How can entropy increase in a deterministic universe

In summary, the conversation discusses the concept of a deterministic universe, where the laws of classical physics apply and randomness is not present. However, due to the coarse-grained nature of our understanding of the universe, there is an appearance of randomness and unpredictability. This is due to the uncertainty of knowing the exact location and state of each particle, leading to an increase in entropy over time. The idea of macroscopic state variables also plays a role in explaining this increase in entropy, as they can only describe a range of possible microscopic states rather than a single one.
  • #36
stevendaryl said:
But I wasn't talking about time, I was talking about uncertainty. If all you know is that you're in some blue state, then there is a 1/9900 chance that you're in any particular blue state. That's subjective probability.

Being a Bayesian by preference, I approve of subjective probability.

I just meant that it is improbable (using a subjective notion of probability) that the next state will be lower entropy, if all we know about the current state is that it is a blue state. The statement about the fraction of time spent in blue versus yellow states may also be true, but we would have to make more complicated assumptions about the nature of the transition relation to make that conclusion.

In order to make statement about the subjective probability that a system makes a transition from one color state to another color at randomly selected time I think we must stipulate that the system spends an equal time "during" each microstate transistion and "on" each microstate, if we are modeling a "rest" interval between transitions.

What's the realistic situation for a laboratory experiment? I can conceive of preparing a system so it has a definite state and continuously measuring its state at evenly spaced discrete intervals over a 1 hr time interval. That would allow us to say what fraction "of the time" the system made transitions of a certain type ( yellow to blue etc).

I'm assuming that the color is a macroscopically observable property of the state. The point of using an example where the two colors corresponded to different numbers of states is just that otherwise, the entropy would always be constant. Entropy is only a useful concept when it differs from state to state.
That's a very important observation!
I'm not sure what you mean by "sub-microstate". Do you mean that the microstate itself may actually be a macrostate, with even more microscopic details?

Yes.

My general line of thinking is this: When the physical state of a system is described by a vector of values ##(x_1,x_2,x_3,...x_n)## where each ##x_i## may take values in a continuous range of real numbers, then approximating the vector as a discrete microstate presumably involves defining how a set of these vectors is to be regarded as the same microstate. For example, if we want microstates to be "boxes" we could define a microstate ##m_k## to be the set ##(x_1,x_2,x_3,...,x_n): a_{k1} < x_1 \le b_{k1}, a_{k2} < x_2 \le b_{k2}, ... ,a_{kn} < x_n \le b_{kn} ##.

If we wish to make direction connection between "fraction of the number of states that are so-and-do" and "fraction of the time the system is in a state that is so-and-do" then we cannot pick the boundaries ##a_{k_1},a_{k2},...,b_{k1},b_{k2},...,b_{kn} ## arbitrarily. We need to pick them so that the dynamical law that governs the system's trajectory through the states ##(x_1,x_2,...,x_n)## implies that the system spends approximately the same time in each microstate ##m_k##.
 
<h2>1. How is entropy defined in a deterministic universe?</h2><p>In a deterministic universe, entropy is defined as the measure of the disorder or randomness within a closed system. It is a quantitative measure of the number of possible microstates that a system can have, given its macroscopic properties.</p><h2>2. Why does entropy increase in a deterministic universe?</h2><p>Entropy increases in a deterministic universe due to the second law of thermodynamics, which states that the total entropy of a closed system will always increase over time. This is because in a closed system, energy will naturally disperse and become more evenly distributed, leading to an increase in disorder and entropy.</p><h2>3. Can entropy ever decrease in a deterministic universe?</h2><p>In a deterministic universe, entropy can technically decrease in a local system, but it will always increase in the overall closed system. This is because energy can be transferred or transformed within a local system, leading to a decrease in entropy, but the total entropy of the closed system will always increase.</p><h2>4. How does entropy relate to the arrow of time?</h2><p>The increase of entropy in a deterministic universe is closely related to the concept of the arrow of time, which refers to the unidirectional flow of time from the past to the future. The second law of thermodynamics and the increase of entropy explain why we perceive time as moving in one direction and not the other.</p><h2>5. What are the implications of entropy increasing in a deterministic universe?</h2><p>The increase of entropy in a deterministic universe has several implications, including the inevitability of the eventual heat death of the universe, the limitations on perpetual motion machines, and the irreversibility of certain processes. It also plays a crucial role in fields such as thermodynamics, cosmology, and information theory.</p>

Related to How can entropy increase in a deterministic universe

1. How is entropy defined in a deterministic universe?

In a deterministic universe, entropy is defined as the measure of the disorder or randomness within a closed system. It is a quantitative measure of the number of possible microstates that a system can have, given its macroscopic properties.

2. Why does entropy increase in a deterministic universe?

Entropy increases in a deterministic universe due to the second law of thermodynamics, which states that the total entropy of a closed system will always increase over time. This is because in a closed system, energy will naturally disperse and become more evenly distributed, leading to an increase in disorder and entropy.

3. Can entropy ever decrease in a deterministic universe?

In a deterministic universe, entropy can technically decrease in a local system, but it will always increase in the overall closed system. This is because energy can be transferred or transformed within a local system, leading to a decrease in entropy, but the total entropy of the closed system will always increase.

4. How does entropy relate to the arrow of time?

The increase of entropy in a deterministic universe is closely related to the concept of the arrow of time, which refers to the unidirectional flow of time from the past to the future. The second law of thermodynamics and the increase of entropy explain why we perceive time as moving in one direction and not the other.

5. What are the implications of entropy increasing in a deterministic universe?

The increase of entropy in a deterministic universe has several implications, including the inevitability of the eventual heat death of the universe, the limitations on perpetual motion machines, and the irreversibility of certain processes. It also plays a crucial role in fields such as thermodynamics, cosmology, and information theory.

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