Exploring the Interplay of Time & Change: Examining Time Dilation

[tanzanos]

Is change possible without time? Also is time possible without change? What is the correlation between the two and how does time dilation affect change?

 

[muppet]

Your question is quite vague... what precisely do you mean by "change"?

 

[tanzanos]

By change I mean a state that differs from its previous state.

 

[muppet]

Well, yes... but then it depends what you mean by "state".
Classically, change is something that can only occur over time. The "state" of a system is something you'd describe in terms of the values of fields, or the position of particles, all of which would vary smoothly with time. In a relativistic setting, each spacetime point would have a precise specification of field strengths, particles present at that positon, etc. Time dilation wouldn't really have much to do with it; it's more of a statement about the co-ordinates a person is using to describe spacetime.
In QM, however, things are different, as we don't have the same causality in operation. State becomes a technical term, and can vary either smoothly with time- as when a system evolves in time as prescribed by the Schroedinger eqn- or instantaneously, as when a system in a superposition of eigenstates of some observable is measured. Schroedinger's description of "these dammed quantum jumps" refers to instantaneous transtions between atomic energy levels, which is not without empirical support.

 

[Naty1]

A convenient way to think about time and change is from the famous quote

Time is nature's way of keeping everything from happening at once.

In general, change is not possible without time; another way to think of that is that space and time and energy apparently emerge from quantum vacuum together...and as soon as they do "change" is also born...

Time dilation does affect change. For a fast moving space traveler, her time is slowed and that means she actually ages less (her metaBOLISM IS SLOWED) as observed from another reference frame; radioactive decay also slows in such circumstances as does radioactive decay in a strong gravitational potential, say close to a black hole horizon, relative to a weak gravitational potential, say out in relatively empty space.

But also note that since general relativity and quantum theory are in some circumstances two conflicting theories it's quite possible we have a lot more to learn regarding time...and all the other variables as well for that matter.

 

[disregardthat]

"At once" is meaningless without the concept of time, so the quote is ironic. But it hits the spot nevertheless. Change from one state to another can be seen as a series of events. Time is the concept of the order of these events. Change is meaningless withouth the concept of time. Just as shape is meaningless without a concept of space. These are not facts which needs scientific proof; time and space is part of the definition of change and shape respectively.

 

[tanzanos]

Change from one state to another can be seen as a series of events.

If it is a series of events then would I be correct to state that change is stepped? And if so then what defines the boundary between one state to another?

 

[disregardthat]

If it is a series of events then would I be correct to state that change is stepped? And if so then what defines the boundary between one state to another?

We define the boundary. If we can observe a difference in a situation from one time to another we can say there has occurred change.

 

[tanzanos]

We define the boundary. If we can observe a difference in a situation from one time to another we can say there has occurred change.

How does time affect the boundary? what is the boundary?

 

[disregardthat]

How does time affect the boundary?

I believe your question itself is flawed. How can the necessary medium for the order of any series of events define the difference between the events?

what is the boundary?

The boundary is most likely relative to the human observer. A person who looks at a metal plate would not observe any change. (given that the plate doesn't change color) Now, if the person held his hand on this metal plate he would observe a change. The state of the plate would be considered different from what it earlier was. This could be put in rigourus context like the physical definition of temperature and its quantification.

The perspective of these two events (a cold plate and a hot plate) in a certain order like "the plate was cold, then it became hot" requires a concept of time. This ordering of events is fundamental to our understanding of the world.

 

[petm1]

What is any boundary? All energy is bound in the present, if you can think of time not just as the number generated by counting changes as in a clock (local), but more as the function of the changes themselves (global).

 

[tanzanos]

What is any boundary? All energy is bound in the present, if you can think of time not just as the number generated by counting changes as in a clock (local), but more as the function of the changes themselves (global).

So basically you are saying that change is not stepped because time is not stepped? How do we know that a change has occurred if change is not stepped? If it is then there has to be definitive boundaries between each state of change. Now what is that boundary; and how does time effect that boundary?

PS: I am not thinking of time as a number but as the "operator"

 

[petm1]

So basically you are saying that change is not stepped because time is not stepped? How do we know that a change has occurred if change is not stepped? If it is then there has to be definitive boundaries between each state of change. Now what is that boundary; and how does time effect that boundary?

PS: I am not thinking of time as a number but as the "operator"

Stepped?

 

[tanzanos]

Stepped?

Well how else can I put it? If change has boundaries between each differing state then change is stepped! Change cannot be analogue!

