Does Religious Scripture Influence Modern Extremist Actions?

[The Smoking Man]

Is anyone around here able to speak Arabic?

No Arabic but a broad Yorkshire and some Spanish in this.

I wanted to get more information about that time.

http://www.jumpstation.ca/recroom/comedy/python/spanish.html

 

[Lisa!]

The suras are reputedly the very words whispered by God to Muhammad during his trances. Thus, to change God's own words is to profanize them.
Ask any Muslim.

Have you ever asked?


And what do you think of muslems in general?

 

[arildno]

Don't you think giving people access to the original unadulterated text of religious documents is actually better than giving them a carefully costructed, abridged, translated version such as the bible for instance?

This has never been restricted.
What has been restricted, is the opportunities for ordinary persons to gain the education to learn it (time&money).

Thus, to oppose the usage of texts in the vernacular is in effect, to deprive ordinary persons the ability to examine the texts for themselves (they do not speak or understand the "holy" language, and are thus at the outset excluded from offering criticisms worthy of further examination).

 

[arildno]

Have you ever asked?

Sure.

And what do you think of muslems in general?

Ordinary folk trying to make a decent living.

 

[Bilal]

Dear Lisa!

There are no translations that represent the real meaning 100% of the original document.

Koran is written in classical Arabic with ‘’fixed arrangement-signature documents’’. Even they tried to draw the same shape of the alphabets … This Koran is collected and written into period of the first generation of Muslims (few years after the death of Mohammed). Additionally there are some words in Koran need to be investigated because they could have more that one meaning.

Since early Islam, there are differences in interpretation of the Koran verses… These differences are accepted in Islam because it is strategy to convince the people to think and to investigate instead to follow the text blindly. (By the way, getting knowledge is the most honorable work in Islam ... it is called also Jihad for getting knowledge)

For this reason the first schools of laws in human history was established in the 10 century in Baghdad. These schools had different interpretations and they let the people to select the best for them. In that time, people of Iraq selected (Hanafi school), people of Syria selected (Shafee school) , North Africa and Andalusia (Maliki school) , Iran (Shia-Jaafri school) and Arabia selected (Hanbali school).

People in that time select the school of Islamic laws based on the situation of the society, so the multi-religions societies with modern cities (e.g. Andalusia and Syria) wanted school with high tolerance with non Muslims and women, while pure Muslims societies with many Bedouin (e.g. Arabia) care a lot about social customs and honor. Therefore they selected the school that focus on these issues.

I can tell you that Islam as ocean and you can find what you want inside based on what you look for. It could be religion of justice, war, peace, honor, brotherhood, theocracy, democracy, human rights …. It depends on how you understand it.

These schools used to tolerate with each other till we got in new age what called ‘’militant wahabi” who mixed the ultra extreme social customs (Hanbli school) with military activity. Those people do not tolerate with other Muslims or non Muslims and the result is what called now (AlQaeda )!

Hanbali School is the least popular school in Islamic world and it is limited to Gulf area (less than 5% of Muslims). Those who mixed this strict school with military activity are less than 1% among the follower of this school.

Ok, so you can tell us more about Koran. About the others, I think if they can't speak Arabic, they shouldn't be too sure of what they say. Because translation could change the meaning. We can have different understanding of one single quote which is said in our language. Now how can we be sure that the translator understood what koran means in the first hand? He may misunderstand it un/deliberately!

 

[Lisa!]

Sure.

Ordinary folk trying to make a decent living.

Do you think they're open-minded or narrow-mided?
Do you think you can get along with them or not?
Are you afraid of them?
What do you mean by trying to make a decent living?
Where do they live? I mean do you think all of them are living in middle-east?
Have you ever talkedto any of them?

 

[Lisa!]

Dear Lisa!

There are no translations that represent the real meaning 100% of the original document.

