How is heavy ion beam fusion going?

[Kidphysics]

Does anyone know of the drawbacks and future plans anything to look out for?

 

[the_wolfman]

Sadly the US heavy ion fusion program was cut around 2003(?).

There are a handful of experiments that do research relevant to heavy ion fusion, but it is not their main focus.

The national academy of sciences just released "An Assessment of the Prospects for Inertial Confinement Fusion Energy." In it they summarize the current understanding of heavy ion fusion and they also give a road map for possible future R&D.

The report is free to download:
http://www.nap.edu/catalog.php?record_id=18289

 

[Joseph Chikva]

Does anyone know of the drawbacks and future plans anything to look out for?

Ask any of these persons http://hif.lbl.gov/VNLstaff.html
All they are members of Virtual National Laboratory (VNL) sponsored by DOE.

54 persons with annual salary not less than 60'000 USD (up to 100'000 USD/y). So DOE spends only on salary about 3'500'000 USD per year.

Anderson, Oscar
David Baca
Bangerter, Roger
Barnard, John
Beck, Dave
Beggs, Ron
Bieniosek, Frank
Callahan, Debbie
Celata, Christine
Chacon-Golcher, Edwin
Chilton, Sven
Cohen, Ron
Coleman, Josh
Craig, George D-F

Davidson, Ron
Debonnel, Christophe
Eylon, Shumel
Faltens, Andy
Franks, Mark
Friedman, Alex G-I

Ghiorso, Bill
Grote, Dave
Heimbucher, Lynn
Henestroza, Enrique
Hernandez, Sharon
Hipple, Ralph J-L

Jung, Jin-Young
Kaganovich, Igor
Katayanagi, Tak
Kireeff Covo, Michel
Kwan, Joe
Lee, Ed
Lee, Wei-Li
Leitner, Matthaeus
Logan, Grant
Lund, Steve M-O

Meier, Wayne
Molvik, Art
P-R

Perkins, John
Prost, Lionel
Qin, Hong
Reginato, Lou
Ritchie, Gary
Rogers, Craig
Roy, Prabir S-U

Seidl, Peter
Sharp, Bill
Shuman, Derek
Strelo, Bill
Tabak, Max
V-Z

Vay, Jean-Luc
Waldron, Will
Westenskow, Glen
Yu, Simon

 

[Kidphysics]

Joseph, do you know the current status of NDCX-II

 

[Joseph Chikva]

Joseph, do you know the current status of NDCX-II

You can google this information yourself.
Especially for you I found for example the following: http://cerncourier.com/cws/article/cern/40998
NDCX-II has received $11 million of funding from the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act. Construction began in July with completion of the initial 15-cell configuration anticipated in March 2012.

NDCX-II will accelerate a beam of 30–50 nC of Li+ ions to 1.5–4 MeV and compress it into a pulse around 1 ns long. The short, high-current pulse is important for applications requiring efficient stopping of ions for rapid heating of a small amount of matter. As with the existing NDCX-I, the new machine uses neutralized drift compression.

But NDCX-II is only a one little part of very extensive Heavy Ions Fusion program intended only for checking of possibility of focusing of very intense pulse ion beams by background plasma (plasma column) and nothing more.
There in heavy ions fusion is intended to use Cesium ion beams and not Lithium.

 

[the_wolfman]

But NDCX-II is only a one little part of very extensive Heavy Ions Fusion program intended only for checking of possibility of focusing of very intense pulse ion beams by background plasma (plasma column) and nothing more.
There in heavy ions fusion is intended to use Cesium ion beams and not Lithium.

There is no extensive heavy ion program in the US. From the national academy report I linked to earlier:

Although the cost reduction program and other parts of the program aimed at fusion
energy were discontinued in 2003, accelerator development was fortunately able to
continue at a modest budget level in support of high-energy-density physics research.
Most recently, Recovery Act Funds have allowed the construction of the NDCX-II
accelerator. NDCX-II incorporates some features of a power plant driver, albeit at
small scale, and so it provides a very good test bed for the validation of theory and
simulation. While NDCX-II is not the ideal first step if inertial fusion energy were the
primary goal instead of high-energy-density physics research, it will help to resolve
some of the critical issues needed to determine heavy-ion fusion’s feasibility

As I stated earlier, the US stopped funding heavy ion fusion driver research in 2003. Also the primary goal of NDCX-II is to support HEDP research NOT Heavy Ion Fusion. Advances made by NDCX-II will benefit heavy ion fusion, but it it not its intended goal. And the funding of the construction and operation of NDCX-II should not be taken as a sign that the US funds an extensive heavy ion program.

