How is medical physics compared to other fields of physics?

[AryaKimiaghalam]

Hello,
I will start my freshman year in mathematical physics this fall. When I was researching about fields of specialization in physics I came across medical physics. I found that medical physicists are well paid and their job prospect is great! As you probably realized from my major, I'm very interested in mathematics and physics intensive courses and programs. I wanted to ask you guys that how are the math and physics in the medical physics program different than other graduate programs in physics such as condensed matter physics, biophysics ,geophysics, astrophysics or quantum physics? Does studying medical physics take me too much away from the materials I would learn in my undergraduate years (mathematical physics) ? PLEASE share your opinions and experience.

 

[berkeman]

Welcome to the PF.

Here is a recent thread that should help. There is also a link to a good Insights article that should help you.

https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/medical-physics-routes.937668/

 

[AryaKimiaghalam]

Thank you so much.

 

[Choppy]

It's hard to say how different a graduate medical physics program will be from your undergraduate studies, because a lot will depend on the details of both programs. Some medical physics graduate programs can be rather "light" on the physics and math side of things and put more emphasis on the day-to-day clinical kinds of things medical physicists are likely to encounter. Other programs are a more rigorous with the physics and math, still requiring their PhD candidates to complete core graduate physics courses like E&M and quantum, and a comprehensive exam, in addition to their CAMPEP coursework. Similarly, a lot can depend on the specifics of the research projects you get involved in.

 

[AryaKimiaghalam]

Hi,
I was researching about medical physics programs and I found out they learn a lot about imaging technologies and radiation physics. I was wondering how much "pure physics" medical physics programs have? I've heard from people that medical physics is an easy field compared to things like astrophysics or optics or even geophysics. Please help me find the differences of medical physics with other fields of physics and how much "maths and pure physics" does it have compared to other fields?

 

[CrysPhys]

Hi,
I was researching about medical physics programs and I found out they learn a lot about imaging technologies and radiation physics. I was wondering how much "pure physics" medical physics programs have? I've heard from people that medical physics is an easy field compared to things like astrophysics or optics or even geophysics. Please help me find the differences of medical physics with other fields of physics and how much "maths and pure physics" does it have compared to other fields?

What is your concept of "pure physics"?

 

[AryaKimiaghalam]

What is your concept of "pure physics"?

Contents that are directly related to physics like quantum physics, optics, electromagnetism, thermodynamics etc.

 

[Choppy]

Hi,
I was researching about medical physics programs and I found out they learn a lot about imaging technologies and radiation physics. I was wondering how much "pure physics" medical physics programs have?

It's probably best to think of medical physics as a discipline of applied physics. A typical graduate program will include courses like:
- fundamental radiation physics
- medical imaging
- an MRI course (sometimes included in medical imaging, but MRI tends to be it's own animal)
- radiation biology
- health physics and radiation protection
- radiation dosimetry and treatment planning
- laboratory courses in medical imaging, and radiation dosimetry
- nuclear medicine
- anatomy and physiology
- statistics

And as I said, a lot can depend on the program. Some programs will also require PhD candidates to complete certain graduate courses with the physics department. Typically these would include E&M and quantum. Programs will also throw in courses that cover topics like medical devices networks, linear accelerator technology, Monte Carlo and numerical methods, process engineering, etc.

I've heard from people that medical physics is an easy field compared to things like astrophysics or optics or even geophysics. Please help me find the differences of medical physics with other fields of physics and how much "maths and pure physics" does it have compared to other fields?

On the surface of it, it can seem like it is. The majority of math that you do in a radiation dosimetry course, for example, is straight-forward algebra. But I've seen a lot of very smart people fail out of medical physics programs because they believed it was going to be easy.

The math on the imaging side of things can get a lot more complicated. As an example I remember, for one of the imaging projects I had to do, we were given some raw numerical CT data and had to write a program from scratch to reconstruct an image using a filtered back projection approach and then write and apply a number of different filters to apply to the image. As another example, in the radiation dosimetry side of things, you might have to write a basic Monte Carlo program to simulate radiation transport.

