Find the number of distinct real roots

  • MHB
  • Thread starter anemone
  • Start date
  • Tags
    Roots
In summary, we have discussed a problem involving finding the number of distinct real roots of the equation $f(f(x))=0$. By analyzing the behavior of $f(f(x))$, we have determined that the equation has 7 distinct real roots. This was a collaborative effort, with Balarka providing an alternative approach and Opalg being a source of inspiration.
  • #1
anemone
Gold Member
MHB
POTW Director
3,883
115
Let $f(x)=x^3-3x+1$. Find the number of distinct real roots of the equation $f(f(x))=0$.
 
Mathematics news on Phys.org
  • #2
Just asking

I am getting Total no. of real solution is $ = 7$

Is is Right or not

Thanks
 
  • #3
Quite a nice bit of a problem you've got there. Here's my solution --

Finding the real roots of \(\displaystyle f(f(x)) = 0\) is equivalent to finding the ones of \(\displaystyle f(x) = x_i\) where \(\displaystyle x_i\) for i = 1, 2, 3 are the (real) roots of f(x).

We see that the roots of \(\displaystyle f(x)\) are all real as the discriminant is positive. An inspection of \(\displaystyle f(x) = x^3 - 3x + 1\) can be considered at the intervals \(\displaystyle [-2, -1] \cup [-1, 0] \cup [0, 1] \cup [1, 2]\) to find out that three roots lie precisely in between the first, third and the fourth interval.

Note that for the equation \(\displaystyle f(x) = x_i\) to have all real root, the discriminant must be positive, implying the \(\displaystyle -2 \leq 1 - x_i \leq 2\). The first root lies between [-2, -1], so \(\displaystyle 1 - x_1\) lies in between 2 and 3 and hence the discriminant comes down to a negative value, so one real root here exists and the other twos are complex conjugates of each other in \(\displaystyle \mathbb{C}\).

For the second root, it lies between 0 and 1, so \(\displaystyle 1 - x_2\) lies in between 2 and -2 obviously enough. The same applies for the third root. So we have 3 real roots each for these two.

So, the total number of real roots are 1 + 3 + 3 = 7.

Balarka
.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • #4
jacks said:
Just asking

I am getting Total no. of real solution is $ = 7$

Is is Right or not

Thanks

Yes, 7 is the correct answer!:)

And thanks to you, Balarka, for participating and for your correct answer with your nice method!
 
  • #5
mathbalarka said:
Finding the real roots of \(\displaystyle f(f(x)) = 0\) is equivalent to finding the ones of \(\displaystyle f(x) = x_i\) where \(\displaystyle x_i\) for i = 1, 2, 3 are the (real) roots of f(x).

.
Hey Balarka,

I really like it you mentioned that to solve for $x$ in \(\displaystyle f(f(x)) = 0\) is equivalent to solve for \(\displaystyle f(x) = x_i\) where \(\displaystyle x_i\) for i = 1, 2, 3 are the (real) roots of f(x).

And if I may use this idea to solve for the problem, I found out the total number of real roots for \(\displaystyle f(f(x)) = 0\) are 7 as well, and this method is so much better than my first approach and thank you, Balarka for showing me something that I don't know!

View attachment 1575
Solving for the number of real roots of \(\displaystyle f(x) = x_1=root_1\) means the same thing as finding the number of intersection points between the curve $y=f(x)$ and $y=root_1$, as shown by the green line and we see that in this case we have only one real root for \(\displaystyle f(x) = x_1=root_1\).Solving for the number of real roots of \(\displaystyle f(x) = x_2=root_2\) means the same thing as finding the number of intersection points between the curve $y=f(x)$ and $y=root_2$, as shown by the purple line and we see that in this case we have only one real root for \(\displaystyle f(x) = x_2=root_2\).Solving for the number of real roots of \(\displaystyle f(x) = x_3=root_3\) means the same thing as finding the number of intersection points between the curve $y=f(x)$ and $y=root_3$, as shown by the orange line and we see that in this case we have only one real root for \(\displaystyle f(x) = x_3=root_3\).

So there are a total of 7 intersection points and hence there are 7 real roots for \(\displaystyle f(f(x)) = 0\)!

Thanks!
 