I know that there is a collaboration between Russia and Germany to develop Ion Based ICF. I really can't comment on how extensive it is. I think Japan also does some ion based research at the university level, but nothing large scale.

Ask any of these persons http://hif.lbl.gov/VNLstaff.html
All they are members of Virtual National Laboratory (VNL) sponsored by DOE.

54 persons with annual salary not less than 60'000 USD (up to 100'000 USD/y). So DOE spends only on salary about 3'500'000 USD per year.

This is a horrible way to estimate the size of any research program. There is no way of knowing how up-to-date this list is. Most of the website was last updated in 2002 (prior to the cancellation of the heavy ion driver program). Also many people on this list probably only do heavy ion research part time. There is no way to know what fraction of their time is spent and paid for doing VNL related research. Finally most laboratories and universities add a surcharge onto grants that sometimes amounts to ~200% of the scientist's salary.


I'm not trying to be mean. One of the realities of fusion research is that there are a lot of innovative promising ideas, like heavy ion ICF, that don't get significant funding. If you're interested in a career in fusion research, this is a harsh reality that you have to accept. As a graduate student studying magnetic fusion, I know a number of people who have been turned off by this, and they ended up pursuing other things. If you're are at all interested in ICF I strongly encourage you to skim the academy report I linked to above. It gives an honest and detailed assessment of ICF, both laser driven and ion driven. It talks about NCDX-II and VNL, among other things. It is very up-to-date (it was published this year) and many of the authors of the report are leading experts in ICF.

 

[Joseph Chikva]

As I stated earlier, the US stopped funding heavy ion fusion driver research in 2003. Also the primary goal of NDCX-II is to support HEDP research NOT Heavy Ion Fusion.

Strange statement. As if to use Google with key words “Heavy Ions Fusion DOE” one of the first links you will get is: http://www.ornl.gov/info/news/pulse/no368/feature.sht dated at July 30, 2012.

A three-lab “virtual laboratory” to study heavy-ion fusion
DOE’s Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory is home to the second-generation Neutralized Drift Compression Experiment,

NDCX-II, designed and built by the Heavy Ion Fusion Science Virtual National Laboratory (HIFS VNL)

, whose member institutions also include DOE’s Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory and Princeton Plasma Physics Laboratory.[/QOUTE]
So, as you can see, the program was not canceled but only is weakly started yet.
Why weakly? We can discuss it. But that is the fact. Despite another fact of last update of Virtual National Laboratory's site. Never interested in that but try to search also with the help of key words "nonneutral plasma". You would find a lot of papers dated in 2012, 2011, 2010 and so on (so later than "cancelation date of project) written by the members of Virtual Lab
I am familiar with one person who is very qualified physicist born in Russia. So, I have some insider information too (only about status of program).

See also the: http://fsc.lle.rochester.edu/pub/HEDLP/presentations/Barnard.pdf dated at 2008 (also later than 2003)

I have never heard about Russian-Germany collaboration in this branch. Heard about Light Ions Fusion program and some hardware built in Karlsruhe University under leadership of Dr. Bluhm.

 

[the_wolfman]

Strange statement.

The statement is based off of the quote I posted from "An Assessment of the Prospects for Inertial Fusion Energy" by the National Academe Press. The report is a peer reviewed document written and reviewed by a number of scientist involved in inertial confinement fusion.

Also when they make comments such as:

The U.S. Department of Energy supported the development of heavy-ion accelerators
for fusion power production until 2003

line 2422 on 2-37 I tend to believe them.

 

[Joseph Chikva]

The report is a peer reviewed document written and reviewed by a number of scientist involved in inertial confinement fusion.

Also when they make comments such as:
line 2422 on 2-37 I tend to believe them.

