Fifth Graders Charged With Murder Conspiracy

[Evo]

So, these two obviously violent individuals could be released in 2 years or less? I keep reading that serial killers start by torturing and killing animals when they are children. I wouldn't be surprised if these two are also into that, but have also decided to move on to humans.

I'd like to know what kind of parents these two have. I used to regularly check my kid's backpacks for permission slips that needed signing, homework, and hopefully no decaying food that got shoved in and forgotten.

Fifth Graders Charged With Murder Conspiracy

A Washington prosecutor who is charging two boys aged 10 and 11 with conspiracy to commit murder concedes that it is "very rare" to try someone so young, but said the felony charges were necessary because the boys' crime was premeditated and experts determined they were "a danger to others."

The boys allegedly plotted to shoot and stab a girl in their class because she was "really annoying," according to court documents.

Police noted in their report that the boys "did not display any emotion or remorse during the interview." When asked if he knew what he was going to do was dangerous, wrong and unlawful, the 10-year-old replied, "Yes, I just want her dead."

Continued...

http://news.yahoo.com/fifth-graders-charged-murder-conspiracy-danger-others-174305423--abc-news-topstories.html

 

[lisab]

Yikes. No remorse, and apparently no empathy by age 10 or 11? Yeah, that's a bad sign.

I hope the young girl they were targeting isn't affected long-term by this.

 

[Evo]

Yikes. No remorse, and apparently no empathy by age 10 or 11? Yeah, that's a bad sign.

I hope the young girl they were targeting isn't affected long-term by this.

I hope that they plan to warn her when they come up for release. And those other students they want to kill as well.

I wonder how much these sick tv shows that glorify serial killers is to blame for putting these thoughts into their minds? Someone that is mentally/criminally ill can really be affected by exposure to violent games and shows.

Watching the show "Vikings" on the History channel reminds me that being brought up exposed to violence produces violence, especially when it's presented as being the right way.

I'm not saying that normal kids can't be exposed as long as they are brought up in the right environment, so don't start with the "I play violent video games", I'm not talking about you.

 

[jhae2.718]

I'd like to know what kind of parents these two have.

Whoa there...sounds like you're implying that parents might have responsibilities.

 

[Evo]

Whoa there...sounds like you're implying that parents might have responsibilities.

Ok, that made me laugh.

 

[Mentalist]

They are children with underdeveloped brains because they are 10-11, so jailing them for conspiracy to commit murder is something I am not for at all. I'd be in favor of counseling services as that will be much, much more beneficial than juvenile or jail to which they will get out and will be more dangerous than before.

All in all, I believe jail or "juvenile hall" to be rather backwards in approach and that counseling services will provide a better help to these young boys. What these courts are doing is brushing the problem under the rug to which the problem will be out in a few years.

The younger boy said that he had been in a short "dating relationship" with the girl they were targeting, but would not go into any details, according to the court filing.

... They aren't serial killers or would be serial killers. One of the boys was hurt obviously over the break-up, which would explain her "annoyance".

Counseling.

 

[Evo]

They are children with underdeveloped brains because they are 10-11, so jailing them for conspiracy to commit murder is something I am not for at all. I'd be in favor of counseling services as that will be much, much more beneficial than juvenile or jail to which they will get out and will be more dangerous than before.

All in all, I believe jail or "juvenile hall" to be rather backwards in approach and that counseling services will provide a better help to these young boys. What these courts are doing is brushing the problem under the rug to which the problem will be out in a few years.




... They aren't serial killers or would be serial killers. One of the boys was hurt obviously over the break-up, which would explain her "annoyance".

Counseling.

Counseling is called for, but counseling killers/potential killers doesn't do a lot of good.

I can't speak for you, but when I was that age, I definitely knew right from wrong. I knew what death was. I knew it was illegal and I knew the punishment. Kids are much, much smarter and savvy than we pretend, so I have to disagree with your viewpoint. I agree with the psychologists that interviewed the potential killers and with the court that deals with criminals this age. They see something very wrong with these two.

A crush between two 10-11 year olds doesn't end with murder, I can't believe you think that's a reasonable outcome. Not to mention that 10 year olds don't date in this country, at least not outside of states like Mississippi and Alabama. Dating is a very emotionally mature endevour, but for some reason you accept that they were in a "relationship", which ended in a "breakup".

