontrollable issue again, along with focusing on getting the best GRE score physically possible.

Maybe a MS in Physics at a state school with high gpa + good GRE Scores + experience?

I know more than a dozen who went this route, and ended up at good schools for PhD...

Something to consider.

Some state schools have a low GPA admittance (2.7+), which could serve in your favor...

 

[jedishrfu]

Going the route of an MS in Physics is a good way to get you back on track gradewise but be aware once you do get into a PhD program they may want you to retake some courses that they feel are inferior or incomplete.

Do you know why your studies did not produce the grades? test anxiety? studying to your strengths and not to your weaknesses? These have been my issues from time to time.

 

[Choppy]

With the caveat that I have a Canadian perspective, I wouldn't put too much weight in "prestige," particularly if you're not actually earning a degree from the institution. Prestige is very difficult to measure objectively, and you don't want to fall into the trap of assuming that a name will do any heavy lifting for you. If graduate admissions committees even factor in your work experience into the admission process, they'll be looking more at what you've accomplished than the name of the employer.

A difference of more than 2.5 hours of commute time per day on the other hand, is a big deal. That's over 625 hours per year where you're not going to be all that productive. If you figure a 3 credit-hour course amounts to about 45 hours of lecture time, and a typical student would spend about twice the number of lecture hours studying that's about 135 hours of time investment per course. That's almost a full semester worth of study time that you're giving up. Not to mention these things can compound. For example, a 10 minute car commute is the kind of distance most people can cover with a bicycle on a good day. That means you've already had a workout once you get home, so you save another hour at the gym. Not to mention you've spent less money on fuel and vehicle maintenance, and reduced your carbon footprint.

All things being equal, sure, go with the higher prestige position. But I wouldn't give up a very measurable life advantage for it.

 

[Vanadium 50]

Maybe a MS in Physics at a state school with high gpa + good GRE Scores + experience?

This is very common advice. I am extremely skeptical of it. If this worked often, our graduate schools would be teeming with students who followed this path. They aren't. It is also unlikely to be fully funded, and unlikely to shave any time off the PhD. Am I going to say it never works? Of course not. But this comes up as advice a lot, and I am just not seeing it work. It's more a hope than a plan.

Now, onto the question at hand. The prestige of the department matters less than the prestige of the advisor. If you are studying AMO, and the department's fame is based on astrophysics, it's not going to help. And the top schools in a subfield might not be the big names. Astronomy? Arizona. Experimental Nuclear? Michigan State.

Also, some schools have prestige that is more school-wide than department wide. A colleague who chaired a physics department at an Ivy said his goal was "a physics department the English department can be proud of." A snippy comment made when a prof left a big state school for an ivy was "raised the average IQ of both departments". So before going prestige hunting, ensure the prestige is really there.

Finally, I would be very hesitant about a 1.5 hour commute. That's like 13% of your waking week. Grad school is harder than undergrad, and you don't want to start it off with a 13% penalty.

 

[ProfuselyQuarky]

Do you know why your studies did not produce the grades? test anxiety? studying to your strengths and not to your weaknesses? These have been my issues from time to time.

A lot of it was being increasingly sick and not having treatment or testing accommodations because of insurance complications and not being able to see a doctor in a timely manner lol. One semester, totally unrelated, I was hit by an oncoming vehicle during midterms so 100% of my grade for 3 classes totally fell onto finals (no need to tell me about incompletes…I didn’t know this existed and no one told me. I feel foolish). And that went very badly because ofc I was still dealing with the first issue. And I don’t know how many times I can use “so-and-so died“ until people just stop believing me. at this point it’s probably comical from an outsider the amount of things I can tell.

It’s okay though! I’m trying to forget what happened and not compare myself to others lol.

I wouldn't put too much weight in "prestige,"

That’s what I figured. Sticking to the public school just while I’m working seems to be the more sane option. I really hate driving in cities.

The prestige of the department matters less than the prestige of the advisor. If you are studying AMO, and the department's fame is based on astrophysics, it's not going to help. And the top schools in a subfield might not be the big names. Astronomy? Arizona. Experimental Nuclear? Michigan State.

I’m not actually aware of the difference in influence between the two PI’s although I do know the 1.5hr away school is mostly well known in physics and engineering (aerospace…? all of the above?) and I’m directly in neither of those things (In an adjacent field). I wish there was a way to just look up what a school’s very niche strengths were. Thank you for the honesty, I think I feel better about choosing the school near my parents’ house as my first employer now.

This is very common advice. I am extremely skeptical of it. If this worked often, our graduate schools would be teeming with students who followed this path. They aren't.

Also this kind of hurts but that’s fine haha. We’ll see what happens

 

[Vanadium 50]

Also this kind of hurts

Would you feel better if I said "this is a great plan! Princeton is guaranteed to take you, and fly you home every single day! And Stanford! And Oxbridge!"