How they are involved if after mentioned by them date 2003 another scientists working in three largest NATIONAL Labs say that they still working?
Not a fact that those 54 people are paid for working in Inertial Confinement? Yes, 54 is not a big number, and yes, 11 millions not a big money for a program which should be even more expensive that TOKAMAK. But nevertheless they are working.
See for example here: http://nonneutral.pppl.gov/ what these people of Prienston are doing.
Below are references of their papers written only in 2012 and so after mentioned by you "cancellation date" of program:

2012
• “Summary of Progress in U.S. Heavy Ion Fusion Science Research,” J. W. Kwan, J. J. Barnard, R. H. Cohen, R. C. Davidson, P. C. Efthimion, A. Friedman, E. P. Gilson, L. R. Grisham, D. P. Grote, E. Henestroza, I. D. Kaganovich, S. M. Lidia, B. G. Logan, S. M. Lund, R. M. More, P. Ni, L. J. Perkins, H. Qin, P. K. Roy, P. A. Seidl, W. M. Sharp, E. A. Startsev, M. R. Terry, and W. L. Waldron, Nuclear Fusion, submitted for publication (2012).
• “Plasma Sources for NDCX-II and Heavy Ion Drivers,” E. P. Gilson, R. C. Davidson, P. C. Efthimion, I. D. Kaganovich, J. W. Kwan, S. M. Lidia, P. A. Ni, P. K. Roy, P. A. Seidl, W. L. Waldron, J. J. Barnard and A. Friedman, Nuclear Instruments and Methods in Physics Research A, submitted for publication (2012).
• “Studies of Electrical Breakdown Processes across Vacuum Gaps,” L. R. Grisham, A. Von Halle, A. F. Carpe, Guy Rossi, K. R. Gilton, E. D. McBride, E. P. Gilson, A. Stepanov and T. N. Stevenson, Nuclear Instruments and Methods in Physics Research A, submitted for publication (2012).
• “Dynamic Stabilization of the Ablative Rayleigh-Taylor Instability for Heavy Ion Fusion,” H. Qin, R. C. Davidson and B. G. Logan, Nuclear Instruments and Methods in Physics Research A, submitted for publication (2012).
• “Transverse Focusing of Intense Charged Particle Beams with Chromatic Effects for Heavy Ion Fusion,” J. M. Mitrani, I. D. Kaganovich and R. C. Davidson, Nuclear Instruments and Methods in Physics Research A, submitted for publication (2012).
• “Effects of Beam-Plasma Instabilities on Neutralized Propagation of Intense Ion Beams in Background Plasma,” E. A. Startsev, I. D. Kaganovich and R. C. Davidson, Nuclear Instruments and Methods in Physics Research A, submitted for publication (2012).
• “Enhanced Collective Focusing of Intense Neutralized Ion Beam Pulses in the Presence of Weak Solemoidal Magnetic Fields,” M. A. Dorf, R. C. Davidson, I. D. Kaganovich and E. A. Startsev, Physics of Plasmas 19, 056704 (2012).
• “Effects of Errors in Velocity Tilt on Maximum Longitudinal Compression during Neutralized Drift Compression of Intense Beam Pulses – Part I: General Description” I. D. Kaganovich, S. Massidda, E. A. Startsev, R. C. Davidson, J. Luc – Vay, and A. Friedman, Nuclear Instruments and Methods in Physics Research 678, 48 (2012).
• “Effects of Errors in Velocity Tilt on Maximum Longitudinal Compression during Neutralized Drift Compression of Intense Beam Pulses – Part II: General Analysis of the Experimental Data of the Neutralized Drift Compression Experiment - I (NDCX - I),” I. D. Kaganovich, S. Massidda, E. A. Startsev, R. C. Davidson, S. M. Lidia, P. A. Seidl, and A. Friedman, Nuclear Instruments and Methods in Physics Research 678, 39 (2012).
•“Thermodynamic Bounds on Nonlinear Electrostatic Perturbations in Intense Charged Particle Beams,” N. C. Logan and R. C. Davidson, Physcs of Plasmas 19, 073113 (2012).
•“A New Class of Generalized Kapchinskij-Vladimirskij Distribution and Associated Envelope Equations for High-Intensity Charged Particle Beams,” H. Qin and R. C. Davidson, submitted for publication (2012).
• “Plasma Source Development for the NDCX-I and NDCX-II Neutralized Drift Compression Experiments,” E. P. Gilson, R. C. Davidson, P. C. Efthimion, and I. D. Kaganovich, Laser and Particle Beams 30, 435 (2012).