 

[AlephZero]

They are not the "youngest ever" - in this case in the UK, two 10 year olds were convicted of murder.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_James_Bulger

 

[jhae2.718]

They are children with underdeveloped brains because they are 10-11, so jailing them for conspiracy to commit murder is something I am not for at all...

... They aren't serial killers or would be serial killers...

Bringing a knife and a 0.45 caliber pistol to school crosses a line that can't be crossed.

 

[aquitaine]

They are children with underdeveloped brains because they are 10-11, so jailing them for conspiracy to commit murder is something I am not for at all. I'd be in favor of counseling services as that will be much, much more beneficial than juvenile or jail to which they will get out and will be more dangerous than before.

All in all, I believe jail or "juvenile hall" to be rather backwards in approach and that counseling services will provide a better help to these young boys. What these courts are doing is brushing the problem under the rug to which the problem will be out in a few years.




... They aren't serial killers or would be serial killers. One of the boys was hurt obviously over the break-up, which would explain her "annoyance".

Counseling.

The underlying assumption here is that everyone is inherently good. I don't think there's a whole of evidence to support that notion, especially in a case like this.

 

[Mentalist]

Counseling is called for, but counseling killers/potential killers doesn't do a lot of good.

I can't speak for you, but when I was that age, I definitely knew right from wrong. I knew what death was. I knew it was illegal and I knew the punishment. Kids are much, much smarter and savvy than we pretend, so I have to disagree with your viewpoint. I agree with the psychologists that interviewed the potential killers and with the court that deals with criminals this age. They see something very wrong with these two. I believe their emotions are clo

A crush between two 10-11 year olds doesn't end with murder, I can't believe you think that's a reasonable outcome. Not to mention that 10 year olds don't date in this country, at least not outside of states like Mississippi and Alabama. Dating is a very emotionally mature endevour, but for some reason you accept that they were in a "relationship", which ended in a "breakup".

So, we send them to juvenile hall for about 5 years, they get out, and kill people. I am for the position that has a better possibility of minimizing and potentially curbing their would-be violent tendencies.

But to my other point, yes, kids are savvy. But you weren't these kids, nor did you have their particular upbringing as I recall from your biography. Different upbringings happen to everyone, and while most kids are, what I like to think of, "good-natured", there are a few that often misstep and take a wrong path because of circumstances beyond their control.

The psychologist stated that the boys presented a danger to whomever they were targeting or to people, which is understandable why the judge would want them to be far away from the person they were targeting for murder. I get that.

As for the relationship thing, I am using the relationship angle here a bit idiotically, I know, but I think they may be targeting her because one of the boy's is angry with her, and they both may be angry outside of her which would make sense to me seeing that often times its easier to target another person for attack because there is nothing else that can be done or it is hard to think of something to quell a bad situation. Kids aren't automatons that have no feelings, their feelings are often immature such as these boys in this particular case and I am of the assumption they don't have the intellective capacity to handle their emotions.

It's often easy to label someone rather than try to understand that person. Throwing down the hammer and saying, "guilty" won't do anything but suppress their would-be future actions based on what one of the boys said. He stated, "doesn't matter if I go to jail, once I get out, I am killing the person who told on us." (Paraphrased). I say, trying to help them will probably help one of the boys to see what he is doing is wrong. I am an optimist and believe they have potential to turn into productive members.

I honestly think it has something to do with their emotions rather than they being cold-hearted killers. I don't believe they are.

But, to add onto my point above, there have been other child killers. Specifically, The Likens story where a young 16 year old girl was tortured and killed by her aunt and some of the neighborhood children. One of the children participating in this crime John Baniszewski who later in his life, regretted what he had done and now speaks about it to other people that want to just throw the gavel down and call it a day.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sylvia_Likens
http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/notorious_murders/young/likens/18.html

I believe that they should at least try counseling first, and having the family (the kids who brought the weaponry to school) leave the district for the sake of their children.

 

[Evo]

They will be getting counseling. But that doesn't negate the fact that right now they are capable of killing in cold blood and that having come up with this on their own, not following directions of an adult (as in your example), there isn't much hope for them, and that they could be released in a couple of years is frightening.

 

[WannabeNewton]

Lol counseling and mental rehabilitation. What happened to the old days of Hammurabi =D? Anyways, it is sad that people are going so soft on them just because they are kids. They tried to murder an innocent girl with a damn gun for pete's sake. When will people stop being so accommodating to even the most cold hearted of criminals?

