Exploring the Possibility of a Fifth Fundamental Force

[TENYEARS]

Originally posted by youngandintrigued
Hey TENYEARS do you have any scientific information to tell or are you all philosophy?

Yes I do. I may always keep it to myself or not. I may be full of it or not. Does it really matter? If it were fact tomarrow it would be a word stored in your mind, and idea, and object and nothing more. Gum wrappers on the floor, oil in the street chemical in the ocean. The unsatiable need to consume. I think if all the facts were on the table a vision which I had last summer would come to pass. It is going to come to pass the question is when. When it does, will it be a self fullfilling prophesy?

FZ, good one.

 

[kokain]

I don't know what the Hell tenyears (or eightmile, or fouruglydogs or whatever) is talking about but I do agree that everyone is way off. If you think about this in the same way that everyone else is no one will be correct. How about the other dimensions? However many that there are can all contain however many unknown forces that are virtually invisible to us. One of which could be causing the expanding universe. (I think it is just the unhalted momentum from the BANG) But whatever.

 

[stevek]

Expansion of the universe

As to the mysterious force "pushing" the universe apart, I don't see the big mystery. Why haven't we looked at the electrical nature of the universe. A star emits electrons in the form of "solar wind" . Electrons have a negative charge so wouldn't they constantly charge galaxys more and more negative?

Remember in high school science class when you hung 2 balls of foil on string and used a glass rod and cat fur to charge them both negative. They repelled each other. not a lot of force from a few thousand volts but what about the k'zillions of volts that build up over time in galaxys. Why wouldn't galaxys repell each other in the same way? Has this ever been studied or am I on drugs and don't know it. Stevek

 

[selfAdjoint]

Well in fact they have looked at all that stuff. The fact that electrical nuclei are opposite in sign to electrons means that except in special cases (like your experiment) matter is neutral.

If there were electrical charges working in the galaxies we'd see evidence of repulsion inside them, instead we see evidence of attraction (dark matter). Also the more remote regions of the cosmos are receding from us (and we from them) at speeds higher than light. This is possible with expanding space, but not with moving matter.

 

[one_raven]

Originally posted by Avron
I thought of some sort of "momentum", but that made no sense...something is driving this expansion because it is overtaking the total gravity of mass and dark matter in the universe. I know, very basic to many here...

I apologize if you have already addressed this.
I may have missed it in the other posts.

I am not clear on why do you think that momentum makes no sense.
Because some have offered up evidence of the expansion accelerating?
Is it that you think to overcome the omnipresent force of gravity, then the momentum of the Big Bang is not enough because the expansion itself also needs an omnipresent force?
Sort of equating gravity to the friction of a surface that you slide something across; If you stop applying force, the object will no longer accelerate, rather decelerate, no matter how much original force was apllied... The "original force" dictates how quickly the object will decelerate, but not allow it to accelerate after removed.
Is that what you mean?

 

[hey.like]

Force is a classcal concept

As the force is a achive concept last time, if this concept been taken the next important position, it is hard duty perhaps.

 

[Avron]

5th Fundamental Force

We were doing great until the very last, when it seems several people (or did I not make it clear? Honestly, I am wondering, maybe I didn't) forgot about the acceleration.

It's very true what some have said about basic physics...you start something in motion, it stays in motion unless acted upon by ANOTHER FORCE...I'm talking about the ACCELERATION folks, not the fact that the whole thing got started in the first place...

And I think the key to understanding the GUT, the TOE, SSFT, all of it (as well as my proposal about a 5th fundamental force, due to the acceleration of the expansion)...is held right there in our sister planet, Venus...because she's kinda doing with her atmosphere what the universe is doing...listen:

Nobody understands it yet (actually I do but I can't prove it yet so screw me even saying that, lol) but for some reason Venus's atmosphere is spinning around her FASTER than the planet it's self is rotating.

How did that happen? Even if these huge fan-blades were poking out of Venus up into her atmosphere, that would only do what the last few people have mentioned...get the atmosphere rotating as fast as Venus it's self is, but NOT FASTER...

In order for the atmosphere to be rotating faster than the planet is spinning, SOMETHING ELSE MUST be acting on it...just as for the SPEED at which the universe is expanding to INCREASE. Another force is at work my friends.