Not impressive?

 

[the_wolfman]

I agree that there is some HIF research going on. In fact if you look at my original post I acknowledge that.

There are a handful of experiments that do research relevant to heavy ion fusion

I disagree with your statement:

NDCX-II is only a one little part of very extensive Heavy Ions Fusion program

There is not an extensive Heavy Ion Fusion program in the USA. This is the main point I am trying to emphasis.

I admit I may have been a little misleading it what I meant earlier, so let me explain.

The way fusion and other scientific funding work in the USA, is that the government agency (in this case the DOE) that funds the research identifies certain "research thrusts" or objectives. In order for a research proposal to get funding, you have to directly tie your research to one of the main thrusts,

Now my understanding is that up until 2003. Heavy Ion fusion was its own unique thrust. This means that in the DOE budget there was a separate pool of funds allocated to do HIF research. And if you wanted to do HIF research, then your proposal would simply have to demonstrate how your research would advance that field.

In 2003 things changed, and there is no longer a separate research thrust for HIF. In other words developing HIF is not currently a DOE objective.

If this is true, then how are people still doing HIF related research.
There are two ways (that I know of) that this happens.

First there are some usually some funds in the DOE budget to develop alternative or innovative concepts. The pools of money for this projects are significantly smaller than the main thrusts. But it is a source that HIF researchers can tap.

Secondly, there is a new thrust within the DOE office of fusion energy sciences to study high energy density physics. This branch of science has relevance to ICF, but also to astrophysical phenomena such as the physics of the interiors of planets. In order to do HEDP research you have to compress a target much like ICF does. And as I understand it, ion drivers allow you to do a different sort of experiment than laser drivers. Therefore advances in heavy ion drivers, enable HEDP research. And it is my understanding that it is through HEDP that most "HIF" related research gets funded.

For instance the VNL that you keep on mentioning is funded by HEPD.

The Heavy Ion Fusion Science Virtual National Laboratory is a collaboration of LLNL, Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory, and the Princeton Plasma Physics Laboratory. The LLNL group is part of the Fusion Energy Sciences Program within the Physics Division of the Physical and Life Sciences Directorate. Our principal funding is from the DOE Office of Fusion Energy Sciences (OFES) program in High Energy Density Laboratory Plasmas (HEDLP) and related topics. Most of the group members maintain their principal offices at LBNL.

https://www-pls.llnl.gov/?url=about_pls-physics_division-fesp-hedlp_heavy_ion_fusion

I also will reiterate a part of my quote from the national academy report:

While NDCX-II is not the ideal first step if inertial fusion energy were the
primary goal instead of high-energy-density physics research

Which implies that NDCX-II was designed to do HEDP research. It is still useful for HIF research.

Also from slide two of the Barnard pdf you linked to:

Recent history:emphasis on warm dense matter (WDM) physics
required innovations (applicable to HIF, too!)

Much of the recent work on heavy ion drivers have been with an emphasis to enable HEPD research. WDM is a branch of HEPD.

Also I will point out that on the 12 papers you cited, most of the papers focus on improving the ion driver performance. Which has the dual purpose of supporting HEPD research and HIF. The first one is HIF specific. But Grisham et. al. actually focus of electrical breakdown for magnetic confinement experiments. The are a few that mention specifically mention HIF, like the one on RT stability, that probably also have ties to HEDP.

And in truth 11 papers a year is not indicative of an extensive program.

 

[Joseph Chikva]

11 papers a year only one small Prienston team.
Program is extensive by volume of works have to be done for reaching desired goal – making of commercially successful HIF. I said too that several tens people can not reach that goal as well as money being spending today is not enough for a program that should be even more expensive than TOKAMAK.

DOE or another organization but you was wrong saying “HIF program was canceled in 2003”

And I think that today some reevaluation of priorities is observed.
Because today decision making people have not expectation that at least initially fusion will be competitive vs. fission. And partially they are right: power density – lower, capital cost - at least initially higher. Also nobody including developers sure that technically HIF is feasible. As if this is not so nobody would conduct NDCX-II experiment. So budget cuts have solid background.
And only with this we can explain that nobody today forces fusion researches.

