Griffith's Solutions Manual: To Copy or not to Copy?

[frenchdonuts]

Hi,

This isn't a homework problem per say but a question about the homework problems in textbooks assigned to upper-division undergraduates. To give some context:
I am currently taking my last quarter of EM and using Griffith's book. Since the solution manual is very easily found online, pretty much all my peers(and I) are just using the solutions manual instead of actually doing the problems, and we all do pretty well on tests(though the problems are easier than the ones assigned in homework).

My question is: are we really supposed to be able to do ALL of the problems in these textbooks? How badly are we shooting ourselves in the foot by not actually doing these problems? I feel that a lot of these problems involve mathematical tricks that would involve hours of playing around with the equations.

 

[jedishrfu]

the hours and hours plus math tricks is the whole point. The reps that make you strong not the fact that you know how to lift the weight. We learn from our mistakes. So what do you learn by copying the solution from the solutions manual?

In truth if a problem came up at your job finding a solution may speed you along. However in this case, you really want to explore all facets of a problem and solve it like you were the first one doing it. Think how deep your knowledge would be then vs someone always looking for the trick formula to apply.

 

[micromass]

Hi,

This isn't a homework problem per say but a question about the homework problems in textbooks assigned to upper-division undergraduates. To give some context:
I am currently taking my last quarter of EM and using Griffith's book. Since the solution manual is very easily found online, pretty much all my peers(and I) are just using the solutions manual instead of actually doing the problems, and we all do pretty well on tests(though the problems are easier than the ones assigned in homework).

My question is: are we really supposed to be able to do ALL of the problems in these textbooks? How badly are we shooting ourselves in the foot by not actually doing these problems? I feel that a lot of these problems involve mathematical tricks that would involve hours of playing around with the equations.

What you are doing is completely and utterly unethical. A college degree means something, it means that you went through the hard work. By doing what you do, you are devaluating college degrees. You are a cheater and you don't deserve the degrees you get.

Furthermore, what you're doing is very stupid as well. You're basically not learning anything. So you pay thousands of dollars for a degree but you refuse to learn?? What's the point of going to college then?

What if you're in a real job later and your boss/professor/supervisor sees that you can't do the work assigned to you?? This will happen because you're cheating your way through college.

 

[Ben Niehoff]

Hi,

This isn't a homework problem per say but a question about the homework problems in textbooks assigned to upper-division undergraduates. To give some context:
I am currently taking my last quarter of EM and using Griffith's book. Since the solution manual is very easily found online, pretty much all my peers(and I) are just using the solutions manual instead of actually doing the problems, and we all do pretty well on tests(though the problems are easier than the ones assigned in homework).

My question is: are we really supposed to be able to do ALL of the problems in these textbooks? How badly are we shooting ourselves in the foot by not actually doing these problems? I feel that a lot of these problems involve mathematical tricks that would involve hours of playing around with the equations.

If you can't do Griffiths problems, then physics might not be the right degree for you.

As someone mentioned, learning how to attack a problem, to play around with equations and discover mathematical tricks, is the entire point. You already know the basic "physics" of E&M...after that, these classes are about mathematical techniques like separation of variables, etc.

 

[WannabeNewton]

If you think Griffiths problems are long then boy are you in for a surprise come Jackson.

 

[Pengwuino]

Yeah, what's the point of cheating? A high GPA? The second you get fired from your first real job because you're incompetent due to always taking the easy road, your college degree won't mean much.

I knew a lot of people who copied their way through their BS and MS. None of them have jobs in the field because they couldn't cut it and never learned much anyways. I'm not going to say that they got jobs they could have received with a high school education, but if you just want a piece of paper, try going into some kind of finance or communications major :P Just passing a course doesn't make you a physicist.

 

[Vanadium 50]

Do you mean that Jackson solutions take longer to find on the web?

 

[Doc Al]

Do you mean that Jackson solutions take longer to find on the web?

 

[AlephZero]

Lots of people are getting indigmant about this, but it seems like a double win for me.

The fewer kids straight from college who know anything, the better my job security is. And more people fighting for jobs mowing lawns, emptying trash, and flipping burgers will keep their wages low, which is fine by me when I'm too busy working to do that stuff myself.

So stick with your plan. The less you learn, the better I like it

 

[Sankaku]

So stick with your plan. The less you learn, the better I like it

Best answer so far

 

[Pengwuino]

Do you mean that Jackson solutions take longer to find on the web?

