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There is no “objective test” that I know of for consciousness.Paul Martin said:Good questions. On the other hand, Why would you think a human has consciousness? How would you tell?
One could ask the agent to provide a report on its experiential states (if it has any), and try to form a judgement from that – but this works only for agents which are able to provide intelligible reports, hence would not work for a dog (unless we can find some way of complex intelligent communication with a dog).
Judgements based on such reports may also be fallible (depends on whether one believes in the possibility of zombies or not).
I think your observation, though correct, misses the point. I did not suggest this as a “sufficient condition”, I suggested it as one way in which consciousness differs from intelligence, to show that intelligence is not (logically) necessarily a subset of consciousness.Paul Martin said:While I agree that consciousness seems to have that ability, I don't think this is a sufficient condition for consciousness.
Agreed, but as I say I did not claim that my post was intended to provide any “sufficient conditions” for consciousness, only that I was trying to point out that consciousness and intelligence can be very different things.Paul Martin said:With respect, I think that all of the functions you describe here can be programmed into a computer and yet not imbue the computer or the program with consciousness.
You remember? I am flattered!Paul Martin said:About a year ago, you and I worked out a mutually-agreed-upon set of necessary and sufficient conditions for free will (in the Libet's half-second delay thread, I believe). Maybe we can do the same for consciousness.
I’ve been unconscious for a while (as far as this forum is concerned)
Hmmm. Ability to “know”. Or ability to “believe”?Paul Martin said:You have provided a starting point in this quote. I think that having these abilities is a necessary condition for consciousness, but I don't think it is sufficient. What is missing, IMHO, is the ability to know that the self-representation has been formed and to know not only that the self-representation is related to the worldly information, but also what the relationship is and at least something about how the two are related.
Knowledge entails truth, whereas belief does not. I do not think it is necessary that a conscious agent have true beliefs in order to claim consciousness, only that it has beliefs (which may be false). I would thus rather favour :
“the ability to form a belief that the self-representation has been formed, and to form a belief not only that the self-representation is related to the worldly information, but also what the relationship is and at least something about how the two are related.”
This condition allows that a conscious agent forms beliefs about how its self-representation is related to worldly information, but (unlike your suggestion) does not require that those beliefs be true. (For example, a brain in a vat could be conscious, but at the same time not believe, hence not know, that it was a brain in a vat).
Hehehehe ….. I answered the previous paragraph before I read the last paragraph! We think alike! In the intervening period of my unconsciousness, I have studied a little and learned a little about the differences between knowledge and belief.Paul Martin said:Now, in light of what I have already learned from you, I don't insist that the knowledge be infallible, except for some single bit of primordial knowledge at the very top of an enormously broad and deep hierarchy of knowledge. Thus, at the very top, the agent could declare with absolute certainty that "I know that I think I know that I think I know that..." We have been through this once before, so I think you know what I am getting at.
I am not sure I agree with your claim that the agent could declare with absolute certainty that "I know that I think I know that I think I know that..."
I think the best any agent can ever claim (with absolute certainty) is that “I believe that I know……..” etc.
Nice to meet you again,
Best Regards
MF