Are you for example sure that after achievement of ignition of ITER (if that will happen) and construction of further DEMO humans will be ready to build commercial reactor based on TOKAMAK principle?
My answer is NO. As nobody necessary for H-mode Neutral Beam Injection is very useful for experiments when it is not a problem if shots are conducted once a week but that is less useful when we need shot after shot. As for each shot wall desorption is need there.
So, new ideas are needed.

 

[kinkmode]

First there are some usually some funds in the DOE budget to develop alternative or innovative concepts. The pools of money for this projects are significantly smaller than the main thrusts. But it is a source that HIF researchers can tap.

As far as I know, little or no HIF research is being funded by the innovative concepts pot of money. At least the pot of money that I am aware of. I think the ICF innovative concepts pot was cut or was restructured 5-6 years ago, but I could be wrong. I do know that the ICF people stopped going to the innovative fusion concepts meetings around that time. In fact, the magnetic confinement innovative concepts funding has also changed priorities to be MUCH more tokamak specific, though many of the existing projects recast/reword their focus to remain 'relevant' to the new focus.

Also, as pointed out, the fusion program was also restructured around that time to make room for HEDP. From the researchers I know who were affected by this are still doing the same research as before. It's just now instead of doing 'FRC research' they are doing 'HEDP research' and they submit their proposals to a different call. They also probably change some of their language in the proposal, but they are nominally doing the same thing. The biggest problem though is the HEDP is kind of withering on the vine...

As far as I know, the Princeton group is still doing some research that is relevant to HIF, though maybe not directly HIF research. This is how it more or less has been since I first went there in 2001. The Paul Trap Simulator Experiment is still there, etc. I had a friend who did his dissertation on HIF - I can ask him to see what the current news is if you'd like.

 

[the_wolfman]

As far as I know, little or no HIF research is being funded by the innovative concepts pot of money. At least the pot of money that I am aware of. I think the ICF innovative concepts pot was cut or was restructured 5-6 years ago, but I could be wrong. I do know that the ICF people stopped going to the innovative fusion concepts meetings around that time. In fact, the magnetic confinement innovative concepts funding has also changed priorities to be MUCH more tokamak specific, though many of the existing projects recast/reword their focus to remain 'relevant' to the new focus.

I think most of the ICC projects were cut around 2010-2011. I didn't mean to imply that HIF was funded by the ICC community (now EPR). As I understand it, the ICF budget has had some funds allocated to develop non-traditional methods of compression and ignition, similar to the ICC program.

I had a friend who did his dissertation on HIF - I can ask him to see what the current news is if you'd like.

I'd be interested in what your friend has to say. I've got a friend at LLNL who does some HIF (via HEDP) research that I've asked too.

 

[kinkmode]

I'd say about half to a third of the ICC projects got cut around 2010ish (LDX, TCSU, MCX) and SSPX around 2008. A few of the ones that did probably needed to go, but there were a couple of undeserved cuts in my mind. There are still quite a number of them operating though, including LTX, HIT-SI, SSX, an FRC project semi-affiliated with U Washington, some stuff at Caltech, the FRC at Princeton, the FRC/MTF project at Los Alamos/Kirtland AFB (subsumed into HEDP), small stellarators (HSX), MST (RFP at Wisconsin), Pegasus (ST at Wisconsin), etc. Some of these projects have moved funding homes over the years, but the research still continues. And while the DOE doesn't fund the following two, Tri-Alpha and General Fusion participate in the community as well. As you can probably guess, I was a member of the community for some time.

Sorry for the misunderstanding about the EPR/ICR funding. I do know that the ICF folks use to go to the ICC/EPR meetings (even though the funding might have been different) but they stopped around 2008. They were researching things like fast ignition.

I wrote my friend. Hopefully he gets back to me in a timely fashion :)

 

[Joseph Chikva]

I think most of the ICC projects were cut around 2010-2011.

So, not in 2003 as you stated earlier?
What cut you talk about if funding in HIF always was extremely small vs. extensive works have to be done? Be noted that HIF program would be much more expensive than even TOKAMAK.
What "innovative concept pot"? Does the word "innovative" not mean "modern", "novel", "new", etc. You can read books written in 70s and 80s. Are ideas sounded 30-40 years ago innovative?
Induction linacs proposed to be used as drivers thought up by many years ago died Nick Christafilos.
Focusing of beams with the help of their propagation through the plasma column is 30-40 years aged proposal.
Hohlaraum design - please show me new ideas.
Etc., etc, etc.
What experiment they actually done is checking feasibility of focusing and control of beams with the help of components of demolished ATA electron accelerator. And being underway theoretical study of various kinds of stream instabilities. They never had a big budget.

