Help Change the World: Share Your Ideas for Green Homes

[Ivan Seeking]

I am in the unique position of being able to implement ideas for green homes immediately for production. If you have any ideas that you would like to share, we will consider your ideas and may use them. It is a chance to help change the world a little bit.

Yes I do benefit from this but not from the raw idea, so I can't offer any financial returns. Note also that any information posted that is not already protected becomes public domain.

I will be paid to help implement ideas that we use.

 

[Evo]

How about letting the electric company control your thermostat so that you can't use more than your fair share? <runs and hides>

 

[Ivan Seeking]

How about letting the electric company control your thermostat so that you can't use more than your fair share? <runs and hides>

I think instead we will let logic control the thermostat. And since I will be writing the program, it appears that I will be controlling your thermostat! <wild howl and fanatical laughter>

 

[chroot]

Check out the Passivhaus:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passive_house

They represent, IMO, one of the most imporant advancements in habitat construction ever.

- Warren

 

[russ_watters]

Buy an energy efficient air conditioning system and furnace. You'll be better than LEED certified, which inexplicably does not give extra points for efficiency (they require only the federal requirement). Get a zoned system and a good programmable thermostat. The savings can be huge.

Research heat pumps (air and ground source), but don't fall for the hype: find out of they are really appropriate in your area.

Similarly, insulate it well, and don't skimp on the windows. Double-pane, reflective, etc.

 

[chroot]

Russ,

In many climates, the Passivhaus doesn't need any heating or cooling system at all. That's hard to beat. Superinsulation and airtightness are critical for energy efficiency.

- Warren

 

[binzing]

Our new house is very green. Its straw bale on 3 sides and the south side is cinder block, with multiple fake windows going to black painted cinder blocks. So it is effectively a trom (sp?) wall. Also the floor is Santa Fe bricks with radiant heating. Hope this gives you some ideas.

 

[jim mcnamara]

There is a fairly new heat pump technology -geothermal. Its uses electricity solely for the heat pump itself. It uses the ground as a heat sink/source. It also acts a domestic hot water heater.

See:
http://www1.eere.energy.gov/geothermal/heatpumps.html

We almost installed one, but the quotes for the only system approved for installation in our area were way too high to justify them. Now there is competation and the price dropped dramtically...

 

[RonL]

I am in the unique position of being able to implement ideas for green homes immediately for production. If you have any ideas that you would like to share, we will consider your ideas and may use them. It is a chance to help change the world a little bit.

Does this mean things already on the market, or is your group able and willing to do R&D ?

 

[OmCheeto]

We had a similar discussion at my old forum.
Here is one of my ideas:

http://home.europa.com/~garry/atticheat.JPG

As everyone knows, the sun deposits around 1000 watts per square meter onto the earth.
So your roof, even collecting just a fraction of this energy as heat in the attic, can be used as a heat source.
The main cost of the system is of course the solar panel.
Everything else can be purchased at either the junk yard or off the shelf for less than $200.
I would imagine if you wanted a new radiator and fan it would probably run you around an extra $300.


My other idea was to dismember both an old refrigerator and clothes dryer.
Replace the heating element in the dryer with the guts from the fridge.
Might take a bit longer to dry your clothes, but I'm sure the energy savings would be significant.
You'd also have to hook your dryer up to the drain system in the house as you'd no longer be pumping the heat and moisture outside but condensing it inside the house.


One thing I've currently got hooked up is whole house navigation lighting.
This consists of LED lighting around the perimeter of each room.
It casts about as much light as the moon and consumes about 1 watt of energy per room.
Of course you can't read, cook, or do much besides walk around with that little light.
But if I forget to turn them off when I go to work, I only waste about 10 watt-hours of energy vs 600 watt-hours if I left on a 60 watt bulb.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Does this mean things already on the market, or is your group able and willing to do R&D ?

Both.

Thanks for the contributions so far everyone.

 

[turbo]

One season-dependent idea is to install a valve in the vent of a clothes-dryer. Around here, houses get very dry in the winter, so capturing the waste heat AND moisture from the dryer would be a great thing in the winter.

