Egypt's Islamists warn giving women some rights could destroy society

[aquitaine]

It makes me wonder why feminists and gays are so quick to defend Muslim immigrants.

My working hypothesis is that cultural relativism ends up producing a prodigious amount of doublethink, which is simultaneously holding two mutually exclusive ideas as being equally true. One thing Christopher Caldwell demonstrated in his book Reflections on the Revolution In Europe is that the policies of relativistic acceptance have clearly not been thought through and will change European society in a negative way. The UK is already seeing this in the form of microcourts and "Sharia Enforcement Zones".

It would be one thing if they were willing to accept our values, and the ones that have should be welcomed. But in Europe a great many have not.

Some cultures measure the success of a society by the divorce rate, number families with single parents and not by their technological advancements. When they look at the west, that's what they see.

In other words they see success as how well they can imprison women and take away their freedom. But even so, one thing South Korea and Japan have demonstrated is that there really isn't much of a link between technological advancement. Beneath those technologically advanced first world economies is a third world society where women are still distant second class citizens.

Coverture laws were peculiar English and American laws, and were not at all in that shape in Germany, France, Denmark, Norway etc.

They might not have been taken to that extreme, but at least in Germany during that period things were scarcely better.

That was a great read...thanks!

You're welcome.

 

[ImaLooser]

The first effective Women's Rights movement began with Communism. I remember in 1960 reading how awful it was in the USSR since women had to work, with a photo of a female policeman. Horrors! Women's rights was a big selling point for Communism in China. Women supported it.

Somehow or other Western media doesn't mention this. Maybe they forgot.

 

[pftest]

There already is a UN Declaration of Human Rights and all of those countries you mentioned did sign it. Here's a map of all the signatories:

That map surprised me because i was under the impression that virtually all islamic countries (57) had rejected universal human rights for them not being in accordance with the sharia. So they created their own version in which people have human rights as long as they act according to the sharia:

The Cairo Declaration on Human Rights in Islam (CDHRI) is a declaration of the member states of the Organisation of the Islamic Conference adopted in Cairo in 1990,[1] which provides an overview on the Islamic perspective on human rights, and affirms Islamic Shari'ah as its sole source. CDHRI declares its purpose to be "general guidance for Member States [of the OIC] in the Field of human rights". This declaration is usually seen as an Islamic response to the post-World War II United Nations’ Universal Declaration of Human Rights (UDHR) of 1948.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cairo_Declaration_on_Human_Rights_in_Islam

So that means these ones don't accept the universal declaration of human rights:

 

[ramsey2879]

That map surprised me because i was under the impression that virtually all islamic countries (57) had rejected universal human rights for them not being in accordance with the sharia. So they created their own version in which people have human rights as long as they act according to the sharia:

So that means these ones don't accept the universal declaration of human rights:

The last statement on human rights (this setting up the "Independent Permanent Human Rights Commission of the OIC") was in the summer of 2012. See http://www.oicun.org/75/20120607051141117.html Note is made of the following Articles:

" Article 3

The Commission shall be composed of 18 members nominated by the Member States’ governments among experts of established distinction in the area of human rights and elected by the Council of Foreign Ministers for a three-year period renewable once.

Article 6

The Member States shall encourage the nomination of women to the membership of the Commission.

Article 11

The Commission shall support the Member States’ efforts in terms of policies aimed at enhancing legislation and policies in favour of advancing the rights of women, the young and those with special needs, in the economic, social, political and cultural fields as well as eliminating all forms of violence and discrimination.

CHAPTER IV. Mandate of the Commission

Article 12

The Commission shall carry out consultative tasks for the Council and submit recommendations to it. It shall also carry out other tasks as may be assigned to it by the Summit or the Council.

Article 13

The Commission shall support the OIC’s position on human rights at the international level and consolidate cooperation among the Member States in the area of human rights.

Article 14

The Commission shall provide technical cooperation in the field of human rights and awareness raising about these rights in the Member States, and offer approving Member States consultancy on human rights issues.

Article 15

The Commission shall promote and support the role of Member State- accredited national institutions and civil society organisations active in the area of human rights in accordance with the OIC Charter and work procedures, in addition to enhancing cooperation between the Organisation and other international and regional human rights organisations.

Article 16

The Commission shall conduct studies and research on priority human rights issues, including those issues referred to it by the Council, and coordinate efforts and information exchange with Member States’ working groups on human rights issues in international fora.