Attachments

  • f(f(x))=0.JPG
    f(f(x))=0.JPG
    54.2 KB · Views: 100
  • #6
anemone said:
this method is so much better than my first approach

May I see your approach on this problem?

Balarka
.
 
  • #7
mathbalarka said:
May I see your approach on this problem? Balarka .

My first approach revolves around checking the nature of the curve of the function of $f(f(x))$ from its first and second derivative expression. If we let $f(x)=x^3-3x+1$ and $g(x)=f(f(x))=(f(x))^3-3(f(x))+1$, we find

$f(x)=x^3-3x+1$$g(x)=f(f(x))=(f(x))^3-3(f(x))+1$
$f'(x)=3x^2-3=3(x^2-1)=3(x+1)(x-1)$

$\rightarrow f'(x)=0$ iff $3(x+1)(x-1)=0$ or $x=\pm1$.
$g'(x)=3f(x)^2f'(x)-3f'(x)=3f'(x)((f(x))^2-1)$

$\rightarrow g'(x)=0$ iff $x=\pm1$, $x=\pm \sqrt{3}$, or $x=-2$ or $x=0$.
$f''(x)=6x$$g''(x)=6f(x)(f'(x))^2+3f''(x)((f(x))^2-1)$

I then made another table to determine the nature of the critical points as follows:
$x$-2$-\sqrt{3}$-101$\sqrt{3}$
$f(x)$-1131-11
$f'(x)$960-306
$f''(x)$-12$-6\sqrt{3}$-606$6\sqrt{3}$
$g(x)$3-119-13-1
$g'(x)$000000
$g''(x)$-486216-144540216

And plot a rough sketch to determine the number of real roots of the function of $f(f(x))=0$:

View attachment 1584

From the graph we can tell there are 7 real roots of the function of $f(f(x))=0$.
 

Attachments

  • Graph ff((x)).JPG
    Graph ff((x)).JPG
    33.6 KB · Views: 80
  • #8
Hmm... very nice. I like the way you analyzed the behavior of f(f(x)), very well done. Mine may have been a little time consuming but this one is more representative.

PS I particularly like this solution. (Mmm)
 
  • #9
mathbalarka said:
Hmm... very nice. I like the way you analyzed the behavior of f(f(x)), very well done. Mine may have been a little time consuming but this one is more representative.

PS I particularly like this solution. (Mmm)

Thank you for the compliment, Balarka!:eek:

And I must give full credit to Opalg, a very nice mentor here for giving me idea (from another question) to solve the problem!
 

FAQ: Find the number of distinct real roots

What is the definition of distinct real roots?

Distinct real roots refer to the number of unique solutions that a polynomial equation has when solved for the variable. These solutions must be real numbers, meaning they are not complex or imaginary.

How do you find the number of distinct real roots?

To find the number of distinct real roots, you can use the fundamental theorem of algebra, which states that a polynomial equation of degree n will have n distinct complex roots. To find the number of distinct real roots, you can use synthetic division or the rational root theorem to determine the number of real roots before solving for their values.

Can a polynomial equation have more than one distinct real root?

Yes, a polynomial equation can have multiple distinct real roots. The number of distinct real roots is equal to the degree of the polynomial, but it is possible for some of these roots to be repeated. For example, a quadratic equation can have two distinct real roots, but they can also both be the same value.

What is the difference between distinct real roots and repeated real roots?

Distinct real roots are unique solutions to a polynomial equation, while repeated real roots are solutions that occur more than once. In other words, distinct real roots are different values, while repeated real roots are the same value. For example, the equation x^2 - 4x + 4 = 0 has two repeated real roots of x = 2, while the equation x^2 - 5x + 6 = 0 has two distinct real roots of x = 2 and x = 3.

Can a polynomial equation have no distinct real roots?

Yes, it is possible for a polynomial equation to have no distinct real roots. This occurs when all of the solutions are complex or imaginary numbers. For example, the equation x^2 + 1 = 0 has no real roots, as the solutions are complex numbers (±i).

Similar threads

Replies
1
Views
1K
Replies
2
Views
2K
Replies
2
Views
897
Replies
1
Views
1K
Replies
1
Views
944
Replies
4
Views
1K
Back
Top