 

[Joseph Chikva]

They were researching things like fast ignition.

What is slow in inertial confinement?
May be they are researching some things allowing ignition? :)

 

[kinkmode]

I don't recall what fast ignition exactly was. The last talk I heard on it was 5 years ago. It was something along the lines of decoupling the ignition and compression phases.

https://lasers.llnl.gov/science_technology/fusion_science/fast_ignition.php

 

[Joseph Chikva]

I don't recall what fast ignition exactly was. The last talk I heard on it was 5 years ago. It was something along the lines of decoupling the ignition and compression phases.

https://lasers.llnl.gov/science_technology/fusion_science/fast_ignition.php

Laser ignition failed with NIF (national ignition facility). And all processes in inertial confinement are rather fast. In opposite case "inertial" is impossible.

 

[kinkmode]

I'm not quite sure what the point of your post is. Fast Ignition really is a research idea. If you read the link I posted, you'd see that it is something different from the standard ICF ignition scenarios.

Here's another link: https://www-pls.llnl.gov/?url=about_pls-physics_division-fesp-hedlp_fast_ignition

 

[Joseph Chikva]

Research idea where? In NIF?
NIF closed.

 

[kinkmode]

NIF closed? Once again I'm not quite sure what you are getting at. NIF might be facing a budget cut, but I'm sure the defense related activities of NIF are still being funded. Regardless...

With respect to HIF, apparently I need to eat crow. Here's what my friend wrote: The head of OFES killed the HIF program last month or so. LBNL and LLNL people working in HIF were either laid off or transferred back to LLNL. PPPL people are finding other things to work on now. In his eyes, with experimental program now gone and the elders no longer carrying the torch, no fresh blood will be entering research, so it will go the way of the US mirror program.

That being said, I saw the Senate approved a budget for HEDLP of $15 million, including HIF. So who knows.

 

[Joseph Chikva]

NIF closed? Once again I'm not quite sure what you are getting at. NIF might be facing a budget cut, but I'm sure the defense related activities of NIF are still being funded. Regardless...

With respect to HIF, apparently I need to eat crow. Here's what my friend wrote: The head of OFES killed the HIF program last month or so. LBNL and LLNL people working in HIF were either laid off or transferred back to LLNL. PPPL people are finding other things to work on now. In his eyes, with experimental program now gone and the elders no longer carrying the torch, no fresh blood will be entering research, so it will go the way of the US mirror program.

That being said, I saw the Senate approved a budget for HEDLP of $15 million, including HIF. So who knows.

I am afraid that only Hollywood related activity (Star track in the Darkness) is still actual for NIF. And nothing more. As what they claim on "defense related activity" is modeling of thermonuclear weapon. If so, as far as I understand, no ignition - no possibility of modeling. And ignition failed. That is a fact.

I do not know the last news about HIF. But that is possible too. As focusing is not problem. But very difficult to direct very intense beams (not one) to hit mm sized target. They have conducted one NDCX-II experiment how they can control intense Lithium beam and I could not find any publication of results.

15 million for HIF is laughable money. And even 150 millions.

 

[the_wolfman]

Research idea where? In NIF?
NIF closed.

I am afraid that only Hollywood related activity (Star track in the Darkness) is still actual for NIF. And nothing more. As what they claim on "defense related activity" is modeling of thermonuclear weapon. If so, as far as I understand, no ignition - no possibility of modeling. And ignition failed. That is a fact.

I don't know where you get your "facts" but they are wrong.

When you say NIF is dead, I wonder if you're thinking about NIC (the national ignition campaign). NIC was an experimental campaign on NIF with the purpose of igniting a target. NIC ended last year, and yes it failed to ignite a target.

However, the national ignition facility is still up and running. It is still doing experiments relevant to ICF along with basic science and weapons research.

 

[Joseph Chikva]

When you say NIF is dead, I wonder if you're thinking about NIC (the national ignition campaign). NIC was an experimental campaign on NIF with the purpose of igniting a target. NIC ended last year, and yes it failed to ignite a target.

really?