And there's also a breadth of material to consider too. Medical physics students tend to take a lot more courses than typical graduate students. In addition to the physics you also have to know the biology, anatomy, technology, etc.

And that's just the course work.

If you want to read about what medical physics research involves check out journals like:
Medical Physics
Physics in Medicine and Biology
Journal of Applied Clinical Medical Physics

And there's more in this Insight's Article

 

[AryaKimiaghalam]

It's probably best to think of medical physics as a discipline of applied physics. A typical graduate program will include courses like:
- fundamental radiation physics
- medical imaging
- an MRI course (sometimes included in medical imaging, but MRI tends to be it's own animal)
- radiation biology
- health physics and radiation protection
- radiation dosimetry and treatment planning
- laboratory courses in medical imaging, and radiation dosimetry
- nuclear medicine
- anatomy and physiology
- statistics

And as I said, a lot can depend on the program. Some programs will also require PhD candidates to complete certain graduate courses with the physics department. Typically these would include E&M and quantum. Programs will also throw in courses that cover topics like medical devices networks, linear accelerator technology, Monte Carlo and numerical methods, process engineering, etc.
On the surface of it, it can seem like it is. The majority of math that you do in a radiation dosimetry course, for example, is straight-forward algebra. But I've seen a lot of very smart people fail out of medical physics programs because they believed it was going to be easy.

The math on the imaging side of things can get a lot more complicated. As an example I remember, for one of the imaging projects I had to do, we were given some raw numerical CT data and had to write a program from scratch to reconstruct an image using a filtered back projection approach and then write and apply a number of different filters to apply to the image. As another example, in the radiation dosimetry side of things, you might have to write a basic Monte Carlo program to simulate radiation transport.

And there's also a breadth of material to consider too. Medical physics students tend to take a lot more courses than typical graduate students. In addition to the physics you also have to know the biology, anatomy, technology, etc.

And that's just the course work.

If you want to read about what medical physics research involves check out journals like:
Medical Physics
Physics in Medicine and Biology
Journal of Applied Clinical Medical Physics

And there's more in this Insight's Article

thank you for the great help
have you majored in medical physics?​

 

[Choppy]

thank you for the great help
have you majored in medical physics?​

I am a medical physicist. I didn't actually specialize in it until I did my PhD.

 

[AryaKimiaghalam]

I am a medical physicist. I didn't actually specialize in it until I did my PhD.

did you study physics prior to your PhD?
can you please tell me how is the work environment of a medical physicist and what daily responsibilities they have?
I'm very interested in imaging physics and optics, I was wondering how their responsibilities differ from clinical medical physicists?
THANK YOU again for the great help​

 

[AryaKimiaghalam]

I read your insight's article. It was great.
I got the answer to my question. THANKS

 

[AryaKimiaghalam]

Hi, I've one more question
on average, how long does it take for someone in Canada to get a Ph.D. in medical physics and be ready to apply for clinical works?
assuming they have a physics background

 

[Choppy]

In Canada most programs admit students to an MSc first. Then you either complete that (about 2 years) or transfer into the PhD (after at least one year, usually more). From there the PhD typically takes 4-6 years, depending on the student, the project, details of the program, etc. If the PhD is an extension of your MSc work it tends to go faster because you have less of a learning curve. In most Canadian programs the students are working too (doing either/both TA or QA work) and/or receive some sort of stipend. I'm not sure US programs often get the same deal. (This is where it really pays to pay attention to what each program offers in terms of support.)

From there you enter a residency for about 2 years. Residents are paid. I think the going median rate is roughly $50k per year, but it can vary (some are in the $80k - $90k ballpark). After that you're eligible for board exams. Once you pass those, you can start working as a qualified medical physicist. Some people go off on a tangent and do post-doctoral research for a couple of years too.

So it's a long road, and there is uncertainty at every step, but that's about the measure of it.