 

[Mentalist]

You're right ultimately. They will be released and counseling won't do much if what I alluded to in my previous post of there being circumstances they are unable to control like a bad home environment, are still ever present in their lives whilst counseling.

But here it says they were going to rape the girl and then kill her.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/video/graders-stand-trial-conspiracy-charges-18872683

 

[WannabeNewton]

You're right ultimately. They will be released and counseling won't do much if what I alluded to in my previous post of there being circumstances they are unable to control like a bad home environment, are still ever present in their lives whilst counseling.

It isn't even a matter of "helping" them recover. They deserve to be punished for their heinous intents.

But here it says they were going to rape the girl and then kill her.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/video/graders-stand-trial-conspiracy-charges-18872683

And this just makes their need to be punished infinitely more appropriate. I don't see any need to differentiate them from the ranks of adult rapists. Rapists are rapists period, doesn't matter how old they are they were intending to attempt the most depraved crime a lone human could commit on a poor little girl.

 

[strangerep]

Kinda surprised "gun law reform" has not been mentioned in this thread.

There's been times (rare, fortunately) in the past when I've been absolutely livid at someone, and if I had a weapon it's possible I might have used it in that moment of irrational insanity. Everyone has the potential for "heinous thoughts". But in my part of the world, gun laws are strict, I don't own one, never fired one, never even held a real one. I guess I'll never really understand America.

 

[KrisOhn]

Kinda surprised "gun law reform" has not been mentioned in this thread.

There's been times (rare, fortunately) in the past when I've been absolutely livid at someone, and if I had a weapon it's possible I might have used it in that moment of irrational insanity. Everyone has the potential for "heinous thoughts". But in my part of the world, gun laws are strict, I don't own one, never fired one, never even held a real one. I guess I'll never really understand America.

I don't live in America but I do live in a country where guns are acceptable and I did grow up around guns, using them for hunting and some recreation. In my maddest moments, at any age, I would never have used a weapon against my agressors. I think these kids have more issues than just an exposed childhood.

 

[lisab]

One thing that needs to be sussed out with counselling: did the two boys participate in planning equally, or was one the leader and the other just following? I suspect the latter.

 

[Andre]

Before blaming parents, it may also help to read up on Antisocial Personality Disorder or sociopath.

 

[micromass]

Before blaming parents, it may also help to read up on Antisocial Personality Disorder or sociopath.

And very often, it is environmental factors such as parents which cause such disorder.

 

[Julio R]

So, we send them to juvenile hall for about 5 years, they get out, and kill people. I am for the position that has a better possibility of minimizing and potentially curbing their would-be violent tendencies.

But to my other point, yes, kids are savvy. But you weren't these kids, nor did you have their particular upbringing as I recall from your biography. Different upbringings happen to everyone, and while most kids are, what I like to think of, "good-natured", there are a few that often misstep and take a wrong path because of circumstances beyond their control.

The psychologist stated that the boys presented a danger to whomever they were targeting or to people, which is understandable why the judge would want them to be far away from the person they were targeting for murder. I get that.

As for the relationship thing, I am using the relationship angle here a bit idiotically, I know, but I think they may be targeting her because one of the boy's is angry with her, and they both may be angry outside of her which would make sense to me seeing that often times its easier to target another person for attack because there is nothing else that can be done or it is hard to think of something to quell a bad situation. Kids aren't automatons that have no feelings, their feelings are often immature such as these boys in this particular case and I am of the assumption they don't have the intellective capacity to handle their emotions.

It's often easy to label someone rather than try to understand that person. Throwing down the hammer and saying, "guilty" won't do anything but suppress their would-be future actions based on what one of the boys said. He stated, "doesn't matter if I go to jail, once I get out, I am killing the person who told on us." (Paraphrased). I say, trying to help them will probably help one of the boys to see what he is doing is wrong. I am an optimist and believe they have potential to turn into productive members.

I honestly think it has something to do with their emotions rather than they being cold-hearted killers. I don't believe they are.

But, to add onto my point above, there have been other child killers. Specifically, The Likens story where a young 16 year old girl was tortured and killed by her aunt and some of the neighborhood children. One of the children participating in this crime John Baniszewski who later in his life, regretted what he had done and now speaks about it to other people that want to just throw the gavel down and call it a day.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sylvia_Likens
http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/notorious_murders/young/likens/18.html

I believe that they should at least try counseling first, and having the family (the kids who brought the weaponry to school) leave the district for the sake of their children.