I'm not finished here by a long shot...but if any real scientist out there has explained the ACCELERATION of the expansion of the universe OR the reason why Venus's atmosphere is spinning faster than the planet to which it is bound, PLEASE by all means, someone TELL ME...

I will come up with the math in 1 year to prove what I'm saying.

Thank you to you all though; it just seemed we forgot part of the topic there for a minute...Avron (Brian Harred)

 

[Avron]

5th Fundamental Force

To the person that asked why "momentum made no sense to me"...just as an addition to my earlier thoughts above, OF COURSE momentum makes sense...but Momentum does NOT cause acceleration...K? Ciao my friends for now...Avron (Brian Harred)

 

[John]

It could be that space is expanding -- by simple momentum -- faster than the galaxies.

In my model, space itself is expanding against a geometrically buffered form of the strong force! Galaxies are expanding against gravity. So space is slowing down a lot faster than the galaxies. In my model, you can look toward the center of the universe and see space expanding away from you at very very high speeds. In my model, new space is continually being made in a Continuous Bang. Since space itself is expanding, and space is a lot smaller near the center of expansion, but it looks the same size, then if we look to the center, space gets smaller and smaller but appears the same size. So the center appears infinitely far away because the points of space get closer and closer together. In my model, we can look around the center and see space and galaxies expanding away from us faster than the speed of light. The universe has a dipole look to it in my model. If you look directly to the center or directly to the edge, light fades out. If you look past the center, light travels around in a big spiral.

So far, I haven't found one contradiction between my model and what is observed. It all works by momentum, but the idea that distant galaxies are accelerating fits my model. The idea that distant galaxies are expanding faster than light fits my model.

 

[Jeff Savage]

should the question be: Is there any chance that dark matter the effluent of black holes? If this assumption has any merit then it may be interesting to consider that dark matter is a continuously growing pool of ‘something’ as other astral entities are perpetually being consumed by black holes somewhere and ejected as dark matter somewhere else. I would assume that there would be a push/pull assignment to this relation ship at some point as potential would grow eventually to displace/fill/move even the vast emptiness of space or at the very least reclassify that as a charging place.
The other question I would build upon this house of cards would be does “dark matter” have a bias or is it a totally vacant potential awaiting some intruder, into its domain, to bias it one way or the other.
Maybe the universe is being expanded and consumed (stretched and torn) in many directions all at once and at the same time being forced out and away from its more dense center. Sorry no math.
j savage

 

[selfAdjoint]

Dark matter is surely not the effluent of black holes.

Reasons:

1)Black Holes don't have effluents. Hawking radiation is not an effluent, it is formed just outside the black hole. Nothing comes out of a black hole.

2) Black holes are inside galaxies and dark matter is outside and around them.

3) They have recently observed particle energies that are consistent with dark energy, and these tend to support the idea that dark energy is a new light particle. Several theoretical candidates have been proposed.

 

[Nereid]

Originally posted by John
It could be that space is expanding -- by simple momentum -- faster than the galaxies.

In my model, space itself is expanding against a geometrically buffered form of the strong force! Galaxies are expanding against gravity. So space is slowing down a lot faster than the galaxies. In my model, you can look toward the center of the universe and see space expanding away from you at very very high speeds. In my model, new space is continually being made in a Continuous Bang. Since space itself is expanding, and space is a lot smaller near the center of expansion, but it looks the same size, then if we look to the center, space gets smaller and smaller but appears the same size. So the center appears infinitely far away because the points of space get closer and closer together. In my model, we can look around the center and see space and galaxies expanding away from us faster than the speed of light. The universe has a dipole look to it in my model. If you look directly to the center or directly to the edge, light fades out. If you look past the center, light travels around in a big spiral.

So far, I haven't found one contradiction between my model and what is observed. It all works by momentum, but the idea that distant galaxies are accelerating fits my model. The idea that distant galaxies are expanding faster than light fits my model.

Do you have some equations which capture the essence of your model? Could you share with us some quantitative matches between your model and data from astronomical observations, e.g. the distant supernovae research and WMAP?

 

[John]

From selfadjoint: They have recently observed particle energies that are consistent with dark energy, and these tend to support the idea that dark energy is a new light particle. Several theoretical candidates have been proposed.

My dark energy is a photon size particle that defines the shape of all space, like this: you have a line of points.

............

They are all photon size particles that define the shape of space.

Now think of a photon moving down that line like dominos move. The "domino" that is actually falling across the space between points is the photon. The rest of the photon sized particles are dark matter.