 

[kinkmode]

All my friends who work on NIF still work on NIF. The facility is still there. Just the 'civilian' ignition campaign is finished.

This is essentially how I understand it from talking to friends and attending various talks. When NIF first came online, the initial run campaign (NIC) was going to be devoted to ignition, fusion energy, and ICF. After that, the bulk of the run time would be going to defense applications/stockpile stewardship. The breakdown I heard was 90/10 for defense/science; I'm sure this is a just a hand waving estimate.

Mind you, its budget is up in the air right now. But I'm sure it will still be funded for NNSA purposes. Whether or not there will ever be another sustained ignition-for-fusion-energy-purposes I don't think has been determined. One of the problems I heard about the initial campaign was that the delay in implementing a target design change was significant. The pipeline for target creation is pretty long, so you can't just make an adjustment to target design and run with that target the next day.

 

[Joseph Chikva]

All my friends who work on NIF...

Mr. kinkmode, without offence, how old are you? How many friend you have? And what percent of your fiend's community work on NIF? May be this is only natural wish of young man to look more significant than he is?

Civilian part closed? Really? And only military part goes on? I am happy.
Have you an idea what is that military part? As I only heard about attempt of simulation of fast processes occurring prior thermonuclear explosion. For the purpose to make existing or future H-warheads more reliable.
The second thought is that beurocrates who once made decision of funding in that "military component" of NIF continue funding for covering their previous mistake. To cover of that "secret" mistake is comparatively easy. Secret, non-disclosure, etc.

 

[kinkmode]

Mr. kinkmode, without offence, how old are you? How many friend you have? And what percent of your fiend's community work on NIF? May be this is only natural wish of young man to look more significant than he is?

Or maybe not. Why would I make stuff up on a forum to impress a bunch of people I don't know?

I have 2 or 3 friends who work on NIF or related things. Another works in the weapons division at LLNL (I have no idea what he works on for obvious reasons), a few more do ICF related things at Sandia, and then a few are at LANL and will probably end up working on something defense related. That doesn't count a number of people I know out at those labs professionally.

It's not that unusual for people in my ex-field. Most of the people from my grad program (a plasma physics/fusion program) end up at one of the weapons labs.

As far as what the defense related activities are at NIF, I don't know much more than what you can find on the web. I would imagine a lot of it is experimental benchmarks of hydro codes.

 

[Joseph Chikva]

I have 2 or 3 friends who work on NIF or related things.

2 OR 3?
Difficult to count?
You said that NIF people are working on some things like e.g. "fast ignition".
Are you sure that they are still working on that since September of last year? I am sure that not. Regardless to what your friends told you.
And I am stating that at this moment National Ignition Facility is a facility with no hope to achieve ignition ever.
Again, without offence. But your words are a little bit unreal.
Sorry.

 

[kinkmode]

Haha ok. Like I said, I have no need to impress you or anyone else here. If you'd rather believe I'm lying, go for it.

No, my friends didn't tell me NIF was working on fast ignition in the last year. I was speaking from memory from a conference I attended in 2008. I know work on fast ignition occurred after that time as well, because some of the people listed on second link I provided above were not working on the project then; they got transitioned over to NIF work after their magnetic fusion project lost funding.

As for counting my friends who work on NIF, some of the may or may not still be on the project. I only see most of them once a year at the yearly DPP conference. You are more than welcome to go to the web page of the program I graduated from. You'll see that about half the people who graduated in the last 8 years or so are at LLNL, Sandia, or LANL. Many of them work in ICF.

That's all I have to say on this matter. Hope someone found the information about heavy ion fusion interesting.

 

[Joseph Chikva]

No, my friends didn't tell me NIF was working on fast ignition in the last year. I was speaking from memory from a conference I attended in 2008.

And that is believable. As last year NIF failed to achieve ignition. And I do not believe that at facility making serious defense program anyone will allow to make movie. But they did that.

But I really believe that you've got good education. As well as other your schoolmates. But this does not mean that NIF at this moment makes something significant.
I also know conferences formats too and one time was invited in DPP annual meeting in 2012 with my fusion idea.
So please do not try to convince me that somewhere something is happening. There, where nothing happens. Only people work until the end of funding.
They had ambitious plans in 2008. Today that does not matter already when we talk in 2013 and know about their failure in 2012.