 

[petm1]

Our common accelerated frame earth, dilates relative to all of our proper frames, at a rate of 9.8 meters per second, time like motion? Every part of me knows this except in my mind's eye the photons from all ages that I am processing now denies it. Is this stepped time, I think of it as dilation because it is one thing changing form, larger? The Earth appears to be static in my present, but I like to lay out on the lawn and look up sometimes just to see where I am going.

 

[baywax]

Well how else can I put it? If change has boundaries between each differing state then change is stepped! Change cannot be analogue!

It may only be that our view of change is analog and that the change (itself) is a simultaneous collection of events we can only view as being in transition or transformation.

From our biological stand point it would be fitting (in the survivalist's sense) that we are capable only of perceiving and conceiving of change as a series of transformations with beginnings and outcomes. This could be because the emergent phenomenon of our biological nature is a fragile development that has naturally selected a type of perception that lends itself to our survival.

 

[ThomasT]

Is change possible without time? Also is time possible without change?

You defined change as, "... a state that differs from its previous state", which might be paraphrased as "change refers to an incongruency between two or more recorded spatial configurations of some set of objects", or something like that.

Anyway, I think I understand what you mean by change, and you seem to be using the word in the standard way -- wrt both ordinary and technical language.

Time and change are logically related. Time is change (recording time is recording change), but it's also something more. Time is the index(es) of change.

What is the correlation between the two and how does time dilation affect change?

Time dilation is symmetric. Differential aging is asymmetric and is evidence that accelerations affect the periods of oscillators.

 

[baywax]

You defined change as, "... a state that differs from its previous state", which might be paraphrased as "change refers to an incongruency between two or more recorded spatial configurations of some set of objects", or something like that.

Anyway, I think I understand what you mean by change, and you seem to be using the word in the standard way -- wrt both ordinary and technical language.

Time and change are logically related. Time is change (recording time is recording change), but it's also something more. Time is the index(es) of change.

Time dilation is symmetric. Differential aging is asymmetric and is evidence that accelerations affect the periods of oscillators.

If my foot is 2 weeks older than my leg does that describe asymmetric time dilation?

 

[ThomasT]

If my foot is 2 weeks older than my leg does that describe asymmetric time dilation?

I don't understand your question.

 

[oldman]

...Classically, change is something that can only occur over time... In QM,... State becomes a technical term...and can vary...instantaneously, as when a system in a superposition of eigenstates of some observable is measured. Schroedinger's description of "these dammed quantum jumps" refers to instantaneous transtions between atomic energy levels, which is not without empirical support.

I agree with Muppet and others who say that change and time are inseparable.

But if it were possible for change to occur "instantaneously", as you suggest is the case for state reduction, or energy-level transitions, then this makes change and time separable. There's a conflict here. Or does "instantaneous" in this context just mean "snap, very fast"?

There are of course many theorists who claim that time itself is an illusion (See Julian Barbour's The End of Time and also an article rubbishing this claim, namely The Unique Universe by Lee Smolin in the June 2009 issue of Physics World, at physicsworld.com).

But if time and consequently change were just an illusion, how come life is so much fun to experience?

 

[WaveJumper]

But if it were possible for change to occur "instantaneously", as you suggest is the case for state reduction, or energy-level transitions, then this makes change and time separable.

Why would you say that?

I think this "instantaneousity" strongly implies that Time is not fundamental(together with Space), but emerges at large scales and possibly weak coupling. Which is also one of the the most impressive hints of String Theory that has great philosophical implications for what and how reality really is.

 

[oldman]

Why would you say that?

I think this "instantaneousity" strongly implies that Time is not fundamental(together with Space), but emerges at large scales and possibly weak coupling. Which is also one of the the most impressive hints of String Theory that has great philosophical implications for what and how reality really is.

If by instantaneous one means without any time lapse at all then one is proposing a change outside time --- indeeed separating time and change.

But I'm not aware of any experiments which show that state reduction or quantum transitions aren't processes, i.e. things that take time, which renders this kind of judgement moot.

Your thoughts about Time and Space emerging from string theory are interesting. But are you not thinking perhaps of Loop Quantum Gravity and the work of Loll's group, for example?

 

[Dale]

I know this is probably not what the OP is interested in, but the mathematical or physical operation which defines change is differentiation. So consider a sinusoidal wave in one dimension:

f(t,x) = A cos(wt-kx)
df(0,x)/dx = kA sin(-kx) which is not zero in general.

You can do many other similar exercises. So using a mathematical/physical definition there is indeed a well defined concept of change without time.

However, if you choose an alternate definition of change such as "a state that differs from its previous state" then you have assumed time in the definition of change.

 

[ThomasT]

I know this is probably not what the OP is interested in, but the mathematical or physical operation which defines change is differentiation. So consider a sinusoidal wave in one dimension:

f(t,x) = A cos(wt-kx)
df(0,x)/dx = kA sin(-kx) which is not zero in general.