These are my only kinds of evidence. In my model, dark matter is photon size particles. Scientists and mathematicians say dark matter might be photon sized particles.

 

[Jeff Savage]

John
that's how I see it as well...the dark matter/energy is the medium of which all atomic force is moved within/upon/through/ not only the aether but everywhere else...
I feel that it helps insulate it as well as amplifing it under certain conditions. that it is like a dialectric as well as a super conductor and everything in between
jeff savage

 

[cajones]

The addition of a fifth fundamental force to the current model looks like it should work, but I haven't seen many of the equations involved so I can't be certain. It also supports the fire breaking up the water-like fuel for the big bang thing.
But one other thing we need to consider is the nature of space, time, and their interaction. Really, isn't time a perceived thing? In order for there to be time, something must happen. If absolutely nothing happens, then time would not pass. What does nothing does not exist. This likely has a lot to do with why we can't get matter to reach absolute zero.
So, in an absolute vacuum in which there is absolutely nothing, there would thus be nothing occurring, unless space has properties that i don't quite know of. Actually, it seems that space is actually a product of time, for in order for things to happen, they must have some place to happen, correct? Anyway, if existence requires activity, then this "empty" space between galaxies must be doing something, which appears to be expanding exponentially. Whether this force is a push or pull, it appears to be a product of emptiness, a less energetic form of the big bang if you will. We can create space that is void of matter and radiation, but something hast o be happening there. You might call this the "time" force, however cheesy that sounds.

Still, the creation of empty space that infinitely grows does nothing, because it is infinite if nothing gives it boundaries. So, there could be an initial flux like that, say, the rippling of a bit of nothingness, and the necessary energy ended up making a rather big "Bang". This energy still has to keep on going, which requires separate forces and dimensions, so it then follows that once the energy loses its title of "active", that it would require more action. Sense it continues to reach smaller and more specific scales, it would "Cool down" and thus have to split in order to conserve space time, and something ends up creating four forces out of all of this. It seems that it could be possible that the fifth force is that of time, or space, or "space time".

 

[cajones]

This would also suggest that everything from the first string broke off into separate ones, sort of a "Force tree". This would suggest that there might be separate sets of dimensions and forces, which might mean that it is possible for there to be multiple multi verses for each "Higher" force. So then, all we really have to try to figure out would be the mechanics involved and why four forces were chosen for our universe. Could other branches of the tree have more forces?

That might mean that our "Grand unification" would only solve a few things about our universe and lead us to keep backtracking. It would basically end up as the same, in a round about way, so all we really have to figure out is if time is infinite or if it has a beginning. Simply by there being time, there is space with these fluxuations, so it would make sense that time could be the highest force. Perhaps, one might say that time plays the strings to make the music of our reality.

 

[Edwin]

Consider the following concept:

There are five 5-d manifolds, five 4-d manifolds, five 3-d manifolds, five 2-d manifolds, five 1-d manifolds, and 5 singular points. The five singularities, are embedded in the five basis 1-d manifolds. The five 1-d manifolds, are sub-manifolds embedded in the five 2-d manifolds. The five 2-d manifolds, are sub-manifolds embedded in the five 3-d manifolds. The five 3-d manifolds, are sub-manifolds embedded in the five 4-d manifolds, The five 4-d manifolds, are sub-manifolds embedded in the five 5-d manifolds. Now, the correspondence between all five 3-manifolds is one-to-one, and onto. All the manifolds 1-d through 5-d are smooth, and therefore differentiable. The correspondence between all the-manifolds is one-to-one, and onto. All n-manifolds are ordered in a series with the other n-manifolds, and there is a one-to-one relation and onto between each of the five singularities. More specifically, the singularities and manifolds' relationships are as follows:

The first of the five singularities, corresponds to one, and only one, singularity to it's right. The second singularity corresponds to both the first singularity to it's left, and the third singularity to it's right...the fifth singularity corresponds to one, and only one, singularity to it's left. The same goes for all the other higher n-spheres. Now, the quantifiable relationship between the first n-manifold, and the manifold to it's right, is such that it is entirely additively displaced into the content of the second n-manifold so that the content of the second n-manifold increases to (1st n-manifold+2nd n-manifold), while the first n-manifold goes to zero, such that, after the displacement, there are only four n-dimensional manifolds remaining. The second relation, is that when an n-manifold is displaced into the n-manifold to it's right or left, all other higher dimensional, and lower dimensional manifolds are displaced, correspondingly, to the next manifold over as well. Thus the singularities and manifolds can be represented by a 6X5 matrix, where the columns represent the dimensions 0,1,2,3, etc, and the rows represent the series relationship between the singularities and n-dimensional manifolds.