Koran is written in classical Arabic with ‘’fixed arrangement-signature documents’’. Even they tried to draw the same shape of the alphabets … This Koran is collected and written into period of the first generation of Muslims (few years after the death of Mohammed). Additionally there are some words in Koran need to be investigated because they could have more that one meaning.

Since early Islam, there are differences in interpretation of the Koran verses… These differences are accepted in Islam because it is strategy to convince the people to think and to investigate instead to follow the text blindly. (By the way, getting knowledge is the most honorable work in Islam ... it is called also Jihad for getting knowledge)

For this reason the first schools of laws in human history was established in the 10 century in Baghdad. These schools had different interpretations and they let the people to select the best for them. In that time, people of Iraq selected (Hanafi school), people of Syria selected (Shafee school) , North Africa and Andalusia (Maliki school) , Iran (Shia-Jaafri school) and Arabia selected (Hanbali school).

People in that time select the school of Islamic laws based on the situation of the society, so the multi-religions societies with modern cities (e.g. Andalusia and Syria) wanted school with high tolerance with non Muslims and women, while pure Muslims societies with many Bedouin (e.g. Arabia) care a lot about social customs and honor. Therefore they selected the school that focus on these issues.

I can tell you that Islam as ocean and you can find what you want inside based on what you look for. It could be religion of justice, war, peace, honor, brotherhood, theocracy, democracy, human rights …. It depends on how you understand it.

These schools used to tolerate with each other till we got in new age what called ‘’militant wahabi” who mixed the ultra extreme social customs (Hanbli school) with military activity. Those people do not tolerate with other Muslims or non Muslims and the result is what called now (AlQaeda )!

Thanks for your information.

 

[Bilal]

Actually there are around 800 millions people speaking Arabic, only 300 millions are native Arab.

Those kids learn by heart the Koran, but also they learn Arabic …. As I know all Madrassa (school) are teaching in Arabic.
Reading Koran in its origin language is considered as part of prayers. Koran in its origin language is a fixed signature , which can not be represented by translation.

To pick out just one piece of thoroughly immoral thinking in Islam:
It is regarded as an act of blasphemy to translate the Quran into another language.
This has a deleterious effect on the educational system in many Islamic countries:
Young boys are required to go to Quran school in order to memorize suras they don't understand what means (most muslims today do not understand Old Arabic).

This is a waste of resources; young brains which should have received intellectual stimulation wither as a result of this nonsensical practice.

Furthermore, the mullahs gain an unhealthy position of authority, since they are basically the only ones able to read the Quran, and tell others what it reputedly says.

 

[Art]

This has never been restricted.
What has been restricted, is the opportunities for ordinary persons to gain the education to learn it (time&money).

Thus, to oppose the usage of texts in the vernacular is in effect, to deprive ordinary persons the ability to examine the texts for themselves (they do not speak or understand the "holy" language, and are thus at the outset excluded from offering criticisms worthy of further examination).

If the catholic church were to give you access to the original texts on which the bible is based (which BTW they wouldn't) would you be able to read and understand the ancient Hebrew it is written in? Do you think most 'ordinary people' would? So don't you think your criticism of the Koran is equally if not more so valid in relation to catholicism?

 

[arildno]

Do you think they're open-minded or narrow-mided?

depends on the individual.

Do you think you can get along with them or not?

I get along with several Muslims perfectly.

Are you afraid of them?

Youth gangs hanging about the corners, yes (but I am equally afraid of Vietnamese youth gangs and indigenous Norwegian youth gangs).

What do you mean by trying to make a decent living?

For example by keeping alive all the minor mom&dad-shops in my neighboorhood.

Where do they live? I mean do you think all of them are living in middle-east?

Since I live in a part of Oslo where approx. 40% of the population are Muslims, no.

Have you ever talked to any of them?

Definitely, on a daily basis.
However, Urdu and Farsi (for example) are so dissimilar from the Norwegian language on so many levels (for example, on a so basic level as what types of SOUNDS are utilized) that it takes several years for 1.generation immigrants to learn Norwegian. This is unfortunately one of the major obstacle immigrants faces.

