For irreversible process from state 1 to 2, why can the system not be isolated for reversible process from 1 to 2?

  • #1
zenterix
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Homework Statement
There is a basic derivation about entropy that is shown below that I still have doubts about even though I am able to do various calculations involving entropy.
Relevant Equations
Consider an isolated system and an irreversible process A from state 1 to state 2.
Then

$$q_{irrev}=0\tag{1}$$

Take the system from state 2 back to state 1 using a reversible process B.

My first question is: why can the system not be isolated for this reversible process to be possible?

Assume we have a non-isolated system in process B.

Process A and process B together form an irreversible cycle.

$$\oint dS<0\tag{2}$$

$$\oint dS=\int_1^2 dS_{irrev}+\int_2^1 dS_{rev}\tag{3}$$

$$=\int_2^1 dS_{rev}\tag{4}$$

$$=S_1-S_2<0\tag{5}$$

$$\implies S_2-S_1>0\tag{6}$$

From (3) to (4) we used the fact that ##dS_{irrev}=\frac{\delta q_{irrev}}{T}=0##.

(6) tells us that the entropy always increases for an irreversible process in an isolated system.

This is the basis for saying that entropy never decreases in the universe.

The universe is an isolated system so any irreversible process in it generates entropy increase.

Any reversible process in the universe is done such that

$$\delta q_{sys,rev}=-\delta q_{surr,rev}$$

$$d S_{sys,rev}=\frac{\delta q_{sys,rev}}{T}$$

$$d S_{surr,rev}=\frac{\delta q_{surr,rev}}{T}=-\frac{\delta q_{sys,rev}}{T}$$

$$\implies dS_{univ}=dS_{sys,rev}+dS_{surr,rev}=0$$

Thus,

$$dS_{univ}\geq 0$$
 
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  • #2
zenterix said:
Homework Statement: There is a basic derivation about entropy that is shown below that I still have doubts about even though I am able to do various calculations involving entropy.
Relevant Equations: Consider an isolated system and an irreversible process A from state 1 to state 2.

Then

$$q_{irrev}=0\tag{1}$$

Take the system from state 2 back to state 1 using a reversible process B.

My first question is: why can the system not be isolated for this reversible process to be possible?
The isolated system's entropy change is positive when it goes from state 1 to 2 irreversibly
and the surroundings' entropy change is zero since nothing happens in the surroundings.

For a reversible process between the same states (from 1 to 2) the system's entropy change is the same as for the irreversible process since entropy is state function.
For the process to be reversible the total entropy change has to be zero.
Therefore the surroundings' entropy change has to be negative.
This means heat has to leave the surroundings and enter the system and the system cannot be isolated.
 
  • #3
"From (3) to (4) we used the fact that dSirrev=δqirrevT=0." That's not a fact, this is wrong. You always have to calculate the entropy change using the heat exchanged in a reversible process.

Btw, there is the formulation of the second law according to Caratheodory: "In the neighbourhood of any equilibrium state of a physical system with any number of thermodynamic coordinates, there exist states which are inaccessible by adiabatic processes."
The prototypic example is that of stirring a propeller in a viscous fluid: You are only doing work on the system, so dq=0. But this work is dissipated in the fluid, increasing its internal energy. The only way to bring back your system into the state where it started from, is by removing heat over the boundary.
 
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Likes Philip Koeck

FAQ: For irreversible process from state 1 to 2, why can the system not be isolated for reversible process from 1 to 2?

1. What is the difference between reversible and irreversible processes?

A reversible process is one that can be reversed without leaving any change in the system or surroundings, while an irreversible process cannot be reversed without some net change occurring. In a reversible process, the system is always in equilibrium, whereas in an irreversible process, the system moves through non-equilibrium states.

2. Why is isolation important for reversible processes?

Isolation is crucial for reversible processes because it ensures that no energy or matter is exchanged with the surroundings. This allows the system to maintain equilibrium throughout the process, which is a key characteristic of reversibility. Any interaction with the surroundings can introduce irreversibility.

3. What happens during an irreversible process that prevents isolation?

During an irreversible process, the system often experiences gradients in temperature, pressure, or concentration, leading to spontaneous changes that drive the system away from equilibrium. These gradients require the system to interact with its surroundings to dissipate energy, making isolation impossible.

4. Can a process be partially reversible? If so, how?

A process can exhibit partial reversibility if it consists of both reversible and irreversible stages. For example, a system may undergo a reversible expansion followed by an irreversible heat exchange with the surroundings. However, the overall process cannot be considered fully reversible if any part of it is irreversible.

5. How does the concept of entropy relate to reversible and irreversible processes?

Entropy is a measure of disorder or randomness in a system. In reversible processes, the total entropy change of the system and surroundings is zero, reflecting equilibrium. In contrast, irreversible processes result in an increase in total entropy, indicating that the system has moved toward a more disordered state and cannot return to its original condition without external work.

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