Engineering PhD: frustrated and unemployed

[engr405]

Particle Girl: I agree that it's tough for people in astrophysics/theory to find industry positions. But I still insist that the OP, given his background, shouldn't find it that hard to find one!

Semi companies do have programs where they hire fresh phds and train them... Globalfoundries' GTP and Intel's RCG programs for example. Semiconductor equipment vendors also have similar programs (Applied Materials, Lam research, Kla Tencor etc etc).
The job search is much easier if you are a citizen/permanent resident. Please make sure you advertise this on your resume!

Hadsed: My grad school work was in experimental cond. matter. I am not sure what skills they hired me for; my current role as a process engineer has nothing to do with my grad school research.

Finally, for those of you who work in experimental physics... there are plenty of jobs! Please make sure your resume is tailored to what they are looking for and continue to apply.
Also take a look at Glassdoor.com. The data there is pretty accurate as far as interviewing, salary and job satisfaction are concerned.

 

[twofish-quant]

Tech companies lament publicly and fail to even interview privately. If tech companies really lamented a lack of people they can hire, they'd snap up semi-relevant phds and train them, instead of waiting for someone pre-trained in the exact job.

The problem is that there is no waiting. The way that it works is that the bean counters tell us that we can hire X people. If we can hire two people, and it so happens that we have two people with exactly the requirements we want, then they get hired. The trouble right now is that there is no shortage of people that meet exactly the right requirements.

The cynic in me often thinks they lament the "shortage" to keep a flood of people going into tech to reduce salaries.

This might have worked a year or two ago, but with 10% unemployment, there isn't anything like a shortage of qualified people. The problem at my level is we are only allowed the hire the number of people that the bean counters let us hire. Now, as for how the bean counters get at that number, that's another interesting discussion, but it's pretty depressing.

They want people whose phds or undergrad education trained them for the exact job. Great if you are a condensed matter guy who worked on silicon and learned some relevant techniques, terrible if you are a theorist, or did astrophysics, etc.

There are companies that love astrophysicists.

 

[twofish-quant]

Welcome to the realities of the US economy. Our populace is too educated and there's simply not enough jobs for everyone.

One can consider leaving the US...

 

[theengineer83]

Sorry, but this seems a fake post. A PhD engineer?? What kind of engineering degree you have, and from which institution you have your grade? The unemployment for PhD in engineering is extremely low (usually approx. 1%). The average salary of PhD in engineering is above 90k with a six-figure is pretty normal for PhD in some fields like computer science. Many companies are reporting difficulties in finding doctorate in engineering especially in computer science (rather than the academic track and other similar options). May be you can provide some more information, like what kind of institution you got your degree from, which state are you, ... Sorry but I think it is a fake post ...

 

[squall211]

Ummm ... companies very rarely "look" for PhD engineers. Most engineering designers have bachelors or masters degrees, and you don't need a research qualification to be a designer, since you're not doing academic research.

True industrial research positions where you're publishing papers and such is a very small minority of positions.

That's why I can believe the post quite easily. You're given the task as a PhD'er of selling yourself for the same position as a bachelor's or master's graduate but are asking for a sizeable pay increase over the masters position but have no practical job experience. Plus its easy to come off as if you are 'settling' to the employer, so in a down economy, it can be quite tough!

 

[twofish-quant]

Sorry, but this seems a fake post. A PhD engineer??

I'm a bit curious about what your background is.

What kind of engineering degree you have, and from which institution you have your grade? The unemployment for PhD in engineering is extremely low (usually approx. 1%).

Unemployment statistics can be misleading because they don't take into account underemployment. The OP has a job and is not collecting unemployment benefits so he would be statistically counted as employed.

The average salary of PhD in engineering is above 90k with a six-figure is pretty normal for PhD in some fields like computer science.

There are problems with these statistics...

1) they don't take into account subgroups. Namely, the fact that people that got hired in the middle of the dot com boom (like me) have decent jobs isn't helpful to people looking for work now.

2) "average" tells you nothing about the extremes.

3) data collection issues. A lot of these statistics depend on surveys and if you are un/underemployed, you aren't going to be in the mood to report your salary

Many companies are reporting difficulties in finding doctorate in engineering especially in computer science (rather than the academic track and other similar options).