 

[RonL]

If everyone will promise to put away the label makers, i have an idea that i have sketched by hand. But first would like to see if there might be a general agreement by staff, of two of my personal motto's.
1. "There is no such thing as a stupid idea, any idea produces, one of two, or both, the opportunity to use or apply what we know, or the impetus to learn more".
2. "A crackpot is someone that presents something that is impractical, or impossible, and refuses to accept clear and documented proof that the presentation is wrong".

I think Danger, and i share about the same reason for being connected to PF. It seems he would like to build a hovercraft, and so would i, and after looking at some of his posts, there are other things we have in common but time will tell.

Let me know if it's ok to post a picture.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Thanks RonL. You can post it as an attachment. If we find something to be objectionable then we won't approve it for general viewing.

 

[lisab]

The heat dumping out of the refrigerator should be vented outside on a hot day, or stay inside on a cold day.

Capture (and filter, maybe?) the gray water for use in the garden, or other uses where non-potable can substitute for fresh.

BTW, I went to a "green building" expo a while back, and was surprised to see the number of things there that dubiously labeled "green." It's a term that's being thrown around by marketers so much, I'm suspect when I see it.

 

[binzing]

Rainwater can be collected and used, via gravity feed, to flush the toilets in the house.

 

[OmCheeto]

Rainwater can be collected and used, via gravity feed, to flush the toilets in the house.

I did the calculations on that one day (I live near you Ivan so listen up). My roof catches exactly the amount of water I use in a year. But I would require 76 blue barrels to be completely independent of the water system. It's those darn dry summer months. I suppose during the rainy seasons you could get by with a couple of barrels and cut your water bill to zero.

One idea that is not a good idea(let me know if you want me to delete this part) is to generate electricity from the water collected from your roof. I determined that I could cook 3 packets of top ramen per year by doing this.

 

[binzing]

Yeah, I am not saying use just that, but to alleviate the need for city water, you could try it. Or use a waterless toilet. I was at our mall today and saw that they have waterless urinals that use a special valve that uses only the weight of the piss to open, so it closes afterwards and doesn't allow smells back out. Seemed to work just fine.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Our new house is very green. Its straw bale on 3 sides and the south side is cinder block, with multiple fake windows going to black painted cinder blocks. So it is effectively a trom (sp?) wall. Also the floor is Santa Fe bricks with radiant heating. Hope this gives you some ideas.

My wife and I have considered building a straw bale home. I think it is incredibly cool that you actually live in one and I am very impressed! Could you tell us more about it? How do you like it? What sort of problems have you encountered? What are your typical weather extremes and how well does the house do for efficiency?

It's not really appropriate for our project purposes but certainly applies to the discussion generally.
http://www.greenhomebuilding.com/QandA/strawbaleQandA.htm

 

[OmCheeto]

Yeah, I am not saying use just that, but to alleviate the need for city water, you could try it. Or use a waterless toilet. I was at our mall today and saw that they have waterless urinals that use a special valve that uses only the weight of the piss to open, so it closes afterwards and doesn't allow smells back out. Seemed to work just fine.

Well, my calculations were for full independence. So I'd say yours is a good idea. Even if you were to only cut your water use in half, that's a lot of cubic feet of water that are not being pissed away.

 

[binzing]

Ivan- The house is great! So far the extremes have been from around -10 F to well over 100 during the summer, and as designed it is cooler in summer and warmer in winter. The solar (basically a trom) wall is great and can heat the place really well on sunny but cold days. We've had probably less than 15 maybe even less than 10 fires the whole winter. Main problems, I think infloor radiant heat is slightly overrated, or at least ours sort of is, but we haven't really cranked it up (no need). Might just be due to the type of brick. Umm, I've noticed a fair amount of bugs (mainly small flies, beetles, and spiders) that I think may be due to the cracks between the bricks in the floor, but then again this is our first year, we haven't bug bombed it and the previous owner was quite "green" and slightly insane, so yeah. But all in all, its really a great house. If you have more specific questions, feel free to PM me or ask me in this thread.
OmCheeto- "that's a lot of cubic feet of water that are not being pissed away." Ha ha, that's good ( I know it was prolly unintentional), but yeah saving where ever you can really helps. Its dependant upon the area you live in, and each area will have different green advantages and you just need to take advantage of them.

