GRE for USA PhDs? (and a couple more questions)

[ergospherical]

I'm considering returning for a Physics PhD next year, after a year out in industry. I've submitted five European applications (2 UK and 3 mainland...), and have got good references from my old supervisors. I'm considering a couple of speculative USA applications to two research groups I'm interested in.

Neither of my main supervisors have sent a PhD student to the USA in the last 5 years. So I'm trying to figure out some stuff myself. This test called the GRE --- would it help my chances in a meaningful way? My main supervisor has essentially told me NO, because my academic record for undergraduate + Masters is pretty good. The specific programs that I'm applying to also say that it's optional (specifically, "recommended but not required"...?). That's a bit confusing. Does anyone have first-hand knowledge?

I've also got a research paper in the pipeline, with a first author credit, and we're hoping to get this out in the next month or two. Should I wait until I've got a pre-print published until submitting the US applications? It's my understanding that research experience is much more important for them (by contrast, for the UK applications, my supervisors have basically said that it'll help, but it's not a big deal if it's not finished?).

Deadlines for these groups are early/mid December -- so less time than it seems! Thanks.

 

[jedishrfu]

I'm sure it would be a safe bet, but it's safer still if your advisors know shortcuts through some trusted network.

The GRE shouldn't be a problem for you like it was for me. I wanted to pursue my graduate physics PhD at the university where I work. However, although we had an educational work benefit, Graduate school required me to apply just like any student.

And that meant taking the GRE after having been out of the academic world for billions and billions of years. Sadly, it was a showstopper as I couldn't use my old GRE scores. I did reasonably well on it in the 1980s, but times change, and the GRE test scores have a shelf life of five years.

One glimmer of hope came when a professor at work suggested an alternative route. He said if I could find a dissertation-worthy project at work, work on it, and present my findings to the physics department, then perhaps a dissertation committee could be set up to oversee my PhD research, including what courses to take to bolster my degree. Sadly, that never panned out, as no such project could be found, including even the ones I suggested.

 

[Vanadium 50]

You should take it. See how you do, and then decide where, if anywhere, to send it.

 

[gmax137]

If it were me, I would try to include everything that is "recommended, " even if it isn't "required."

 

[berkeman]

I'm considering returning for a Physics PhD next year, after a year out in industry.

Wow, how time flies! I still remember when you were a brilliant first year student at uni posting here. Just wow.

Your Profile shows your degree ended up being in Maths, but many of your posts here seemed to be in Physics. Are the two subjects/degrees tied very closely in the UK (sorry if I should know this).

 

[Vanadium 50]

And if he tanks it? I don't think sending a bad score around will be helpful, even if recommended,

 

[ergospherical]

Wow, how time flies! I still remember when you were a brilliant first year student at uni posting here. Just wow.

Your Profile shows your degree ended up being in Maths, but many of your posts here seemed to be in Physics. Are the two subjects/degrees tied very closely in the UK (sorry if I should know this).

It’s felt quick to me! I did my Masters with the Maths department, although I still took “Physicsy” courses. I’ve applied for Maths PhD programmes at the two UK unis I mentioned, but the line is blurred.

 

[ergospherical]

If it were me, I would try to include everything that is "recommended, " even if it isn't "required."

I suspect this is right, since the competition is high and any edge is valuable. My reservation was that I don’t know what % of (successful) UK-based applicants do the GREs, or whether it’s more for American applicants. I already had exams which counted for well over half my Masters grade, for example.

 

[berkeman]

I did my Masters with the Maths department, although I still took “Physicsy” courses.

Which GRE are you looking at taking? The PGRE and/or the MGRE?

https://physicsgre.com/viewtopic.php?t=3872

 

[ergospherical]

Looks like it would be the PGRE.

 

[berkeman]

Looks like it would be the PGRE.

Great! I'll show you mine if you show me yours. (Mine is from 40 years ago, so you know, the Physics has changed...)

Edit/Add -- You will nail that test. Have fun.

 

[ergospherical]

Mine is from 40 years ago, so you know, the Physics has changed...

40 years is nothing at all… maybe 400 years!

Cheers and hope you are well @berkeman, and thanks everyone for your suggestions.

 

[ohwilleke]

The application details for individual programs should clearly state if the GRE is required or not. If it is required and you want to apply to that program, you need to take it. GRE requirements have been in flux lately, but as far as I know, some programs require it.

 

[Hornbein]

I'm considering returning for a Physics PhD next year, after a year out in industry. I've submitted five European applications (2 UK and 3 mainland...), and have got good references from my old supervisors. I'm considering a couple of speculative USA applications to two research groups I'm interested in.

Neither of my main supervisors have sent a PhD student to the USA in the last 5 years. So I'm trying to figure out some stuff myself. This test called the GRE --- would it help my chances in a meaningful way? My main supervisor has essentially told me NO, because my academic record for undergraduate + Masters is pretty good. The specific programs that I'm applying to also say that it's optional (specifically, "recommended but not required"...?). That's a bit confusing. Does anyone have first-hand knowledge?