| 1st 0-d 2nd 0-d 3rd 0-d 4rth 0-d 5th 0-d |
| 1st 1-d 2nd 1-d 3rd 1-d 4rth 1-d 5th 1-d |
| 1st 2-d 2nd 2-d 3rd 2-d 4rth 2-d 5th 2-d | =D
| 1st 3-d 2nd 3-d 3rd 3-d 4rth 3-d 5th 3-d |
| 1st 4-d 2nd 4-d 3rd 4-d 4rth 4-d 5th 4-d |
| 1st 5-d 2nd 5-d 3rd 5-d 4rth 5-d 5th 5-d |


All columns can be added linearly left to right to make a single row. However, none of the rows can be simply added together, because all manifolds in a given column do not have the same dimensionality. All rows can be put together, but under a special operation that lifts the higher dimensional manifolds into the lower dimensional manifolds. In fact, as we shall see later in this paper, such a lift may veritably describe gravity in four space.

Here is an example of such a lift:

Consider a solid 3 centimeters x 3 centimeters two-dimensional square embedded into a 2-dimensional Cartesian coordinate system [x, y]. The perimeter of the 2-dimensional square is 9 centimeters.

Now suppose you subdivide the square into 9 smaller 1 centimeter squares, and label them as follows:

1cm square 1 1cm square 2 1cm square 3



1cm square 4 1cm square 5 1cm square 6



1cm square 7 1cm square 8 1cm square 9





This square is an example of a 1-dimensional sub-manifold embedded into a 2-dimensional manifold, where the square is the 2-dimensional manifold, and the perimeter of the square is the 1-dimensional manifold that is embedded in the 2-dimensional manifold (square).

The surface area of the 2-dimensional manifold is 9 centimeters squared 9cm^2. The surface area of the embedded 1-dimensional sub-manifold is 9 centimeters 9cm^1=9cm.

Now suppose you cut out square 2, square 4, square 6, and square 8...


1cm square 1 1cm square 3



1cm square 5



1cm square 7 1cm square 9

...like this.




The surface area of the 2-dimensional manifold is decreased by 4 centimeters squared. However, the surface area of the embedded 1-dimensional manifold has increased by 8 centimeters so that the surface area of the 1-dimensional sub-manifold is now 20 centimeters around instead of 9 centimeters around. In addition, the sub-manifold is less smooth. What we have done by cutting out the four 2-dimensional one centimeter squares is lift those 2-dimensional squares into the 1-dimensional sub-manifold resulting in a conversion of the four 2-dimensional squares into the 1-dimensional sub-manifold. By collapsing one of the diagonals of each of the four 1cm^2 squares, that we cut out, we get four 2 centimeter long line segments whose total lengths add up to 8 centimeters, which is exactly the amount of length we had added to the 1-dimensional distance around the 2-dimensional square by cutting out those square segments in the first place. Notice that, although, we cut the square itself, we have not done anything to the Cartesian coordinate system, into which, the solid 2-dimensional square was originally embedded. Now we can continue cutting out 2-dimensional sections of the remaining 5 squares up to infinity, which translates into lifting the entire 2-dimensional surface of the solid square into the 1-dimensional sub-manifold embedded into that square. At this point, the area of the solid square goes to zero, and the distance around the 1-dimensional sub-manifold goes to infinity. In addition, the 1-dimensional sub-manifold is not smooth, but rather, infinitely jagged, and therefore, is no longer a differentiable manifold. Now the 1-dimensional manifold is still embedded in the 2-dimensional Cartesian coordinate plane. Now if we collapse one of the two dimensions composing our 2-dimensional Cartesian coordinate plane, in which, our infinitely long 1-dimensional sub-manifold is embedded, our infinitely long 1-dimensional manifold, will become smooth and only 3 centimeters long.

The general idea is to apply this same technique to the white powdered gold concept, where white powdered gold is held to be a 5-dimensional hyper-spherical manifold with the embedded dimensionality mentioned above.