Article 17

The Commission may cooperate with Member States, at their request, in the elaboration of human rights instruments. It may also submit recommendations on refinement of OIC human rights declarations and covenants as well as suggest ratification of human rights covenants and instruments within the OIC framework and in harmony with Islamic values and agreed international standards."

Although the commission is severely limited by Article 13, its creation and consultation duties appears to be a step forward in protecting the human rights of women, children and those with special needs.

 

[ramsey2879]

Women aren't cattle, they're not "owned" and should have the same rights as men. I just find this attitude toward women unacceptable.
http://news.yahoo.com/egypts-islamists-warn-giving-women-rights-could-destroy-061331905.html

Although such an attitude may be unacceptable to most countries, I feel the UN should take the pragmatic approach and remove much of the specific provisions dealing with equal status in the economic and reproductive rights within marriage, and other rights such as contraception and reproductive rights, and gay rights in order to obtain the approval of the OIC of the more important provisions such as protecting women against violence and discrimination based upon gender which can be construed as deemed fit by the 18 OIC states. The approval of such language by the OIC without the more objected language would in my mind be a historic milestone.

From the link posted in the OP "Egypt has joined Iran, Russia and the Vatican - dubbed an "unholy alliance" by some diplomats - in threatening to derail the women's rights declaration by objecting to language on sexual, reproductive and gay rights."

For a view of the proposed UN resolution, see http://www.un.org/womenwatch/daw/cs...ns_advance_unedited_version_18_March_2013.pdf

There is not that much disagreement between the UN resolution and the 2005 10 year plan of the OIC in particular the following section of the 10 year plan:
"VI. Rights of Women, Youth, Children, and the Family in the Muslim World

1. Strengthen laws aimed at enhancing the advancement of women in Muslim societies in economic, cultural, social, and political fields, in accordance with Islamic values of justice and equality; and aimed also at protecting women from all forms of violence and discrimination and adhering to the provisions of the Convention on the Elimination of all Forms of Discrimination against Women, in line with the Islamic values of justice and equality.

2. Give special attention to women’s education and female literacy.

3. Expedite developing “The Covenant on the Rights of Women in Islam”, in accordance with Resolution No. 60/27-P and the Cairo Declaration on Human Rights in Islam.

4. Strive to provide free and quality basic education for all children.

5. Strengthen laws aimed at preserving the rights of children, enjoying the highest possible health levels, taking effective measures in order to eradicate poliomyelitis and protect them from all forms of violence and exploitation.

6. Encourage the Member States to sign and ratify the OIC Covenant on the Rights of the Child in Islam, the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of the Child in Islam, the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child and its annexed Optional Protocols, and the Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination against Women and its Optional Protocol with regard to the Girl Child.

7. Call upon all Member States to support and promote youth programmes and youth forums.

8. Call upon the OIC to contribute towards projecting Islam as a religion that guarantees full protection of women's rights and encourages their participation in all walks of life.

9. Accord necessary attention to the family as the principal nucleus of the Muslim society, exert all possible efforts, at all levels, to face up to the contemporary social challenges confronting the Muslim family and affecting its cohesion, on the basis of Islamic values.

10. Establish a Division responsible for Family Affairs within the framework of the General Secretariat’s restructuring."

See http://www.saudiembassy.net/archive/2005/statements/page4.aspx

 

[pftest]

The last statement on human rights (this setting up the "Independent Permanent Human Rights Commission of the OIC") was in the summer of 2012. See http://www.oicun.org/75/20120607051141117.html [...]

Here is the actual Cairo Declaration on Human Rights:

http://www1.umn.edu/humanrts/instree/cairodeclaration.html

Some quotes from it which refer to the sharia:

Safety from bodily harm is a guaranteed right. It is the duty of the state to safeguard it, and it is prohibited to breach it without a Shari'ah-prescribed reason.
...
Parents and those in such like capacity have the right to choose the type of education they desire for their children, provided they take into consideration the interest and future of the children in accordance with ethical values and the principles of the Shari'ah.
...
Both parents are entitled to certain rights from their children, and relatives are entitled to rights from their kin, in accordance with the tenets of the shari'ah.
...
Everyone shall have the right to enjoy the fruits of his scientific, literary, artistic or technical labour of which he is the author; and he shall have the right to the protection of his moral and material interests stemming therefrom, provided it is not contrary to the principles of the Shari'ah.
...
There shall be no crime or punishment except as provided for in the Shari'ah.
...
Everyone shall have the right to express his opinion freely in such manner as would not be contrary to the principles of the Shari'ah
...
All the rights and freedoms stipulated in this Declaration are subject to the Islamic Shari'ah.
...
The Islamic Shari'ah is the only source of reference for the explanation or clarification of any of the articles of this Declaration.