 

[lisab]

Ivan - whatever you come up with, be sure that it is very easy to install or build. I work in the wood products industry and we see new products all the time that are fantastic in the lab. But if they aren't installed just right, they fail in the field.

Many times the laborers who work construction don't speak English. Also the turnover in construction is very high, so they might not have much experience.

 

[taylaron]

I don't see any green homes!

correct me if I am wrong but in general, after people get their education, spouse, and all that jazz they start driving around and look for a house that has a for sale sign. (assuming you don't have the money and or time to hire an architect) you find the one you like that is a bang for the buck that you can find and you buy it.
for the majority of the people who can't afford the time or money to design and build their own house, they find a pre-made house and purchase it without any of the hasssles that designing and building comes with.
THE PEOPLE THAT NEED TO BE GREEN ARE THE CONTRACTORS!
**the contractors need to design and build the houses while implementing new and old green technology. i do admit it will cost more but it is an issue of getting people to realize the money they will save. and take the risk of buying the house and prey that you get your money back.. (extra you paid)

so, the question is: why aren't the contractors implementing this great technology?? there is obviously a need for it.
the options are endless here folks; and from my point of view it is in the act of doing many many small green things (collecting rain water, turn off a fan when leaving the room, that kind of thing) that come together and define your big savings. there are a few utilities that can alone save you some bucks in the long run but they will probably look a bit odd (by today's standards)

i talked to a guy who used to sell "green" heating and cooling systems for houses back when the government had those awesome tax return programs for having a green home. he says that you need to KISS it. keep it simple stupid. you can build this real elaborate complex system that will heat or cool your house; but it will only work for a couple years. a quality system needs no short-term maintenance and shouldest be something you need to be worried about whither it will work or not.
he strongly emphasized on having heating panels on your roof (would look like a skylight) but this is where the sun hits a black panel and below it is a white panel (to reflect the radiant heat from the black panel) and in between these panels is a heating system (kind of like a maze or the coils out of a refrigerators. maximize the length that your water or air needs to pass through to heat it.
another is having a sky-light that is covered with reflective material (like tinfoil) and inside are 2-3 black tubes that contain water that are incubated in the sun light and will reach very hot temperatures that you can use for your appliances.
**but all these things need to be kept in mind when designing your house...
RIGHT?! this is an essential if your really going for the whole green concept. it simply wouldn't be cost-effective to tear up your roof, insert some panels and wind turbines and hope for the best. it needs to be done in the designing and construction phase of development. not after.

--if set up correctly, these devices could work for both air and water--

some input on these utilities would be great.

 

[taylaron]

storage baby...storage...

And, if your going to have a sort of heating and cooling system, and or an electric generator (wind or solar, or hydro) you need a good way tostore all this energy you've captured. whither it is through a lot of insulated containers (storing water) or some real nice deep cycle NiCad. this guy says NiCad batteries work so nicely that its the kind of thing you and down generation to generation (*chuckle chuckle*)
insulating your house is a major priority. on average your largest energy bill for your house is in heating and cooling your home. insulation and ventilation can help you out there. a lot.

KISS IT PEOPLE!

some quotes to think about :
"Do you want it done right or do you want to be successful?
-a higher standard of living comes at the price of using more energy...-

 

[Evo]

I suppose during the rainy seasons you could get by with a couple of barrels and cut your water bill to zero.

The water company charges you a flat fee which includes a certain number of gallons of water. You pay for the water whether you use it or not. If you exceed your pre-paid amount, then you pay for the overage. Most months I used less than the amount already included in the base fee, so I was paying for water I wasn't using.

 

[turbo]

The water company charges you a flat fee which includes a certain number of gallons of water. You pay for the water whether you use it or not. If you exceed your pre-paid amount, then you pay for the overage. Most months I used less than the amount already included in the base fee, so I was paying for water I wasn't using.