Let us assume that when gold is in it's ordinary metallic state, that the gold's overall gravitational, and inertial masses are occupying five singularities, five 1-dimensional spaces, five 2-dimensional spaces, five 3-dimensional spaces, five 4-dimensional spaces, and five 5-dimensional spaces. When we convert our gold to white powdered gold, 33% of it's gravitational and inertial mass is converted over to the 3-dimensional space to the right, and therefore 33% percent of all 5-dimensional components of the gold are shifted over to the parallel five dimensions. Now when the temperature is increased to a critical stage, all one hundred percent of the gold is translated from this 3-dimensional space, and to another 3-dimensional space, and it's 4-dimensional space is converted to a parallel 4-dimensional space, and so on, while it's 5-dimensional space, 4-dimensional space, 3-dimensional space, 2-dimensional space, and 1 dimensional space, in our Universe, vanishes, as do all of it's five dimensional components, after which, there is only four sets of 5-dimensional parallel spaces that the gold can transition into. With each transition, the gold's gravitational and inertial mass adds to the gravitational and inertial mass of the gold in the other parallel n-dimensions. The other four transition states would not probably be seen from our perspective, because our reference frame basically goes to zero as soon as the gold transitions completely into parallel dimensions. This is, theoretically, a reversible process that is facilitated by a change in the white powdered gold's temperature.

(Continued in next post)

 

[Edwin]

Continued from last post

(Continued from last post)

...Now the reverse is also true. Suppose that one cools off the white powdered gold. The gold becomes heavier, as it draws it's mass from the other five parallel dimensions. At some critically low temperature, there could be a complete transition of the gold's content from all the five parallel n-dimensional spaces over to our respective spaces, at which point, in 3-dimensional space, the gold will be around 500% heavier. At this point, the other sets of 5-dimensional spaces will vanish from their Universes' perspectives, and there will be only one set of five dimensions that the gold's gravitational, and inertial masses occupy. At this point, any further cooling that requires mass to be gained in the lower dimensions would have to be done by lifting the highest dimensional gravitational and inertial mass, the 5-dimensional gravitational and inertial mass, into the 4-dimensional embedded space, similar to the way we lifted the 2-dimensional solid square into the 1-dimensional perimeter of the square. This will result in the 4-dimensional mass, 3-dimensional mass, 2-dimensional mass, and 1-dimensional spatial mass to increase to infinity. This may be accomplished by shearing. Also, these dimensions will become infinitely jagged similar to the way that the perimeter of the square did. Now just as with the case of the square, the 5-dimensional coordinate system in which all the lower dimensional manifolds are embedded, remains unchanged, so that we have a complicated 4-dimensional non-differentiable structure embedded in a 5-dimensional coordinate system. Now supposing that gold follows the least area principle for energetic ground state stability, then one of the five dimensions composing our 5-dimensional coordinate systems ought to be collapsed into a 4-dimensional coordinate system the same way we collapsed one of the two dimensions composing our 2-dimensional Cartesian Plane causing our 2-dimensional Cartesian coordinate system to be collapsed into a 1-dimensional Cartesian coordinate system. The collapse of the fifth dimension of our 5-dimensional Coordinate system, in which, the infinite 4-dimensional space is embedded, results in a smoothing out of the content of our gold's 4-dimensional gravitational and inertial masses. As happened with our square's formerly infinite perimeter, the surface area of our 4-dimensional gravitational and inertial masses will decrease into a finite value, however, the gold's gravitational mass will still remain infinite in the lower three dimensions, which are x, y, and z spatial dimensions respectively. So now let us assume the fourth dimension to be time. If the gravitational mass of the gold is infinite in three spatial dimensions, and finite in the fourth temporal dimension, then the gravitational force of the gold is also infinite in three spatial dimensions, and finite in the fourth temporal dimension. In other words, the gravitational force would only be infinite at an infinitely short period in time, an instant in time, but would be finite over a finite period of time. The characteristics of such a gravitational field would be such that as time slowed down, the strength of the gravitational field would approach infinity. Albeit, this is exactly how gravity behaves. In the presence of an extremely strong gravitational field, time slows down. If I am correct in my hypothesis, then the reverse may also be true: when time slows down, the strength of a gravitational field becomes extremely strong.

What do you think?

Not making any claims about white powdered gold, just using it to give substance to this hypothetical reasoning.

Inquisitively,

Edwin G. Schasteen