Having worked on the inside, I'm dubious of this statement. When a company says "we have difficulty finding people" they are really saying "we have difficulty finding people that work 100 hours a week for nothing." The vast majority of computer jobs are application programming jobs that do not require a Ph.D. in CS (which is good for me since my Ph.D. is in astrophysics). There are a few research jobs, but they are only somewhat less hard to get than academic jobs.

The other thing is that you will find that there are many CS Ph.D.'s that just can't program, which shouldn't be surprising if you think about it. Just because you have a Ph.D. in English literature doesn't mean that you can write novels and having a Ph.D. in Art doesn't mean that you can paint.

Sorry but I think it is a fake post ...

One reason I'm interested in your background is that I'm curious *why* you think it's a fake post. It seems quite reasonable to me.

 

[twofish-quant]

That's why I can believe the post quite easily. You're given the task as a PhD'er of selling yourself for the same position as a bachelor's or master's graduate

And this is a particular problem because most Ph.D.'s are not taught basic sales skills.

Personally, I've found it useless to try to "sell" a Ph.D. If the person that you are talking to doesn't already think a Ph.d. is valuable, then it's a waste of time to try to convince them, because they can get someone else just as easily.

The two things that work are to either find someone that is already convinced that a Ph.D. is useful (and that works best of the person that is interviewing has a Ph.D.), or to just have people ignore the Ph.D.

asking for a sizeable pay increase over the masters position but have no practical job experience.

If the employer doesn't specifically need a Ph.D., then there is no point in asking for a pay increase.

Plus its easy to come off as if you are 'settling' to the employer, so in a down economy, it can be quite tough!

It's easy to come off as this because it's the truth. Part of doing sales is to deal with unpleasant facts that are obviously true to everyone.

One problem that Ph.D.'s have to face is the problem of being "overqualified." If the employer happens to believe that Ph.D.'s can walk on water and turn water into wine, and that you are as smart as Stephen Hawking, they may toss your application because they think you are *too smart*. Managers are people too, and it's quite common for a manager not to want to hire someone that has better qualifications than they do because they are terrified that you will take their job. Sometimes being more qualified makes you less qualified.

Dealing with this is part of sales and marketing. What I've done that works is that if I feel like the person I'm talking to is threatened by me, I start acting like Jerry Lewis and the absent minded professor.

 

[symbolipoint]

twofish-quant wrote this:

The two things that work are to either find someone that is already convinced that a Ph.D. is useful (and that works best of the person that is interviewing has a Ph.D.), or to just have people ignore the Ph.D.

Once the candidate progresses far enough through the process for a job, he will need to decide: Pretend not to have a Ph.D, tell them, or merely omit it temporarily. Some employers are afraid of Ph.D candidates for reasons already discussed. Some employers might be afraid of even some candidates who even did undergraduate research for similar reasons.

 

[twofish-quant]

Once the candidate progresses far enough through the process for a job, he will need to decide: Pretend not to have a Ph.D, tell them, or merely omit it temporarily.

1) This issue comes up the second you write the resume

2) As a practical matter, you cannot pretend to not have a Ph.d., because that leaves a huge gap in your resume and if you don't mention that you did a Ph.D., people will assume that you were in jail for dealing heroin. If you have a five to seven year unexplained gap in your resume, it's dead. No one is going to touch it.

The best you can do is to make the Ph.D. irrelevant. I have a version of my resume in which I list the years that I was in university as "programmer". Yes I got a Ph.D. at the end (which I mention in small letters in the resume), but that's irrelevant.

Some employers are afraid of Ph.D candidates for reasons already discussed. Some employers might be afraid of even some candidates who even did undergraduate research for similar reasons.

If you have an employer that doesn't want a Ph.d., then you are just not going to get the job. Your resume will be trashed at the very beginning and there is nothing that you can do about it. But having your resume trashed at the beginning is a *good thing* if you aren't going to get the job anyway.

 

[theengineer83]

"One reason I'm interested in your background is that I'm curious *why* you think it's a fake post. It seems quite reasonable to me."
I am also a PhD graduate in CS, and I do not know any friend (though i network a lot) who is unemployed, or even underemployed (in the sense that he works in a bar or cafe :-) ), but of course it is not always possible to work in the exact position that you want, this is also a hard constraint. Like some of my friends work in management, some in senior development, some are consultant, some in academia ... But this does not mean that you have to work in the exact specific area where you did your research on ...
"most Ph.D.'s are not taught basic sales skills"
Well this is definitely not true. Most of people I know, have very good communication skills, because during the PhD you have to read a lot, develop and write code, present your work. One of my friend is working as CEO and another as team leader, and both are PhDs. I do not know who makes this stereo type about PhDs. If any PhD engineer (but a real PhD and not a fake blogger) is really unemployed (or working in a bar :-) ), please let me know, and let me also know the name of the institution, from which he/she gets her PhD from ...