When I lived in Bangor, the sewer bill was based on the water bill. Regardless if you were watering a lawn, gardening, washing your vehicles, they charged you for every metered gallon as if it all went down the drain and had to be treated at the sewage plant. That was great for apartment dwellers with no outside water usage, but unfair to lots of other folks.

 

[Evo]

When I lived in Bangor, the sewer bill was based on the water bill. Regardless if you were watering a lawn, gardening, washing your vehicles, they charged you for every metered gallon as if it all went down the drain and had to be treated at the sewage plant. That was great for apartment dwellers with no outside water usage, but unfair to lots of other folks.

Yep, same where I lived.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Regarding the notion of contractors and installation, we are talking about pre-fab homes [a new variety of them], so that doesn't really apply. The people who construct these on-site are specially trained.

 

[taylaron]

Ivan, but would you not agree that these pre-fab homes must be built with these AE designs in it?

the architects that design these homes must do the same whither they are pre-built or not. correct?

 

[Evo]

Ivan, but would you not agree that these pre-fab homes must be built with these AE designs in it?

the architects that design these homes must do the same whither they are pre-built or not. correct?

All a builder needs to do is pass code. It is up to the homeowner to decide what, if any, improvements they make. Homes are expensive enough without adding things that make them more expensive. Some people choose not to run air conditioning. Some people eat out all of the time, so don't cook. Adding things that would be of no benefit to the homeowner based on their lifestyle would just add unnecessary expense.

One of the smartest things to do would be to use concrete for walls, this is becoming more popular in the US, but it is widespread in countries like France and Italy.

 

[taylaron]

im no expert on insulation here; but i know concrete is heavy and expensive and it is only as strong as the stuff you put in the initial mix (normally small rocks)

you are absolutely correct evo, in that contractors need to pass a code; and that's all the must do. no going beyond that line because it costs extra money for them and the buyer.

I respect your opinion evo, but i believe that the majority of people are more willing to pay the electric bill than to "just shut off the AC (or furnace)" we live in a desert where it is very hot in the summer 105+ and cold in the winter 20-30. most people around here are used to the comfort of a heated/cooled room. that option to just shut it off is very dependent on your geological location.

so why not change the housing code? -make the contractor implement this technology. yes it will raise the cost of your house but think about how much money you're saving. THINK ABOUT HOW MUCH MONEY YOU ARE SAVING!
NEVER FORGET THAT. people just need to step back and look at how much energy they are wasting daily.
i think that is something our modern world lacks

 

[russ_watters]

THE PEOPLE THAT NEED TO BE GREEN ARE THE CONTRACTORS!
**the contractors need to design and build the houses while implementing new and old green technology.

Developers, actually, but I get your point.

I work for an HVAC engineering firm and one of our major clients a year ago was Toll Brothers. Toll Brothers essentially custom-builds most of their homes for the people they sell them to (and, I think, most developers try to line-up buyers before they break ground). They offer a list - menu-style - of options you can add to your house. They include things like higher efficiency HVAC, radiant heat in the bathroom (both a comfort and efficiency enhancement), higher quality windows, etc. People almost never select these options.

So the level of control that you imply really isn't there. It still comes down to supply and demand and people are not willing to spend a couple of extra percent to have a more efficient house.

The real problem is that people are not forward thinking. They are not willing to pay extra even with the prospect of a short energy/money savings payback.

 

[russ_watters]

you are absolutely correct evo, in that contractors need to pass a code; and that's all the must do. no going beyond that line because it costs extra money for them and the buyer.

so why not change the housing code?

Recently, the minimum residential a/c efficiency was changed from 10 to 13 SEER. You don't have to know what "SEER" is - 13 is 30% more efficient than 10. For vendors, mplimenting this was as easy as re-labeling equipment. Thermodynamically, it just means slightly larger heat exchangers. The increase in the cost of a ~$5,000 air conditioner is perhaps $500 and the annual energy savings is perhaps $250. With a 2 year payback, it would be stupid not to use the higher efficiency unit. Still, the A/C manufacturers sued in protest (why, I don't know - it doesn't hurt them). At the same time, most offer units up to 20 SEER! Why not make the minimum 16?

