How Do You Pronounce Sophus Lie?

[zoobyshoe]

Correction. You were the one who said
"... Simply put, if you go around calling him "Einshtine" people are going to think you're affected, odd, or otherwise off."
What do you call that?

I call that a clear indication that you're not pronouncing Einstein the way it is pronounced.

I really don't care what is the "correct" pronounciation "among English speakers". I care about how that person wishes his or name to be pronounced. Period.

Obviously if someone corrects your pronounciation of their name you should respect their wishes, but the wholesale conversion of a name from one language to another is a different situation. A person named Steven will automatically be called Shteven in German speaking countries, and Esteeben in Spanish speaking countries. French speakers might simplify it for themselves by saying "Stefen", perhaps. If Steven visits, say, Venezuela, he will have a hard, unpleasant stay if he spends his time getting bent out of shape by the fact that everyone is pronouncing his name incorrectly.
People's neural wiring for language and pronounciation starts as soon as people start talking to them in the cradle. By the end of grammar school, their range of pronounciation, and the association of that pronounciation with the alphabet of their native language is pretty much set. In almost all cases it then requires deliberate instruction and hundreds of hours of practise to acquire another language. In the vast majority of cases people simply never overcome their native pronounciation to become flawless at pronouncing the new language. Some lucky individuals are especially flexible and can pass themselves off as native speakers of the second language, but they are the minority.

Now, if Einstein's feeling were hurt (which I very much doubt) by the fact of all the native English speakers in the world pronouncing his name "ine-stine" than I'd have to say he was not thinking about it realistically.

I guarrantee you every country in the world is jam-packed with people who are pronouncing the names of foreigners in a manner other than the possessors of those foreign names, themselves, pronounce them. I don't think anyone should lose any sleep over it.

 

[ZapperZ]

I call that a clear indication that you're not pronouncing Einstein the way it is pronounced.
Obviously if someone corrects your pronounciation of their name you should respect their wishes, but the wholesale conversion of a name from one language to another is a different situation. A person named Steven will automatically be called Shteven in German speaking countries, and Esteeben in Spanish speaking countries. French speakers might simplify it for themselves by saying "Stefen", perhaps. If Steven visits, say, Venezuela, he will have a hard, unpleasant stay if he spends his time getting bent out of shape by the fact that everyone is pronouncing his name incorrectly.

Then we're talking about apples and oranges.

I never said everyone should automatically pronounce everything correctly. If you look at the BEGINNING of this thread, I responded to how "Einstein" is supposed to be pronounced based on the original language (German) that the name was given.

You contradicted that and said this is NOT the "correct" pronounciation in English. Fine. It means that, even when told of how it is pronounced in the original language of that name, you and/or someone else, do not wish to change the way you pronounce that name even upon realizing this information. This is the situation that I understood.

Now you may try to justify such things based on the ignorance of the masses and the "common" practices, but the bottom line is, you have bastardized that person's name KNOWINGLY. I couldn't blame others who do not know any better on how a name from a different language is pronouce. We can't all be previledged enough to know many languages or met many people from all over the world to know better. But upon such realization and still be stubborn enough to continue doing that?!

Zz.

 

[Lyuokdea]

And of course this all leads to the quintessential question of scientific research today...

How did Euler pronounce Euclid?

~Lyuokdea

 

[Norman]

In Milwaukee there is a street spelled Vliet, which I would think would be pronounced VLEE-a (where the a is said like the letter not "uh") but all the locals call it VUH-leet... I couldn't figure out where this Vuhleet street was for a couple of months- drove me nutz.

 

[zoobyshoe]

You contradicted that and said this is NOT the "correct" pronounciation in English. Fine. It means that, even when told of how it is pronounced in the original language of that name, you and/or someone else, do not wish to change the way you pronounce that name even upon realizing this information. This is the situation that I understood.
Now you may try to justify such things based on the ignorance of the masses and the "common" practices, but the bottom line is, you have bastardized that person's name KNOWINGLY. I couldn't blame others who do not know any better on how a name from a different language is pronouce. We can't all be previledged enough to know many languages or met many people from all over the world to know better. But upon such realization and still be stubborn enough to continue doing that?!
Zz.