Chinese immigrants/students have, in fact, a much easier task: several of the linguistic subtleties in Norwegian that even other Europeans find very difficult to learn, is accidentally also present in Chinese.

 

[arildno]

If the catholic church were to give you access to the original texts on which the bible is based (which BTW they wouldn't) would you be able to read and understand the ancient Hebrew it is written in? Do you think most 'ordinary people' would? So don't you think your criticism of the Koran is equally if not more so valid in relation to catholicism?

To catholicism, yes.
To various forms of Protestantism, no.

 

[Bilal]

As I know who read the Koran translation or look for any extra knowledge (even non religious knowledge) is considered as honorable work in Islam. Just in prayers you should use Arabic, while you can give lessons in the mosque in other languages.

Simply, Muslims should keep by heart around 20 sentences in Arabic to do their prayers, and the rest up to him...

It is the same as Old Hebrew (which does not exist anymore!) are used in Jews prayers.

Most of educational systems in Islamic world are ''secular'' and do not allow to teach the religion more than 1.5 hour/week! (even in Algeria , Turkey and Tunsia no religious studies are allowed) So I do not know how you got your conclusions? Unless you talk about Taliban system and some religious schools in Pakistan?

The suras are reputedly the very words whispered by God to Muhammad during his trances. Thus, to change God's own words by translating them is to profanize them; they are no longer holy, but contaminated by the action of the translator.
Ask any Muslim.

 

[Bilal]

If your conclusion is correct, could you explain how the vast majority of Muslims leaders through ages could not speak Arabic?

Saladin (Kurdish) , who defeated the crusaders , needed sometimes translators while he giving religious lessons in the Umayyad mosque in Damascus …additionally most of Ottoman Caliphates did not learn Arabic.

This has never been restricted.
What has been restricted, is the opportunities for ordinary persons to gain the education to learn it (time&money).

Thus, to oppose the usage of texts in the vernacular is in effect, to deprive ordinary persons the ability to examine the texts for themselves (they do not speak or understand the "holy" language, and are thus at the outset excluded from offering criticisms worthy of further examination).

 

[arildno]

Most of educational systems in Islamic world are ''secular'' and do not allow to teach the religion more than 1.5 hour/week! (even in Algeria , Turkey and Tunsia no religious studies are allowed) So I do not know how you got your conclusions? Unless you talk about Taliban system and some religious schools in Pakistan?

Well, I don't believe you.
In Norway, there are several problems with young Muslim boys who must attend Quran school for 3-4 hours after ordinary shool, and have precious little time to do their homework.

 

[arildno]

If your conclusion is correct, could you explain how the vast majority of Muslims leaders through ages could not speak Arabic?

This is simply a proof of what I said: Most muslims, including secular leaders do NOT understand Classical Arabic.

 

[Lisa!]

Ok arildno, you redeem yourself. I thought you were commenting on a subject which you don't have any information about that personaly! Like what most of people do. I think we should never generalize anything. We can't say all muslems are bad or good. Or people who believe in Islam, can't be open-minded...
I don't know if you're a religious person or not And I don't want to know because it's not in my bussiness. But anyway I think you should respect other people opinions. Humans are free to choose any religion they want and you're not allowed to disrespect their ideas.Even if they sound stupid or whatever to you.
Ok I'd better to saty quiet after all because for sure you know these better than me!

depends on the individual.

Exactly like other people.

 

[arildno]

Lisa!, and Bilal:
The fact that we (I) may object in principle to elements of a particular thought-system's tenets on moral (or other) grounds, should not ever be taken to that extreme that every one of those individuals ascribing themselves to that thought-system is guilty of some heinous immoral action.