 

[azaharak]

I have a masters in physics and I had an extremely hard time finding a low paying lecturer job. I had to leave my Phd program due to lack of research support / TA support. It was very stressful and I remember that I was offered a few positions before attending grad school making 30 to 60% more than I'm making now.

There was about a 2 year period where I was unemployed / adjuncting / doing odd end jobs. I had applied to many jobs (over 300), reevaluated my resume and cover letter numerous times. I was even considering a commission with the U.S. Navy Nuclear instructor program before I fell into my current lecturer position.

If I had to do it again, I would have chose something more applied. Now I'm looking into a medical physics program (eventually).

Its definitely not easy, but sometimes you have to look everywhere and outside the box. You definitely need an open mindset and to maintain your sanity, don't get discouraged or depressed because it will lead to a downward spiral.

Its depressing because I know there are people who put less effort into their education and have had an easier time finding work or earning a decent wage. The more difficult the struggle to more stronger you get.

Goodluck

 

[twofish-quant]

Well this is definitely not true. Most of people I know, have very good communication skills, because during the PhD you have to read a lot, develop and write code, present your work.

That's not sales and marketing. Academia is very structured and I don't know of any situation in which a Ph.D. student is asked to call up someone they've never talked to, make a pitch with the knowledge that there is a 95% chance that the person they talk to will say no.

Also much of sales involves less communication than listening skills. Generally in academia you are doing presentations to people with similar backgrounds. Trying to give a presentation to someone of a totally different background with no personal connection to you can be very rough.

 

[turbo]

We should back up a bit and get our heads out of academia. Engineering is quite specific and demands skill-sets that differ not just company-to-company, but plant-to-plant within companies. I was a process chemist in a start-up Kraft pulp mill many years ago. In that setting, I was paired up with newly-minted engineers, training them so that they could be my supervisors later. It was a running joke for us chemists. The career-track for the technical department was geared to accept and promote engineers, but we never got engineers that could hit the ground running, and had to train them on the job. It sucked to earn about 2/3 the bucks of your prize student, but that's life.

After a year or so as an environmental chemist, I got a cushy day job as a project chemist. Guess what I did? I spent much of my time for the next year running heat and mass balances on all the mill's water systems (pulp mills use a LOT of water!). The engineer that I worked with got most of the credit for the $$$$$$ saved, but I was the one who collected the data, and figured out how and where to collect the data to make it usable. Another newer engineer (a drinking buddy of mine) supplied the FORTRAN skills to make our data analysis viable and accessible to the upper management, which was not a negligible contribution by any means. This was back in the day when transmitting data for analysis with SAS back at HQ was an overnight chore.

A degree in engineering (even an advanced degree) does not guarantee one access to good jobs. If I was hiring, I would take a new engineer like my nephew (who was a highly-valued intern at a local paper mill every summer) over an engineer with an advanced degree who had never worked in his/her field. Engineering is applied, not theoretical. Got experience? You'll probably get hired. No experience and no real track-record? You may not get the second look even if you deserve it.

 

[stn]

hi guys
if you deny that a PhD grad should have no problem looking for a job, can you please tell us
1. what companies are hiring a PhDs?
2. where to look for jobs for a PhD level?
3. any website to search?

I also have a similar situation, however, i change a PhD into a research assistant, from then onwards i obtained many interviews...
but, perhaps i also apply for wrong jobs at wrong locations...

some says bioengineering industrial are craving for a PhD grad, but who are those companies, and where? what about Canada industries?? as i am in Canada

thanks

 

[JakeBrodskyPE]

I have noticed that many people go gliding through school with not a thought in their head as to what they'll do when they graduate. You have to have some idea of what you'd like to do by the time you graduate from high school. It doesn't have to be specific, but you ought to know what sorts of things you like doing. Compounding this sense of aimlessness, there is this myth among academic circles that study is its own reward, and that all you have to do is to go to school, graduate, and then magically someone will offer you a job doing exactly what you studied for.