You can see the pattern: "you have this and this right... unless you do not act according to the sharia". We would have to delve into the sharia to see what rights women are granted, though i believe it is forbidden to discuss such things on this particular section of the internet. Ill just say that i do not believe much improvement will ever be made in the region while islam remains the dominant faith there. We can already see the situation deteriorating in many of those countries now that the dictators are gone and the peoples wish for faith to play a bigger role is being respected.

 

[aquitaine]

Segregation now, segregation tomorrow, segregation forever!

Gender segregation is already in effective in the majority of schools in the Palestinian territory but from the next school year, it will be enforced by law in every one of Gaza's education establishments, including Christian and private schools and those run by the United Nations.
"We are a Muslim people. We do not need to make people Muslims and we are doing what serves our people and their culture," Waleed Mezher, a legal advisor to the ministry of education told Reuters, explaining that the Hamas government was attempting to protect conservative Muslim values with legislation.
This is the latest in a string of recent announcements from the Hamas regime in Gaza tightening restrictions on Palestinian girls and women. An annual UN-sponsored marathon in the Gaza Strip was canceled last month because Hamas authorities would not permit either foreign or local women to run alongside men, even if they were veiled.

Egypt isn't alone in its backslide...

 

[mheslep]

The first effective Women's Rights movement began with Communism. ...

Timeline of women's suffrage
Timeline of other women's rights.

 

[nazarbaz]

The one thing that westerners need to learn is to shut up when they obviously don't get what is going on. I have no sympathy for islamists and I fought them almost all my life but you have to know that most of what you are saying about the arab world and the muslim cultures is gross misconception. Who knows this kind of societies from the inside knows that women's run it despite all the leads that tend to prove the opposite for a western eye. The inferiority of status is here to hide à de facto superiority in what matters most for them : the politics of the family. This idea that your countries are an oasis of freedom in a world hostile to liberty and justice is ridiculous. It reminds me what is most silly in my native society standard behavior and thinking : judging the big complicated world outside by the old village habits and giving good or bad grads to whatever seems to be différent from us. You don't seem to be that différent from this standpoint.

 

[Evo]

The one thing that westerners need to learn is to shut up when they obviously don't get what is going on. I have no sympathy for islamists and I fought them almost all my life but you :have to know that most of what you are saying about the arab world and the muslim cultures is gross misconception. Who knows this kind of societies from the inside knows that women's run it despite all the leads that tend to prove the opposite for a western eye. The inferiority of status is here à de facto superiority in what matters most for them : the politics of the family. This idea that your countries are an oasis of freedom in a world hostile to liberty and justice is ridiculous. It reminds me what is most silly in my native society standard behavior and thinking : judging the big complicated world outside by the old village habits and giving good or bad grads to whatever seems to be différent from us. You don't seem to be that différent from this standpoint.

If you had bothered to read the OP, you'd know that it is the citizens of Egypt that are opposing the oppressive Islamic rule.

Please do not post unless you have read and understood the issue.

 

[nazarbaz]

I am not talking about the OP but what followed it. I hâte this retarded morons of islamists. What is unacceptable is to judge whole cultures and societies.

 

[Evo]

I am not talking about the OP but what followed it.

What, specifically, was said that is incorrect, and yes, you will need to cite sources that back you up. I'm not aware of any misinformation.

And no, just because women have been raised to consider themselves as not worthy of equal rights in society is not an excuse.

 

[aquitaine]

If you had bothered to read the OP, you'd know that it is the citizens of Egypt that are opposing the oppressive Islamic rule.

Some are, but looking at the results it would seem that most would not. If most citizens of Egypt were opposed to the Islamist agenda then why hand them 69% of the parliament seats?

 

[Evo]

Some are, but looking at the results it would seem that most would not. If most citizens of Egypt were opposed to the Islamist agenda then why hand them 69% of the parliament seats?

Who said it was most citizens? Aren't the oppressors a majority? I said the article in the OP referred to Egyptian citizens that oppose the oppression.