Yes, I can see you're struggling with the larger issues of language here, and they're getting the better of you.

Now, I attended summer school for intensive German classes at Andover when in high school, and followed that up with four years of college German. I've also had four years of French in college, and two years each of Russian and Spanish. My German and Russian accents are, according to native speakers of those languages, excellent. French and Spanish, not as good. The point being I'm conversant with issues of accent and pronounciation.

I have never met a foreigner who could pronounce my last name properly. They trill the r or fail to produce a properly American vowel. Should I accuse them of bastardizing my name?

Steven, whom I mentioned earlier, may pronounce his name perfectly distinctly to all the Venezuelans he meets there, only to find them pronouncing it back to him as "Esteeben." It's the neural wiring. Habits like this go very deep, and there seem to be a lot of people who just can't ever break them. As I mentioned before, Einstein couldn't pronounce English to save his life. He had the same problem adapting to a language foreign to him that most people have. There are no reports of him I'm aware of suddenly losing his thick Swiss German accent when pronouncing American or British names. Nor have I ever heard any reports of any American or British people who knew him complaining: "That damned Einstein! He keeps pronouncing my name with a GERMAN accent. That's NOT the way I want it pronounced!"

The fact that people don't break into a foreign accent when pronouncing foreign names is pretty much understood to be perfectly acceptable. People do their best without inconveniencing themselves overly, and it's understood there is no disrespect intended.

The irony is, that were you able to meet Einstein and tell him of your crusade to get his name pronounced properly, he would reply "Senk you, Tsappah Tsee!"

 

[Ratzinger]

How do you english speaker pronounce Euler?

 

[ZapperZ]

Yes, I can see you're struggling with the larger issues of language here, and they're getting the better of you.
Now, I attended summer school for intensive German classes at Andover when in high school, and followed that up with four years of college German. I've also had four years of French in college, and two years each of Russian and Spanish. My German and Russian accents are, according to native speakers of those languages, excellent. French and Spanish, not as good. The point being I'm conversant with issues of accent and pronounciation.
I have never met a foreigner who could pronounce my last name properly. They trill the r or fail to produce a properly American vowel. Should I accuse them of bastardizing my name?
Steven, whom I mentioned earlier, may pronounce his name perfectly distinctly to all the Venezuelans he meets there, only to find them pronouncing it back to him as "Esteeben." It's the neural wiring. Habits like this go very deep, and there seem to be a lot of people who just can't ever break them. As I mentioned before, Einstein couldn't pronounce English to save his life. He had the same problem adapting to a language foreign to him that most people have. There are no reports of him I'm aware of suddenly losing his thick Swiss German accent when pronouncing American or British names. Nor have I ever heard any reports of any American or British people who knew him complaining: "That damned Einstein! He keeps pronouncing my name with a GERMAN accent. That's NOT the way I want it pronounced!"
The fact that people don't break into a foreign accent when pronouncing foreign names is pretty much understood to be perfectly acceptable. People do their best without inconveniencing themselves overly, and it's understood there is no disrespect intended.
The irony is, that were you able to meet Einstein and tell him of your crusade to get his name pronounced properly, he would reply "Senk you, Tsappah Tsee!"

Again, you seem to have not read what I have said earlier. Did you simply ignored me when I said that I may never get the pronouciation right, but I certainly don't want to be THAT far off?

I do not have an "English" name, so you do not have to tell me about my name being bastardized. It happens frequently. However, when someone asks me how it is pronounced, and I tell them, these people make an EFFORT to get right. It doesn't matter if they can pronounce it the way a native speaker can. That isn't the point. The point has ALWAYS been TRYING and making an effort to pronounce it as accurately as possible ONCE one knows or is told how it should be pronounced. Your claim that one can never say in in its proper language as a valid excuse to not even do it is, frankly, shocking.

It all boils down to this: if one is told of the proper pronounciation of a name, does one CONTINUES to be stubborn and pronounce it anyway one pleases, or does one make an EFFORT to pronounce it that way? I choose the latter.