It ain't like that.

Education presents doors of opportunity, but it is up to you to find them and open them. A PhD is an indicator that someone knows how to study things to the edge of human knowledge or experience, discover something, and document it. That skill alone does not translate directly to business success. There are manufacturing, marketing, accounting, ethics, leadership, psychology, and so many more issues that are required as well. A PhD does not necessarily teach those things. In fact, learning all these fields requires a great deal of talent, experience, patience, and circumspection.

It is called personal development. And if you were not also learning these things at home, in your community, and in your hobbies while going to school since your earliest days of Kindergarten, you have missed many lessons.

So you ask where those jobs are for PhD degrees: They're available if you know how to market yourself, how to expand your interests, how to understand the people around you, and how to lead others. From the perspective of someone in Management, a PhD shows that you know how to study something with great discipline and document it for someone else. What that thing may be is almost irrelevant. It is almost certain that what you studied is nearly useless to someone in business today. It usually takes decades and sometimes even centuries for some of these discoveries to sink into common understanding.

To get a career, someone with a PhD must shift gears. Turn your focus from the very specialized to the broader context of what is needed to take this experience and translate it to something useful to someone. I can't tell you where that is, or what that will be.

The honest, brutal answer is that very few PhD programs have direct utility in the regular working world. But if you're thoughtful, outgoing, curious, and willing to try something completely new, you'll do okay.

 

[NegativeDept]

The other thing is that you will find that there are many CS Ph.D.'s that just can't program, which shouldn't be surprising if you think about it.

I'm glad to see people talking openly about this. Has everyone here read about "FizzBuzz" yet? I'd post links, but I'm not allowed to yet because I'm new to PhysicsForums. (Google "FizzBuzz" and click any of the top results.)

One of the astro grad students in my department gave an informal talk about finding a career outside academia with a physics PhD. The short version: "Learn to write working code. It doesn't need to be amazing - just logical and clearly readable. Apply for lots of programming jobs."

He's obviously biased towards coding because he makes a ton of money as a lead programmer at a private company that has nothing to do with astrophysics. But I suspect it's still good advice. Anyone here have some good success/fail stories or related wisdom?

 

[Wayn3]

I'm glad to see people talking openly about this. Has everyone here read about "FizzBuzz" yet? I'd post links, but I'm not allowed to yet because I'm new to PhysicsForums. (Google "FizzBuzz" and click any of the top results.)

One of the astro grad students in my department gave an informal talk about finding a career outside academia with a physics PhD. The short version: "Learn to write working code. It doesn't need to be amazing - just logical and clearly readable. Apply for lots of programming jobs."

He's obviously biased towards coding because he makes a ton of money as a lead programmer at a private company that has nothing to do with astrophysics. But I suspect it's still good advice. Anyone here have some good success/fail stories or related wisdom?

On being able to code:

You should surely know that if you want to make anywhere near 50k or more, your job will be sitting at a desk. The world has changed since the 1950s. Modern desks usually have a computer sitting on top of them. Not being able to code at all states one of two things:

1. Coding is beneath me, I want a personal coding ***** that forges my highly valuable ideas into code.

2. I am delusional enough to actually believe that my future job will be me sitting in a shiny office that contains a comfortable bed on which ill lie down while trying to perform thoughts that all the other employees are too stupid to perform.

While this might not be what you think, this is the impression a hiring manager will have of you. Get your coding skills. Doesnt have to be much. You don't have to be able to code a kernel from scratch. But please, do yourself the favor of picking up rudimentary C++ skills. Show goodwill. Thats all there is to it. Not being able to code is not a big deal. The impression you make saying so is.

Other than that, a physicist who took his theoretical coursework seriously and can code has the best marketable skillset of any graduate. At that point, if you don't get a job, the economy is either at a point where youd rather have learned farming or its something about your character that is just so much off that nobody will give you a job.

 

[NegativeDept]

On being able to code:
Other than that, a physicist who took his theoretical coursework seriously and can code has the best marketable skillset of any graduate.

I hope so, because that's me and I'm about to finish my PhD!

Though like many physicists, "can code" comes with a caveat: we tend to be idiot savants. I suspect that, from a professional programmer's point of view, much of our work looks like cute little single-text-file programs with nightmarishly complicated numerical algorithms.