 

[nazarbaz]

It seems pretty clear that the whole debate is structured by a binary view of things : our liberty and equality against their alienation and hierarchy. Some posters try not to be judgemental but they think within this framework and they fail.
Long ago I stopped judging people and their ways of life. I can tell you that freedom has no content at all, and that there is no point to fill it with a particular set of value and laws rather than an another one... The key point is your attitude towards them.

 

[Evo]

It seems pretty clear that the whole debate is structured by a binary view of things : our liberty and equality against their alienation and hierarchy. Some posters try not to be judgemental but they think within this framework and they fail.
Long ago I stopped judging people and their ways of life. I can tell you that freedom has no content at all, and that there is no point to fill it with a particular set of value and laws rather than an another one... The key point is your attitude towards them.

Oppression cannot and should not ever be swept under the rug. People should never accept the mistreatment of others. That type of thinking is wrong no matter how you try to make excuses for it.

 

[nazarbaz]

Evo, you just don't know what you are talking about if your main source of information is média.Things are à lot more complicated than you seem to think.

 

[Evo]

Evo, you just don't know what you are talking about if your main source of information is média.Things are à lot more complicated than you seem to think.

Did you read the article?

A coalition of Arab human rights groups - from Egypt, Lebanon, the Palestinian Territories, Jordan and Tunisia - called on countries at the Commission on the Status of Women on Thursday to stop using religion, culture, and tradition to justify abuse of women.

I would guess that these people understand the culture.

 

[leroyjenkens]

Who knows this kind of societies from the inside knows that women's run it despite all the leads that tend to prove the opposite for a western eye.

Women run the societies and we just think they're being oppressed? So they can wear bikinis to the beach if they want to?

 

[lisab]

The one thing that westerners need to learn is to shut up when they obviously don't get what is going on. I have no sympathy for islamists and I fought them almost all my life but you have to know that most of what you are saying about the arab world and the muslim cultures is gross misconception. Who knows this kind of societies from the inside knows that women's run it despite all the leads that tend to prove the opposite for a western eye. The inferiority of status is here to hide à de facto superiority in what matters most for them : the politics of the family. This idea that your countries are an oasis of freedom in a world hostile to liberty and justice is ridiculous. It reminds me what is most silly in my native society standard behavior and thinking : judging the big complicated world outside by the old village habits and giving good or bad grads to whatever seems to be différent from us. You don't seem to be that différent from this standpoint.

Regarding the bolded part of your post: how can you say you know what matters most to women?

 

[pftest]

[...]The inferiority of status is here to hide à de facto superiority in what matters most for them : the politics of the family.[...]

So women are superior in "the politics of the family". Can you explain what you mean with this? Is it that they can decide what to cook?

Last i checked the faith in the region prescribes the husband to beat his wife when she doesn't obey him. Also in matters of disagreement (for example divorce), women do not get superior family rights, quite the contrary. Not to mention the horrific consequences of prescribed female clothing and behavior.

 

[nazarbaz]

Your vision of these societies is ridiculous and full of clichés. You will continue trying to patronize people and they will keep not caring about your opinion and "values". This tendency to make big empty sentences and discourses on things obviously beyond the speaking subject is the mark of mediocrity : the kind of it that thinks it will teach others how to be free and ethical or simply how to live. If you think that islam summarize how these societies work then you really don't know what you talk about. Take what I am telling as a warning and a reminder that you're not in position to take harsh moral stances against whole societies and cultures. It is worthless.

 

[Evo]

Your vision of these societies is ridiculous and full of clichés. You will continue trying to patronize people and they will keep not caring about your opinion and "values". This tendency to make big empty sentences and discourses on things obviously beyond the speaking subject is the mark of mediocrity : the kind of it that thinks it will teach others how to be free and ethical or simply how to live. If you think that islam summarize how these societies work then you really don't know what you talk about. Take what I am telling as a warning and a reminder that you're not in position to take harsh moral stances against whole societies and cultures. It is worthless.

Based on history, there is hope that intelligence will rise above ignorance, but it won't happen unless people work to rid themselves of those that would oppress. And, you don't know the background of people here so I suggest that you stop pretending that you know something that you don't know.