The best part is half of the solutions I've ever seen for Jackson have been wrong.

 

[DeadOriginal]

To answer the OP's question. You didn't shoot yourself in the foot. As you can see from the posts before mine, you basically shot yourself in the head.

 

[Astronuc]

My question is: are we really supposed to be able to do ALL of the problems in these textbooks? How badly are we shooting ourselves in the foot by not actually doing these problems? I feel that a lot of these problems involve mathematical tricks that would involve hours of playing around with the equations.

Yes - the point is to do the homework, i.e., all the problems in one's textbook. The point is to learn and understand the theory, then be able to apply it, not only to existing problems, but the new problems. The point is to become proficient with the mathematics, which are the tools with which one solves problems.

One cannot fake one's way through the professional world. And the answers are not in the back of any book.

 

[jtbell]

are we really supposed to be able to do ALL of the problems in these textbooks?

With Griffiths E&M, you should definitely be able to do all the "in-line" problems that are scattered through each chapter, and a decent selection of the end-of chapter problems. Don't feel too bad about skipping the ones marked with an exclamation point, though.

 

[Pengwuino]

Also, you should be able to do all of the problems, but that doesn't mean you should actually do them. You only have so much time and textbooks give repetitive problems (that is, problems with very little variation in the solution method) simply to give instructors flexibility in what problems to assign.

 

[ModusPwnd]

A problem is that GPA is important too, not just learning. You can struggle and learn and get a B or cheat and get an A, guess who will get the scholarships and grad school offers?

In the end, to get ahead you need to do both. You need to buckle down and spend real time studying to actually learn and you need to skirt the rules whenever you can to compete with the other cheaters.

Its unfortunate that your teacher puts you in this position by assigning pre-made problems rather than their own. Teachers who take the easy way out by not making up their own problems make it difficult for students who don't really wnat to cheat. I hated it when my professors would assign book problems because I knew my classmates would then get immaculate scores and I would have a harder time out competing them.

 

[Skrew]

If you're doing OK on the tests then you are likely getting the information the instructor expects you to get out of the course.

Not directly relevant to what you wrote but so far as an undergrad people always did homework in groups and copied off each other. It's nothing shocking or new and most instructors expect it.

Well that's assuming you were social, if you were anti social you did everything alone.

 

[micromass]

If you're doing OK on the tests then are likely getting the information the instructor expects you to get out of the course.

Not directly relevant to what you wrote but so far as an undergrad people always did homework in groups and copied off each other. It's nothing shocking or new and most instructors expect it.

Well that's assuming you were social, if you were anti social you did everything alone.

If you're unable to solve Griffiths, then you're not doing ok. Even if you're getting good grades.

And yes, people often study in groups. But there's a big difference between studying in a group and explaining things to each other and copying things from the internet.

 

[Skrew]

If you're unable to solve Griffiths, then you're not doing ok. Even if you're getting good grades.

And yes, people often study in groups. But there's a big difference between studying in a group and explaining things to each other and copying things from the internet.

I'm not seeing the difference between copying someones work in person and copying someones work over the internet. In that same regard I don't see the difference between following how someone solved a problem online and following how someone solved a problem in person.

Group study usually consists of 1-2 competent students and the rest of the people following what the competent students are doing.

 

[micromass]

I'm not seeing the difference between copying someones work in person and copying someones work over the internet. In that same regard I don't see the difference between following how someone solved a problem online and following how someone solved a problem in person.

Group study usually consists of 1-2 competent students and the rest of the people following what the competent students are doing.

Then that is cheating. Doesn't matter what everybody does: it is unethical and it ruins your opportunities later on in life.

 

[ModusPwnd]

I'm not seeing the difference between copying someones work in person and copying someones work over the internet. In that same regard I don't see the difference between following how someone solved a problem online and following how someone solved a problem in person.

Group study usually consists of 1-2 competent students and the rest of the people following what the competent students are doing.

There is no effective difference. One is allowed within the rules and social norms, one is not. Each can be either helpful for learning or undercut your education.

 

[Skrew]

There is no effective difference. One is allowed within the rules and social norms, one is not. Each can be either helpful for learning or undercut your education.

Of course, which was my point.