I read the whole essay and in my opinion those people deserved worse than they got, even John he did horrible things to her. So in my opinion the kids in the OP should also be considered criminals.

 

[jim hardy]

it's a safe bet they're imitating behavior they learned someplace.

Every superhero since Mighty Mouse wreaked violence on his tormentors.
Normal kids know it's fantasy
but some smoldering psyches take it as permission.

We're too far away to diagnose is it Nature or Nurture.

http://www.angelfire.com/wi/GreenGreen/survivors6.html

 

[Andre]

And very often, it is environmental factors such as parents which cause such disorder.

That seems to be a more complex issue according to Stout, who writes:

"biology is half the story" in the cause of sociopathy---environmental factors account for the other half of the explanation. These specific factors remain unclear. While child abuse seems an obvious determinant, some evidence suggests that sociopaths are less influenced by childhood experiences than normal individuals.

 

[glueball8]

Different upbringings happen to everyone, and while most kids are, what I like to think of, "good-natured", there are a few that often misstep and take a wrong path because of circumstances beyond their control.

Hi Mentalist, this isn't really relevant to the thread but are you Chinese?

I think it is ridiculous to say "Rapists are rapists period" about 10 years olds. I certainly didn't really know much about right and wrong at 10. I think morals and knowing right and wrong has to be developed.

I think society has the blame here. When a 10 years old can bring a gun to school, somethings definitely not right.

But fundamentally you guys are talking about the question whether a baby is good, evil or based on conditioning can be good or evil, or depends on the baby(So some babies are good and others are evil.).

So we have:
Jim Hardy - Conditioning
Andre -depend on baby mostly
micromass- conditioning
KrisOhn - depend on baby mostly
Evo - By the fact that it seem your judgement on the two kids have been made "depend on baby"
Mentalist - Everyone is born inherently good
aquitaine - Not everyone is born inherently good
wannabeNewton - depend on baby mostly.
I personally can't decide.

 

[OmCheeto]

Hi Mentalist, this isn't really relevant to the thread but are you Chinese?

I think it is ridiculous to say "Rapists are rapists period" about 10 years olds. I certainly didn't really know much about right and wrong at 10. I think morals and knowing right and wrong has to be developed.

I think society has the blame here. When a 10 years old can bring a gun to school, somethings definitely not right.

But fundamentally you guys are talking about the question whether a baby is good, evil or based on conditioning can be good or evil, or depends on the baby(So some babies are good and others are evil.).

So we have:
Jim Hardy - Conditioning
Andre -depend on baby mostly
micromass- conditioning
KrisOhn - depend on baby mostly
Evo - By the fact that it seem your judgement on the two kids have been made "depend on baby"
Mentalist - Everyone is born inherently good
aquitaine - Not everyone is born inherently good
wannabeNewton - depend on baby mostly.
I personally can't decide.

Can't decide?

hmmm...

I think morals and knowing right and wrong has to be developed.

I'll tally you up for conditioning, if you don't mind.

 

[glueball8]

Can't decide?

hmmm...
I'll tally you up for conditioning, if you don't mind.
/QUOTE]

Oh haha... but I do believe that we are born with some very bad traits.(With evolutionary benefits.) So I can't decide if conditioning is more important.

How do you identify sociopaths? I can't tell if your being sarcastic... :/

 

[OmCheeto]

Can't decide?

hmmm...



I'll tally you up for conditioning, if you don't mind.

Oh haha... but I do believe that we are born with some very bad traits.(With evolutionary benefits.) So I can't decide if conditioning is more important.

How do you identify sociopaths? I can't tell if your being sarcastic... :/

I'm not a behavioral neuroscientist, so my use of the term "sociopath", should be taken with a grain of salt. They are people I would describe as "martyr parasites".

 

[ChiralWaltz]

In fifth grade, I did not know what to think. My pituitary gland was waking up and those girls were so confusing! Here is the story of our over active hormones.

A good day was ravioli, chocolate milk and an early release from lunch to the play ground. We laughed and drank juice while unknowingly separating ourselves based on gender. On this particular day, I noticed a robustness about a female classmate of ours on the soccer field. I laughed with a "friend" that she probably wore a bra. Innocent boyish laughter among boys. Fifth grade grape vines travel seem to be made of photons and the word spread at light speed..