Zz.

 

[zoobyshoe]

. The point has ALWAYS been TRYING and making an effort to pronounce it as accurately as possible ONCE one knows or is told how it should be pronounced. Your claim that one can never say in in its proper language as a valid excuse to not even do it is, frankly, shocking.
It all boils down to this: if one is told of the proper pronounciation of a name, does one CONTINUES to be stubborn and pronounce it anyway one pleases, or does one make an EFFORT to pronounce it that way? I choose the latter.
Zz.

And as I said earlier, if someone made a point of asking me to pronounce their name a certain way, I would certainly do it.

The point I'm trying to make is that the English pronounciation isn't wrong, it's just the English pronounciation. No one singled Einstein out, this happens to everyone's name when it crosses international borders. I also know that Van Gogh isn't pronounced "Van Go" in Dutch, but I'm not about to try and pronounce that the way he himself did.

 

[ZapperZ]

The point I'm trying to make is that the English pronounciation isn't wrong, it's just the English pronounciation. No one singled Einstein out, this happens to everyone's name when it crosses international borders. I also know that Van Gogh isn't pronounced "Van Go" in Dutch, but I'm not about to try and pronounce that the way he himself did.

And I will continue to point out that NOWHERE in my posting have I ever insisted on a CORRECT pronounciation or insisting that such-and-such pronouciation is WRONG.

All I said before you jumped all over this was to indicate to another person of ANOTHER pronouciation of the name "Einstein" in Einstein's native language. Your reaction to this appears as IF it is WRONG to point this out to English speakers.

Zz.

 

[Norman]

How do you english speaker pronounce Euler?

I have always heard and said "oiler." But I have heard it pronounced "youler." I think "oiler" is closer to the correct (used very carefully in context of the rest of this thread).
How do you pronouce it Ratzinger?
Cheers,
Ryan

 

[Ratzinger]

It's Oiler. At least in german.

Three weeks ago Lee Smolin gave a public lecture in Berlin that I visited. He pronounced Einstein in the common american way but apologized to the audience for doing so.

What about the french writer Houellebecq, Norman?

 

[Norman]

It's Oiler. At least in german.
Three weeks ago Lee Smolin gave a public lecture in Berlin that I visited. He pronounced Einstein in the common american way but apologized to the audience for doing so.
What about the french writer Houellebecq, Norman?

I wouldn't even begin to guess how to say Houellebecq... I don't think I would even try in public.

 

[Lyuokdea]

You know, the thought suddenly popped into my mind during Orgo today (where everything pops into my mind besides how to do Orgo) that although I pronounce Einstein the common american way, I pronounce Liechtenstein with the faux German "schtein" on the end. I'm not exactly sure what the difference is between the two.

Really, i don't think it matters too much how you say somebodies name, especially somebody no longer among the living. For instance Julius Caesar should be pronounce "Yuel-ius Kai-ser" because there are no soft C's in latin, nor is there even a letter J, it would have been spelled Iulius Caesar. However, people from around the world have dozens of different pronunciations of his name. When you are talking directly to the person, you should always go with the pronunciation they would like, however, otherwise, I don't think it matters very much.

~Lyuokdea

 

[zoobyshoe]

~Lyuokdea

Speaking of which, how does this apparent tongue-twister go?

 

[Andre]

In Milwaukee there is a street spelled Vliet, which I would think would be pronounced VLEE-a (where the a is said like the letter not "uh") but all the locals call it VUH-leet... I couldn't figure out where this Vuhleet street was for a couple of months- drove me nutz.

A Vliet is a wide river mouth in Dutch. For instance the Herring vliet or Haringvliet

Therefore the locals pronounce it the correct way, Vuh-leet

 

[Ratzinger]

Just yesterday I saw lectures that Feynman gave in New Zealand (which are downloadable on the net). When it came to deBroglie he said he never learned to pronounced it right and said the name with three different pronounciations to the audience and then added "anyway, it's french so it's hopless". Everybody laughed.

But my question: how do you say Sophious Lie?