I've also got a research paper in the pipeline, with a first author credit, and we're hoping to get this out in the next month or two. Should I wait until I've got a pre-print published until submitting the US applications? It's my understanding that research experience is much more important for them (by contrast, for the UK applications, my supervisors have basically said that it'll help, but it's not a big deal if it's not finished?).

Deadlines for these groups are early/mid December -- so less time than it seems! Thanks.

I had a huge GRE score. It didn't help much. What profs want is specialized knowledge and skills helpful for their research.

 

[Choppy]

The PGRE is often used as a kind of mitigator (my experience is in the Canadian system). If the admissions committee is not familiar with your undergraduate institution, they will have a hard time gauging whether your GPA has been subject to inflation, or if you went through a particularly challenging program. The PGRE puts you on an even playing field with other applicants. It's not always used as a be-all and end-all signpost, but it gives the committee another data point to consider when ranking you against other applicants. If you don't include it in your application, then it's one less data point. So, factors to consider in whether or not taking and submitting the exam is worth it would include:
- your current GPA and relative standing in your program
- the general reputation of your undergraduate institution
- any specific successes/failures of students from your undergrad program in the grad school of interest
- the opportunity cost of studying/preparing for it (what will it mean for your grades, research, etc.)
- confidence in your ability to do well in it
- the strength of the rest of your application (i.e. research experience, reference letters, extra-curricular activities, etc.)

 

[Vanadium 50]

While all of this is true, I don't see how it affects the strategy,

• If they won't look at it, don't send it,
• If they require it, send it,
• If it's optional, send it if it is a good score.

Why do anything else?

 

[jedishrfu]

Also there are multiple levels of filtering going on when you apply. The graduate school admin people make sure all parts of your application are provided before they forward it to the department.

Next the department will screen out the lessor candidates and finally the profs will pick out the ones that best match their projects. This is where the specialized knowledge and internships come in as handy differentiators.

 

[ergospherical]

I will just get it done then because I don't see the downside apart from the (crazy) fee. If I'm going to make my supervisors write a couple more letters of recommendation, I may as well make the effort so that they're not wasting their time...

 

[jedishrfu]

You might also want to invest in some GRE test training so you can learn the tricks of taking the exam.

https://www.google.com/search?q=phy...AGBYYHhgPmAMAkgcEMTMuN6AHm54B&sclient=gws-wiz

 

[gwnorth]

I think you need to clarify if you're talking about the general GRE or the Physics GRE subject test. Typically the GRE is most helpful for applicants from undergraduate programs the admissions committee is unlikely to be overly familiar with or from countries/universities that are not known for the rigour of their education. The other thing is that GRE scores can either be "not required and not accepted", "not required but accepted", "not required but recommended", and "required". Other than the first and last categories, how much influence submitting or not submitting a GRE score with your application rests on a few factors.

In your favour for not needing to submit:

- that you already have a master's degree and it's from the UK, an education system that most graduate admissions committees should be familiar with

- you say your GPA from both undergrad and master's are "pretty good" (though that requires clarification)

- you have extensive relevant research experience and potentially a first author publication

- you're likely to have very strong letters of recommendation

This needs to be weighed against:

- whether you're talking about the GRE or PGRE

- the reputation of your master's granting institution for Physics and that of your letter writers

- how competitive the field you want to pursue is for admission (with HEP-th and cosmology being particularly in high demand)

- how selective the specific programs you want to apply to are for admission

In general, the greater the selectivity a program is for admission, the more value to submitting a GRE score, especially when it's "recommended".

Overall however I would have to say that since you already have a master's degree, which is a higher credential than is required for admission to the programs you want to apply to, that it's from the UK, and given the strength of the rest of your profile, you probably would be safe not to submit. That's just my opinion though.

The other thing to consider is how much you really want to do a PhD in the US vs Europe. If Europe really is your preferred goal and you would not be upset to not get admits in the US, then I'd probably be less inclined to bother with submitting GRE scores as well.

Good luck

 

[ohwilleke]

- that you already have a master's degree and it's from the UK, an education system that most graduate admissions committees should be familiar with

Even at the graduate level, U.S. graduate admissions committees at all but the very creme de la creme of graduate programs are quite parochial and may be considerably less familiar with the U.K. education system than you'd think. Unless you graduated from Oxford or Cambridge, you should assume that they have only a dim familiarity, if any at all, with the institution you attended.

 

[gwnorth]

Even at the graduate level, U.S. graduate admissions committees at all but the very creme de la creme of graduate programs are quite parochial and may be considerably less familiar with the U.K. education system than you'd think. Unless you graduated from Oxford or Cambridge, you should assume that they have only a dim familiarity, if any at all, with the institution you attended.

I did add the caveat of

- the reputation of your master's granting institution for Physics and that of your letter writers