2 hours later, at the end of the day, our class was loading up onto the buses and standing outside. The breasted one sauntered up to me, asking:

Her:"Did you say anything about me today?"

Me:*looking at my feet* "Uhhh no."

Her:"Well if you did you can tell me..."

Me: "I didn't"

Her: "So and so said you talked about my chest. Please tell me. You can trust me. I won't be mad."

Me: "I said you probably were a bra."

Her:
http://podcast.nlcast.com/wp-content/uploads/slap.jpg

That was the first and second to last time I was slapped by a girl. What hurt the most was her dishonesty and my cheek. I probably thought ill of the young lass at the time. Heck, I may have called her names in my journal.

Anyway, what I'm saying here is kids are honest. Brutally so. Our job is to direct them towards an overall beneficial future for the human species. This call goes out to parents as well as those without kids. Call them your brother or sister if it helps. It doesn't take long to improve a life. A smile in the supermarket, waving in the car, can make a child's day memorable. I wish I could have been there sooner.

 

[Astronuc]

The choice of weapon is rather irrelevant. What is relevant is that two boys have decided that it is acceptable to kill another person (pre-medidated murder) over a trivial matter of ill-feeling toward the other person. Apparently, they do understand it would be wrong, but nevertheless, they intended to harm the intended victim. If they accomplished this deed, they would very likely feel justified to commit further offenses on others.

The 'why' has yet to be answered. Perhaps they are predisposed to such selfish acts, or perhaps they have learned that such behavior is acceptable. Perhaps the authorities (counselors) will explore the background of these individuals to discern those events that lead them to conclude that homicide is an acceptable action in dealing with their ill feelings towards others.

 

[dlgoff]

They 'why' has yet to be answered. Perhaps they are predisposed to such selfish acts, or perhaps they have learned that such behavior is acceptable.

At first I thought I was in the Quantum Physics forum when I saw the 'why'.

Anyway I thought this might apply.

Questions that cannot be answered through scientific investigation are those that relate to personal preference, moral values, the supernatural, or unmeasurable phenomena.

http://science.education.nih.gov/supplements/nih6/inquiry/guide/lesson2.htm

 

[Astronuc]

With regard to the boys' "moral values", an appropriate professional would have to probe 'why' the boys believe it is acceptable to kill another human for whatever reason, including where or how did they develop that notion. A trickier question would be - would they likely do it again? However, one is faced with uncertainty in the answers. These are more or less legal questions, as opposed to scientific questions like those in physics or chemistry.

 

[dlgoff]

These are more or less legal questions, as opposed to scientific questions like those in physics or chemistry.

I guess I've been to PF too much. Just sayin'.

Yea. One reason I'm not a lawyer.

 

[jim hardy]

I believe the purpose of incarceration is not punishment, which amounts to old testament revenge, but protection of society through either rehabilitation or isolation(or termination) of bad actors.

Legally can we imprison somebody because of crimes they might commit ?
Or must wait for them to act ?

That's why Conspiracy laws were written.
What's the threshold where you lock somebody away?
Hinckley, Loughner, Lanza come to mind.
I need to ponder this before I get called to such a jury.

 

[Astronuc]

I guess I've been to PF too much. Just sayin'.

Yea. One reason I'm not a lawyer.

Well, in theory, science and the law are about the pursuit of truth, and they are human endeavors that rely upon the integrity of the individuals who practice science or law.

 

[AlephZero]

Legally can we imprison somebody because of crimes they might commit ?
Or must wait for them to act ?

In the UK, conspiracy to commit some types of crime is an offense (but it may be difficult to prove).

Once somebody has been convicted of something, then the UK has the concept of "indefinite sentences" - i.e. you don't get released until you convince the authorities that you are no longer a danger to society. This has been used in cases where the "standard" sentence for an offense would be only a few months.

The other alternative is action on the grounds of mental health - containment in a secure hospital. But that is problematic, in that something has to happen to make the authorities get involved, even if the "something" isn't actually criminal.

I need to ponder this before I get called to such a jury.

Not really. I've done jury service. The jury's task is to consider a particular case on the merits of the evidence, not construct a general philosophical theory of the meaning of "justice". (And in the UK, the jury only decides on guilt or innocence, it isn't involved in sentencing as I believe happens in the US)