To take a case with a particular thought-system so evil that it is an insult to compare any other thought-systems with it: Nazism in 1930's Germany

Most of the Germans regarding themselves as Nazis (the majority of the German population) were more concerned in their lives with creating good living conditions for their children (a basic tenet within Nazism, and just about any other thought-system) than going about hating Jews.
It doesn't follow that because most native Germans sympathetic to Nazism at this time were regular, decent folk in their private lives that Nazism itself was an ideology we should regard with any sort of sympathy, nor should our justified antipathy towards Nazism lead us to regard every adult living in Germany at that time as a heinous immoralist and murderer of Jews.

 

[Lisa!]

Lisa!, and Bilal:
The fact that we (I) may object in principle to elements of a particular thought-system's tenets on moral (or other) grounds, should not ever be taken to that extreme that every one of those individuals ascribing themselves to that thought-system is guilty of some heinous immoral action.

To take a case with a particular thought-system so evil that it is an insult to compare any other thought-systems with it: Nazism in 1930's Germany

Most of the Germans regarding themselves as Nazis (the majority of the German population) were more concerned in their lives with creating good living conditions for their children (a basic tenet within Nazism, and just about any other thought-system) than going about hating Jews.
It doesn't follow that because most native Germans sympathetic to Nazism at this time were regular, decent folk in their private lives that Nazism itself was an ideology we should regard with any sort of sympathy, nor should our justified antipathy towards Nazism lead us to regard every adult living in Germany at that time as a heinous immoralist and murderer of Jews.

You always bring Nazis as an example for any issue. Anyway I want to go out of here because I have a terrible headache! And I don't want to get involved in political discussions. A very wise person has said "Never discuss about religion and politics with your friends!" And I agree with him. Because it usually doent do any good and sometimes you even may lose your friends!


Regards

 

[arildno]

Just to make it clear: There is nothing in Islam which makes it in any way comparable to Nazism, IMO.

You always bring Nazis as an example for any issue.

Because it is a historical occurrence which raises a number of perennially relevant questions for any society.
But, I'll stop here.

 

[Nomy-the wanderer]

The bottom line is, that when people are ignorant they can't go deeper in their religion, and hence they believe any big words said to them because they simply want to go to heaven after they die...So there r moderate muslims who know how to maintain their normal life according to what they do believe in, and what their religion forbid them to do...

There's a forbidden list made by preachers for those who cannot read or understand themselves, but this only results on what u see, there r many ignorant preachers though, i was watching TV once and they were talking about a preacher that told people lies and false visions and oracles...

So in order not to go further into details i ignore, the dark ages in Europe were caused by ignorance, following the lead of the curch, the church leader did what they want not for the sake of God but for the sake of being Rich, people knew **** but they still followed fearing that if they disobeyed get imprisoned or worse, spend their eternal life in hell..It's quite the same here, people are born muslims, they know nothing, live in emptiness, they follow the 1st one who gives a hand..Regardless of the consequences...

Back to topic, i don't think there's something in qur'an related to bombardments and suicides...But if there is than all those people who r thought to have the greater knowledge of their religion are double faced liars, saying what satisfies people..but i don't think so.

 

[Bilal]

hmmmmm

So what I have to do to confirm that I studied Koran and religion for only 90 minutes/week.

If you talk about ''religious school'' then it is another topic, and these schools are non governmental and exist in poor areas in South Asia.

Well, I don't believe you.
In Norway, there are several problems with young Muslim boys who must attend Quran school for 3-4 hours after ordinary shool, and have precious little time to do their homework.

 

[Bilal]

They do not speak Arabic because they are not Arab, so they gave religious lessons in their own languages. Every educated Arab should know classical Arabic because it is the language of the media and books.

This is simply a proof of what I said: Most muslims, including secular leaders do NOT understand Classical Arabic.

 

[arildno]

hmmmmm

So what I have to do to confirm that I studied Koran and religion for only 90 minutes/week.

If you talk about ''religious school'' then it is another topic, and these schools are non governmental and exist in poor areas in South Asia.