Examples: I wrote an RSA key generator for fun, but I've never coded a GUI. I can simulate sample paths of stochastic differential equations on Lie groups, but I can't write an iPhone app. Do most employers consider that impressive, embarrassing, or both?

 

[ilmareofthemai]

Examples: I wrote an RSA key generator for fun, but I've never coded a GUI. I can simulate sample paths of stochastic differential equations on Lie groups, but I can't write an iPhone app. Do most employers consider that impressive, embarrassing, or both?

I don't know...I'd like to know the answer to that!

 

[Aero51]

You're not alone. I had to leave grad school in November after getting diagnosed with Manic Depressive disorder. Since then I have racked up $6000 in debt with 2 interviews and 2 rejections, I'm feeling pretty bad myself. At least you have a part time job to keep you going, I got shafted on that too :(. I hate saying "have faith", because I think that's a bunch of garbage, but the consequences of giving up are far worse that toughing it out.

Good luck, you arent alone.

 

[carlgrace]

I don't know...I'd like to know the answer to that!

It depends on the organization. You'd do well to apply to research and engineering companies, rather than to places like Zynga and Dropbox.

You're not alone. I had to leave grad school in November after getting diagnosed with Manic Depressive disorder. Since then I have racked up $6000 in debt with 2 interviews and 2 rejections, I'm feeling pretty bad myself. At least you have a part time job to keep you going, I got shafted on that too :(. I hate saying "have faith", because I think that's a bunch of garbage, but the consequences of giving up are far worse that toughing it out.

Good luck, you arent alone.

I'm sorry to hear about your struggles. I wish you nothing but the best.

 

[nothing_man]

surprise surprise

I noticed this thread and feel a lot of empathy for those who have posted. I too have had similar situations.

I've been working for a number of years as an engineer (started working before completing my PhD). In my experience, there has been a noticeable decline in employer interest, when I list the PhD on my resume in an application to a developer job. I have been in the situation of needing to change jobs quickly, and I've really hit a wall when it comes to being perceived as overqualified. My job search has become most difficult at this point, and it's very frustrating.

Even after I removed the engineering PhD from the resume, I'm still having issues, even with work experience and a job currently. Engineering is apparently so vast of a field that job areas have become very niche. I've found that it's difficult even to move from the area of engineering I have experience with into another area that is "hot" and in greater demand. The best time to break into a new field is right out of undergrad, or right out of a graduate program if one has really no prior work experience.

I feel very stuck with my current line of work. My spouse is creating a lot of pressure for me to change fields into one that's more highly-paid and has better work/life balance. Doesn't sound entirely unreasonable, but doing this has become harder than it initially seemed. I don't want to get too personal about the situation, but it is really bothering me, in addition to my feelings of helplessness.

This situation has come as a big surprise to me after investing years in developing myself academically and professionally. My advice for anyone facing the same hurdle in their job search is: Stay motivated, and give a lot of attention to how you're marketing yourself with your resume. If you come across as too slated towards a specialized area of science or engineering, HR will likely toss your resume aside. Try to convey yourself as someone with a variety of general technical skills (e.g. software development, laboratory work, quantitative analysis). Pitch your dissertation project as a feat of project management. Highlight your presentation skills if you've spoken at scientific/technical conferences. Don't list publications, unless you're applying to research jobs. Computer skills are important, but try to limit what you to list in your resume to what may have broader uses in industry (programming languages and statistical compute packages). Summarizing yourself as a candidate with portable skills wanting to make a career transition at the top of your resume (below name, address of course) might not be a bad idea as well.

Hopefully this didn't come across as completely scattered, and who knows, maybe it will help someone. I wish everyone the best in their job search!

 

[StatGuy2000]

This post dates back to 2011. I'm curious if the OP has been able to find a suitable position in his/her field since that time.

 

[stn]

thank guys for all your emphaty. I am in fact already forgot this post until today, when i want to post a mathematical question, i found out that I already have this account.

Nevertheless, I will answer your question in case you;re wondering how i am surviving.

Let me share with you guys my little secret.
Until today, i still can't find a PhD job!
I did get some interviews, yet their salary offered < what I have now.
So, i reject some of them. This gives me a little bit of boost of self pride though.

Although, i don't have a PhD job, but I am still thankful that I have a job that pays better than a PhD job.
I am currently working as a programmer, or a PLC programmer.

Nevertheless, I am still keep looking to find a PhD job :)

Hope anyone out there can get a bit of hope from my sharing.