 

[TMFKAN64]

The best part is half of the solutions I've ever seen for Jackson have been wrong.

Yes, I was about to say, it's not that it takes more time to *find* Jackson solutions than Griffiths, but you have to take more time making sure that the solutions are actually correct.

 

[fluidistic]

Many problems of my assignments are taken form Jackson's book. I didn't find any solution on the Internet for most of the problems. Once in a while I'm lucky and find a solution to a particular problem; usually I looked for it because I was stuck. I check it out in order to get the idea and then I try to solve the problem on my own. Contrarily to the OP my tests are actually harder than the problems in the assignments (sigh). For me there's no point in copying the answers from an external source because the homework isn't graded, only exams taken at university are.
Unless I missed it in a post, I think you never said whether your assignment is graded or not. I can only doubt that they would grade it especially if most people in your class use the same source of copying and pasting. A single mistake in the source and you all guys fall.
In short, consulting (not copying brainlessly) the solution manual can keep you going forward when you're stuck. Copying brainlessly to get a better grade should be a problem that your professor could spot and fix with making tests with exercises of the level of Griffith's book.

 

[frenchdonuts]

Woah,

Did not expect so many emotionally charged replies. However, I still appreciate everyone who has given feedback. What I am getting is yes, you are supposed to be able to do all the problems in Griffiths - even as an undergrad.
As for how badly am I shooting myself in the foot? I'm getting: depends on if you are still taking the time to understand the solutions.

Thanks everyone!

 

[chiro]

Woah,

Did not expect so many emotionally charged replies. However, I still appreciate everyone who has given feedback. What I am getting is yes, you are supposed to be able to do all the problems in Griffiths - even as an undergrad.
As for how badly am I shooting myself in the foot? I'm getting: depends on if you are still taking the time to understand the solutions.

Thanks everyone!

If your learning is relying on answers at the back of the book, it should tell you something.

If your learning however does not rely on this and you end up actually learning what you need to learn and understand it in a way that is comprehensive and in an independent manner at the end of it all, then that is OK.

Personally I think that as long as you are able to use your 'training experience' (i.e. university) in a way that will allow you to know how to approach unknown problems of a particular type independently and allow you to find the answer using any resource you need without actually depending on anyone specifically for the major parts of the answer and the answer itself, then you're doing fine.

The thing is getting what you need to get done: if you can do that and you know what you are really doing, then that's the main point.

 

[YAHA]

A problem is that GPA is important too, not just learning. You can struggle and learn and get a B or cheat and get an A, guess who will get the scholarships and grad school offers?

In the end, to get ahead you need to do both. You need to buckle down and spend real time studying to actually learn and you need to skirt the rules whenever you can to compete with the other cheaters.

Its unfortunate that your teacher puts you in this position by assigning pre-made problems rather than their own. Teachers who take the easy way out by not making up their own problems make it difficult for students who don't really wnat to cheat. I hated it when my professors would assign book problems because I knew my classmates would then get immaculate scores and I would have a harder time out competing them.

I concur with everything you have said. I have been in very much the same position with the QM class using Griffiths book. About 2/3 into semester I found out that the rest of the class was utilizing the solutions manual to do their homeworks whereas I would spend hours on some problems. Additionally, I did everything manually whereas others often used Mathematica to simplify calculations. What was the outcome for me? A+ in QM class. and I am pretty sure I was the only one to ever receive a "+" designation.

Now, I would like to expand on something you said. Specifically, not only does the honest student suffer in that particular class because of the people using the manual, but also, he suffers in other classes. The cheater spends less time worrying about homework for the class in question and thus has more time to dedicate to other classes. Therefore, not only does his GPA possibly improve in that particular class, but also in some others.

I agree with your diagnosis of the cause of the problem. There is a huge disconnect between the level of examples and presentation vs. end of section/chapter problems in Griffiths book(s?). I know everyone says that you should be able to solve the problems, blah blah blah. Let me just tell you, Griffiths is an atrocious book (I speak for QM, do not have experience with his EM yet). Use others such Shankar, Zetilli, which discuss things in a much more structured way and actually show you how to work problems before you attempt your own.

Lastly, the above mentioned disconnect forces the students to use the solutions manuals. Professors should either realize that there are better books out there or make up their own problem sets to level the playing field and eliminate cheating.