Well, I certainly believe what you tell of yourself!;
Since most of the Muslim immigrants in Norway have arrived from poor areas in the countryside (say, for example, certain districts in Pakistan), it may well be that they have brought along local ways of teaching Islam which are uncommon/unheard of in your country.
In that case, I apologize for making unfounded generalizations.

 

[Bilal]

I agree with your post in general.

I think there is political background for each conflict, but for some reasons Islam float on the wave in recent years, here is summary of suicide bombers attacks in ME:

1) 1956: Essam Muwel , Syrian Christian : he attacked French ship bomber during Suez war.
2) Sanaa Muhaidly : 1982, Lebanese (leftist-may be Christian?) : she bombed Israel military target during the Israeli invasion to her country ...
3) 1983: Islamic Shia militants started their attacks against Marines and French forces in Lebanon.
4) 1994, Palestinian attacked for the first time a civilian Israeli target as a revenge for ''Hebron massacre’’. During the Holy month of Ramadan, an American Jews extremist, Dr Barukh Goldstein, attacked the Abrahimic mosque in Hebron and murdered 29 Palestinian.
6) 1996, Alqaeda started the suicide attacks against American military targets in Saudi Arabia
7) 1997 Alqaeda started their attacks against American civilian targets in Africa
8) 2001 : Alqaeda attacked American civilians on their soil.
9) 2002: Alqaeda started their attacks against Muslims and non Muslims in Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Iraq and Morocco ...

If we check the history of these attacks in ME, we will realize that the first two attacks were done by Arab Christian but against pure military target and during ''defensive wars".
The second two attacks also against military targets, Marines and French forces , 1983 Beirut, but these forces suppose to be peace keepers.

Palestinian targeted Israeli civilian in 1994, as part of ''national resistance '' against the occupation... (In spite of that, many Palestinian and Muslims could not agree with targeting Israeli civilians)

Finally , Alqaeda started attacks against every human, Muslims or non Muslims ! They gave strong religious factor to their attacks... and they are hated by many Muslims because of their religious extremism , which NEVER known in all the Islamic history (Thanks to Afghanistan war!).

This historical background shows how suicide bombers started as decent fighting against the invaders and end with religious attacks against Muslims and non Muslims by unpopular groups whom have been rejected by their nations, and who never get such power without CIA support in 80s against USSR.

Frankly, Muslims need to declare jihad against Alqaeda and its ideas, but the stupid invasion of Iraq created 100 Alqaeda ...

Bush is religious man who think that his father (the god) asked him to invade the Iraq and (axis of evil) , and OBL think that the god ordered him to bomb USA and its alliance till they withdraw from the Islamic world.

I can see little difference between both

The bottom line is, that when people are ignorant they can't go deeper in their religion, and hence they believe any big words said to them because they simply want to go to heaven after they die...So there r moderate muslims who know how to maintain their normal life according to what they do believe in, and what their religion forbid them to do...

There's a forbidden list made by preachers for those who cannot read or understand themselves, but this only results on what u see, there r many ignorant preachers though, i was watching TV once and they were talking about a preacher that told people lies and false visions and oracles...

So in order not to go further into details i ignore, the dark ages in Europe were caused by ignorance, following the lead of the curch, the church leader did what they want not for the sake of God but for the sake of being Rich, people knew **** but they still followed fearing that if they disobeyed get imprisoned or worse, spend their eternal life in hell..It's quite the same here, people are born muslims, they know nothing, live in emptiness, they follow the 1st one who gives a hand..Regardless of the consequences...

Back to topic, i don't think there's something in qur'an related to bombardments and suicides...But if there is than all those people who r thought to have the greater knowledge of their religion are double faced liars, saying what satisfies people..but i don't think so.

 

[Bilal]

I can compare Alqaeda with Hashshashin in 11th century (during crusaders wars). Muslims declared Jihad on this terrorist Muslim group till they annihilated them after 3 centuries.

In that time Muslims were strong and the most powerful force in the world, unlike their situation now.

http://web.linix.ca/pedia/index.php/Hashshashin