The point is, yes, regulation can do a lot to help this problem. Though I'm conservative, I'm generally in favor of obvious/sensible regulation such as this.

 

[Evo]

]im no expert on insulation here; but i know concrete is heavy and expensive and it is only as strong as the stuff you put in the initial mix (normally small rocks)

If you are interested in energy efficient housing with very little repairs, fireproof, etc... I suggest you brush up http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/realestate/2003768288_concretehomes01.html

 

[taylaron]

haha, after reading that article and learning that it only costs 4-8 % more on average to build a house out of concrete than wood (which is great for the environment for obvious reasons). hah, i like these concrete houses. i admit i haven't been exposed to them until now; and they seem pretty Eco-friendly and pretty effective.

Russ, its interesting to hear that it costs less to keep your house cool than it does to heat it. isn't it the amount of mass that you're effecting define how much energy you use? it also sounds like the buyer has more options than i thought they had from the sounds of it. which is a good thing of course.
so i suppose you need both the developers and the buyers to be 'green' if a eco-friendly house is to be built and kept working. which completely makes sense.

who would you look towards if you wanted to rase the requirements for housing development? to actually change the code requirements?

 

[bassplayer142]

I believe that if people want to live more green and really stay true to that statement then they have to make a lot of changes. Changes in life style and habitat including many sacrifices. Less energy wasting and more sacrifice. Houses build underground and larger buildings that conserve space and heat would help.

 

[taylaron]

personally, I am all for living in a subterrenian home. of course most of the living space would be below ground but the living room would be above ground. ooooh i have plans...
there are many downsides of living underground (along with many good things); but there is no real sunlight (without sun lights) so you have to buy those "happy lights" that provide some special spectrum that regular bulbs do get. apparently its bad for your health if you don't use them underground.
i asked myself one day: 'why don't we live underground opposed to above ground any ways...?" i came up with the problem of supporting all the weight above you which includes the extra Earth and or complexes above you. ventilation is a big concern because cave-ins are a real factor. of course there are other factors as well. perhaps someone could chip in.

there are some unrealistic fantasies such as moving the whole world underground and employing subway systems as the main transportation. all the surface Earth would be torn up and recycled; trees would be planted,,,,,,wilderness re-established and that would (help?) solve the CO2 emissions problem. kind of make all things better. but that is an extreme that comes at the cost of unifying the people of Earth and making many sacrifices (among many others). you could fill a whole bunch of threads with this stuff so i won't get too carried away.about concrete insulation; doesn't the fact that you're using a solid to insulate something kind of pointless. because perfect insulators are vacuums. air has less mass than concrete per unit of volume. heat can't be transferred in a vacuum (excluding radiant heat)
my point is; wouldn't you want to fill your areas that need insulation with material that has a low heat-transfer ratio? concrete is a solid and will heat up given enough energy.
or is the amount of sheer mass why it is a good insulator? its certainly a good way to store garbage in(recycling).

regarding PV cells, wouldn't you agree that the highest recorded efficiency rate of PV cells is 6.4 percent. that's incredibly inefficient compared to even 50%. if we're not getting the results we're looking for, don't you think we should go a different direction? (considering how long we've been on this one.) *oh boy! i increased efficiency by 0.2%!.. come on guys.

 

[russ_watters]

Russ, its interesting to hear that it costs less to keep your house cool than it does to heat it. isn't it the amount of mass that you're effecting define how much energy you use? it also sounds like the buyer has more options than i thought they had from the sounds of it. which is a good thing of course.

No, it's all about heat transfer. Besides the sun (which is a similar effect to if it were 10 degrees warmer outside), what makes a house hot or cold is the temperature difference between inside and out. Where I live, it can be as hot as 95 or as cold as 10. If room temp is 75 in summer and 70 in winter, the delta-T is up to 70-10=60 degrees in winter and (95+10)-75=30 in summer. So that's twice as much heat transfer.