 

[Vanadium 50]

Yes, one benefits from cheating. One also benefits from robbery. Should we promote that as well?

In science, integrity is everything.

As far as "just write different problems", why should honest students have to deal with inferior problems because of dishonest ones?

 

[YAHA]

Yes, one benefits from cheating. One also benefits from robbery. Should we promote that as well?

In science, integrity is everything.

As far as "just write different problems", why should honest students have to deal with inferior problems because of dishonest ones?

No one is talking about promoting cheating. In fact, it seems that everyone argues for the opposite. "why should honest students have to deal with inferior problems because of dishonest ones?" On similar note, why should honest students suffer from existence of manuals which are easily obtainable and lead to dilution of grading quality and injustice? don't get me wrong, the problem ultimately lies with those who choose to use the manuals in dishonest manner. However, often times, the honest students are oblivious to the existence of manuals and suffer unknowingly as a result of actions of dishonest students. The point is that if professors know about such possibility, they should do more to ensure just outcome.

 

[ModusPwnd]

As far as "just write different problems", why should honest students have to deal with inferior problems because of dishonest ones?

Because the book problems have solutions available that dishonest students will use. Thats why.

If the teacher is only capable of writing inferior problems then that is the fault of a poor teacher. Good teachers can and do write their own problems.

 

[Jorriss]

If the teacher is only capable of writing inferior problems then that is the fault of a poor teacher. Good teachers can and do write their own problems.

That's not fair or true. Many textbooks have had their problems refined over decades and even in the case of new textbooks, the authors spends months - years coming up with the problems. It's unreasonable to expect a teacher to just make up problems that are as good as textbook problems.

Many teacher I have had assign textbook problems that are not from the course textbook though.

 

[ModusPwnd]

I think it is true, and fair. Its not that hard for an expert to author homework sets. But yes, it does take some time. That is part of the duty of being a teacher.

 

[RoshanBBQ]

I will say absolutely everyone in all of my classes has solution manuals (when they're for a book where the solution manual is found with a simple Google search). I will also say studying is more efficient with a solutions manual - you can do extra problems and check them as well as mentally do problems and check your strategy.

The underlying problems are clear: the fact that homework is even graded and that solutions (or at least answers) are not handed to all students from the beginning.

I had an AP physics teacher in HS that graded on effort (you put anything down and get full credit) and gave us the final answer for each problem. I highly admire this system. You can do it this way or simply not grade homework at all might also work.

The issue is one of distributed blame. I hate when people pretty much presuppose only one person can be at fault. For example, if someone steals from you, it is always 100% seen as his fault. But what if you were flashing hundred dollar bills sadistically in the middle of an impoverished area? We cannot reasonably say the boaster was not at fault a bit there. So yeah, each student is at fault for cheating, but so is it each of the teacher's fault for enforcing the broken system.

 

[Jorriss]

I think it is true, and fair. Its not that hard for an expert to author homework sets. But yes, it does take some time. That is part of the duty of being a teacher.

It's not that hard, but it could be hard to come up with better, more insightful problems, than the hundreds and thousands of problems that already exist.

The time part just depends for me. If a professor is hired as, say, a lecturer I'd probably have a higher expectation to spend time developing homeworks and such.

I actually don't fully disagree with you but I think the easiest alternative is for professors to just assign HW from a different, or several different, textbooks and just pretend they are their own :P

I had an AP physics teacher in HS that graded on effort (you put anything down and get full credit) and gave us the final answer for each problem. I highly admire this system. You can do it this way or simply not grade homework at all might also work.

I agree. I like when graders grade on completeness as well as accuracy but put down anything and get full credit is not right either.

 

[Angry Citizen]

If a class has a solutions manual the way yours does, then the ethical thing is to use it as well. But it's up to you to take charge of your own education in that circumstance. Don't copy the answer. Make an honest attempt at every single problem, the way your professor wants you to. Then it's ethical to check your work with the answers and the answers alone. Find out the ones you got wrong, then try to discover what went wrong. If you're just plain stumped, peek at the solutions and find out exactly what went wrong, but never just copy.

There's no logical reason for tying one hand behind your back. It hurts your efforts to get into grad school and in the job market. But like I said, you have to be responsible about it. Get the gist of what your professor wants you to get out of the experience, and you'll be in a better position than the people who are just gaming the system. Voice of experience here. Don't just copy the manual!