 

[aquitaine]

Your vision of these societies is ridiculous and full of clichés. You will continue trying to patronize people and they will keep not caring about your opinion and "values". This tendency to make big empty sentences and discourses on things obviously beyond the speaking subject is the mark of mediocrity : the kind of it that thinks it will teach others how to be free and ethical or simply how to live. If you think that islam summarize how these societies work then you really don't know what you talk about. Take what I am telling as a warning and a reminder that you're not in position to take harsh moral stances against whole societies and cultures. It is worthless.

The election results speak for themselves and what these societies really stand for. We are in a position to take such moral stances because for hundreds of years many people sacrificed a great deal to purge most of those evils from our society, sacrificed their time and sometimes even sacrificed their lives. By not taking a stance, all of those sacrifices mean nothing.

 

[ginru]

It's interesting to read this clash of cultures. Some years ago I traveled overseas and stayed with 3 generations of a large family living together sharing 2 bedrooms and 1 bathroom and still essentially being happy. I was told that the Mother is like the "General of the House" celebrated as the glue that holds the family together in harmony. Perhaps this is what nazarbaz means by "the politics of the family". I think for certain societies, the Family is a sacred institution that combines education, health care, welfare, and retirement all into one package. Even when governments fail them, their family is seen as the last line of safety and security.

Perhaps it's all too easy for certain groups to demonize our own culture of freedom with pictures of train-wreck celebs, high divorce rates, broken families, elders thrown into retirement homes and gangster rap raising children. This scares people into thinking this will be the future demise of their own sacred institutions of family and religion if they allow our progressive ideas to sway their daughters towards our values.

I feel we should easily understand this fear factor after 9/11. We were willing to get bogged down in 2 costly wars and sacrifice freedom in order to protect our own sense of safety and security. Yet, we look down on other cultures when they get overprotective of the things that they hold dear as the foundations of their society. I feel the best solution is somewhere in the balance of the two sides (Evo & Co vs nazarbaz), but perhaps we're just more into winning the culture argument/war rather than combining the best of both worlds for a more peaceful path to Progress.

 

[Evo]

It's interesting to read this clash of cultures.

The thread is about

Egypt's ruling Muslim Brotherhood warns that a U.N. declaration on women's rights could destroy society by allowing a woman to travel, work and use contraception without her husband's approval and letting her control family spending.

 

[jobyts]

The thread is about

For an intellectual discussion, we need to discuss deeper why and how different ideologies get evolved from different societies. Otherwise, the discussion is very shallow and not satisfying for a scientific minded group.

Discussion about different cultures and their sociological evolution are very relevant to the topic.

 

[Evo]

For an intellectual discussion, we need to discuss deeper why and how different ideologies get evolved from different societies. Otherwise, the discussion is very shallow and not satisfying for a scientific minded group.

Discussion about different cultures and their sociological evolution are very relevant to the topic.

It's a current events article specifically about this event. It's not meant to be a Social Sciences subject which, you would be correct, could go into deeper discussions, but would require a lot of studies.

 

[ramsey2879]

It's a current events article specifically about this event. It's not meant to be a Social Sciences subject which, you would be correct, could go into deeper discussions, but would require a lot of studies.

Ihe focus of the Op is specifically "Michelle Bachelet, a former president of Chile and head of U.N. Women, which supports the commission, said the commission was unable to reach a deal a decade ago when it last focused on the theme of women's rights and ending violence against women." and the Muslim Brotherhood movement of Egypt which opposed specific parts of the commission's preliminary deal based upon its fears that parts of the deal would undermine "society". That is very much a social sciences subject in my opinion. Posts dealing with the role of women in various societies would appear, to me, very germane in reaching an consensus that improved women's rights and protected women world wide.

From a website listing current United Nations resources regarding women issues, it would appear that no deal has currently been reached again for much the same reasons that no deal was made a decade ago. See http://www.un.org/womenwatch/directory/instruments_treaties_1003.htm

 

[Evo]

Ihe focus of the Op is specifically "Michelle Bachelet, a former president of Chile and head of U.N. Women, which supports the commission, said the commission was unable to reach a deal a decade ago when it last focused on the theme of women's rights and ending violence against women." and the Muslim Brotherhood movement of Egypt which opposed specific parts of the commission's preliminary deal based upon its fears that parts of the deal would undermine "society". That is very much a social sciences subject in my opinion. Posts dealing with the role of women in various societies would appear, to me, very germane in reaching an consensus that improved women's rights and protected women world wide.

Anyone is free to start such a thread in social sciences where it can be moderated appropriately. This thread is just about the protest to the Muslim Brotherhood's statement.