Also, at night in the summer, you don't need much AC (the temp still drops to the 70s) but in winter, you need heat 24/7, since it rarely gets above 45 in my area.

For someone who lives in Florida, AC is the bigger issue. There is also the caveat that the way heaters and air conditioners do their thing is fundamentally different (except in the case of a heat pump).

who would you look towards if you wanted to rase the requirements for housing development? to actually change the code requirements?

Congress.

 

[taylaron]

great..
good luck with congress kids...

 

[mheslep]

...
regarding PV cells, wouldn't you agree that the highest recorded efficiency rate of PV cells is 6.4 percent. that's incredibly inefficient compared to even 50%. if we're not getting the results we're looking for, don't you think we should go a different direction? (considering how long we've been on this one.) *oh boy! i increased efficiency by 0.2%!.. come on guys.

Best PV technology called 'multi unction' is 40.7% efficient as of 2007, very expensive. Used in the Mars Rovers.
Page 14-15:
http://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy07osti/42276.pdf

~21% efficient for the best commercially available PV cells

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Best PV technology called 'multi unction' is 40.7% efficient as of 2007, very expensive. Used in the Mars Rovers.
Page 14-15:
http://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy07osti/42276.pdf

~21% efficient for the best commercially available PV cells

"Very expensive" is an understatement. What was the cost of the solar cells used on the Mars rovers, per square meter?

 

[taylaron]

Best PV technology called 'multi unction' is 40.7% efficient as of 2007, very expensive. Used in the Mars Rovers.
Page 14-15:
http://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy07osti/42276.pdf

~21% efficient for the best commercially available PV cells

oh, i must have been talking about plastic pv cells. i frequently get news on them.
but still, we've got a price problem on the commercial end. what spectrum does the 40% efficient version absorb? i know most of the solar energy is in the infra red spectrum. compared to the amount of visible light.

40% currently possible
20% mildly affordable

dont you think its worth trying a different direction/ approach to this technology? or is it simply not that simple?

 

[mheslep]

"Very expensive" is an understatement. What was the cost of the solar cells used on the Mars rovers, per square meter?

$ millions I read, can't find the source.

 

[taylaron]

subterranean homes help

I'm doing a subterranean theme for a 'green' contest and I'm trying to come up with the pros and cons of living underground; here is what i have so far:

PROS

• earth/ soil is a good insulator
• more surface area above ground for farming
• low noise levels- no need to drown out your daughters stereo.
• not much of a need to heat in the winter (if you're deep enough)
• want a bigger house? dig deeper!
• somewhat resistant to natural disasters (for those tornado victims...)

CONS

• Structural support
• ventilation
• emergency exit/ cave-in
• excavating effectively
• lighting

remember, many of these cons are existent in conventional above-ground style homes.

regarding the excavation problem; I have come up with the following solution(s)
1. suck the Earth out with a giant robotic vacuum and deposit soil above ground for farming. (although it uses an enormous amount of energy...probably not practical)
2. any ideas? -(I try not to think about 'if its possible, its been done' saying)

if anyone can provide some perspective or their opinion; it would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks

 

[JasonRox]

Just for everyone's info.

Before suggesting and unique idea you may have, you should do a patent search and if that's successful, file a provisional patent application BEFORE posting here. Provisional patents are cheap and do NOT require lawyers to fill out. If you want more information on where to go after doing that, let me know (I don't need to know the idea). I can't help you fully, but I do believe you should keep it protected.

After you filed a provisional application (less than $200), you can share your idea and know it's protected.

 

[taylaron]

Just for everyone's info.

Before suggesting and unique idea you may have, you should do a patent search and if that's successful, file a provisional patent application BEFORE posting here. Provisional patents are cheap and do NOT require lawyers to fill out. If you want more information on where to go after doing that, let me know (I don't need to know the idea). I can't help you fully, but I do believe you should keep it protected.

After you filed a provisional application (less than $200), you can share your idea and know it's protected.

Ideas are not protected; it is those who want to exploit copywrited ideas to make a profit that are illegal.
to my understanding.