You can do many other similar exercises. So using a mathematical/physical definition there is indeed a well defined concept of change without time.

However, if you choose an alternate definition of change such as "a state that differs from its previous state" then you have assumed time in the definition of change.

While the time-independence of equations of motion is an interesting point, the way that the word time is used in both ordinary and technical language is in accordance with tanzanos' definition of change. The questions in the OP have been answered.

The meaning (conventional usage) of the words, time and change and motion isn't the mystery. The mystery is about the origins and fundamental dynamic(s) governing any and all time/change/motion.

 

[Dale]

The questions in the OP have been answered.

Yes. My point is that the question and its answer are purely semantic. Once you establish the definition of "change" the answer follows by definition, and for different commonly-used definitions of "change" the answer differs.

 

[petm1]

Well how else can I put it? If change has boundaries between each differing state then change is stepped! Change cannot be analogue!

Close your eyes and feel your one second accelerated frame, outward motion of the present. Now open your eyes and see your one second frame, inward motion from the past. I see a disconnect between this one frame, could this be your stepped?

 

[baywax]

Yes. My point is that the question and its answer are purely semantic. Once you establish the definition of "change" the answer follows by definition, and for different commonly-used definitions of "change" the answer differs.

Literally change is a "Transformation"... transformation is usually a result of a combination of motions of matter or energy. The "trans" in "transformation" describes analog behaviour because it describes the transit and the transfer of matter/energy to another "formation". And the next formation is one that is not considered a "step" in the evolution or transformation of the subject... its just part of the transformation. Judging by this terminology I'd say change is analog without a doubt.

 

[baywax]

I don't understand your question.

Thats because time is a subjective and relative conundrum. Let's say I regenerated a foot to replace one I lost. It is attached and it is 2 days old. My leg is the same age as me. Is there a time dilation/contraction from my leg to my foot? Not really.

I'd like to know what the term "time-dilation" means and where/when/how/etc it can happen.

 

[ValenceE]

Hello all,

here are some thoughts on Change and Time, which I think can apply to all scales…



Change is the product of interaction between (energetic) entities.

Time is what fuels the interaction in which change happens.

Change is always happening, as everything in our Universe is in interaction.

Time can be quantized, becoming the duration needed for any given change to happen.


Change cannot be without Time… no Time, no interaction. No interaction, no change.

Time is infinite and can be without change, existing as the supply of all needed durations.



In their own respective ways, both GR and SR’s time dilation refer to a difference in duration, a quantity of quantized Time. Change, as described above, would not be affected, but the observers, because of their relative motion or position, coupled to the constant speed of light, would indeed measure a difference in durations.


Regards,

VE

 

[muppet]

If my foot is 2 weeks older than my leg does that describe asymmetric time dilation?

It describes some serious medical complications and a mother to whom you should be very, very grateful...

 

[baywax]

It describes some serious medical complications and a mother to whom you should be very, very grateful...

Not really. Put it this way. Let's say you fell and skinned your knee. The tissues there are damaged and torn open. The next few weeks are spent by the surrounding tissues healing and repairing the torn tissue Once that tissue has been restored, it is much younger tissue than the surrounding tissue. So here the time reference for the new tissue is different from the timeframe/reference of the old, surrounding tissue. But, I doubt there is a "time dilation".

Time dilation refers to the old spaceship parked beside a black hole with a video camera trained on a clock in the space ship. There is also a monitor showing a clock on earth. The clock in the spaceship by the black hole is not moving where as the monitor shows the clock on Earth moving, somewhat rapidly, in relation to clock on the rocket ship.

What is it about gravity that does this to our sense of time/change?

 

[ThomasT]

What is it about gravity that does this to our sense of time/change?

I can give you a brief answer to this question, but your other questions regarding time dilation and tissue damage should probably be asked in a new thread in the relativity forum.

Gravity is acceleration. Experiments producing differential time accumulations (differential 'aging') suggest that acceleration increases the periods of oscillators (thus decreasing the accumulation of oscillations, or slowing the aging process). The physical mechanism wrt how this happens is unknown.

 

[baywax]

I can give you a brief answer to this question, but your other questions regarding time dilation and tissue damage should probably be asked in a new thread in the relativity forum.

Gravity is acceleration. Experiments producing differential time accumulations (differential 'aging') suggest that acceleration increases the periods of oscillators (thus decreasing the accumulation of oscillations, or slowing the aging process). The physical mechanism wrt how this happens is unknown.

So this is why approaching and going the speed of light apparently causes the same effect... acceleration?