 

[AryaKimiaghalam]

In Canada most programs admit students to an MSc first. Then you either complete that (about 2 years) or transfer into the PhD (after at least one year, usually more). From there the PhD typically takes 4-6 years, depending on the student, the project, details of the program, etc. If the PhD is an extension of your MSc work it tends to go faster because you have less of a learning curve. In most Canadian programs the students are working too (doing either/both TA or QA work) and/or receive some sort of stipend. I'm not sure US programs often get the same deal. (This is where it really pays to pay attention to what each program offers in terms of support.)

From there you enter a residency for about 2 years. Residents are paid. I think the going median rate is roughly $50k per year, but it can vary (some are in the $80k - $90k ballpark). After that you're eligible for board exams. Once you pass those, you can start working as a qualified medical physicist. Some people go off on a tangent and do post-doctoral research for a couple of years too.

So it's a long road, and there is uncertainty at every step, but that's about the measure of it.

So, if somebody gets a Ph.D. in quantum optics and wants to work as a medical physicist, how the process would go for him/her. Is he/she able to get a license in less than 2 years?

 

[Choppy]

So, if somebody gets a Ph.D. in quantum optics and wants to work as a medical physicist, how the process would go for him/her. Is he/she able to get a license in less than 2 years?

There are a handful of programs that offer a post PhD diploma in medical physics. These programs essentially allow the candidate to complete the required coursework in about 8 months to a year without having to do another graduate degree. The downside is that they are usually not supported. Graduates tend to be taken on par with medical physics PhD graduates. You still have to get into a residency afterwards though.

The other option for someone who did a PhD in a different field is to enroll in a medical physics MSc program and finish that in about two years. Some (but not all) of these are financially supported, and usually the candidate gets a medical physics-specific publication or two.

 

[AryaKimiaghalam]

There are a handful of programs that offer a post PhD diploma in medical physics. These programs essentially allow the candidate to complete the required coursework in about 8 months to a year without having to do another graduate degree. The downside is that they are usually not supported. Graduates tend to be taken on par with medical physics PhD graduates. You still have to get into a residency afterwards though.

The other option for someone who did a PhD in a different field is to enroll in a medical physics MSc program and finish that in about two years. Some (but not all) of these are financially supported, and usually the candidate gets a medical physics-specific publication or two.

Thank you it was very helpful.
I'm very interested in optics and radiation physics and I'm struggling to choose a plan to either specialize in medical physics or quantum optics.

 

[AryaKimiaghalam]

Hi,
I have a question related to medical physics and other fields of physics.
So, HOW is medical physics or radiation oncology different from other fields of physics in terms of the level of MATHEMATICS and MODERN PHYSICS used in it?
I know my question sounds repetitive but I'm trying to get a clearer answer.
For example, what is the level of difficulty of the "physics and math" courses taken by a medical physics Ph.D. student compared to let's say a particle physics student?
I appreciate your help.

 

[Choppy]

Hi,
I have a question related to medical physics and other fields of physics.
So, HOW is medical physics or radiation oncology different from other fields of physics in terms of the level of MATHEMATICS and MODERN PHYSICS used in it?
I know my question sounds repetitive but I'm trying to get a clearer answer.
For example, what is the level of difficulty of the "physics and math" courses taken by a medical physics Ph.D. student compared to let's say a particle physics student?
I appreciate your help.

I'm not really sure how to answer this. How do you quantify "level of difficulty?" I've seen people go into medical physics under the belief that it is somehow going to be easier than some other branch of physics that they came from and fail out. On the other hand, one could argue that it's possible to have a clinical career in medical physics without ever having to do any mathematics more complicated than high school level algebra (during one's day-to-day career I mean, that person would still have to get though graduate school first). In most cases I would say that a typical medical physicist should be comfortable with mathematics up to the level of Boas' Mathematical Methods book, which is something that most undergraduate physics programs should cover. Further details really depend on the types of research projects you get involved with or one's specific clinical responsibilities.

Did you look up the journals that I linked to earlier? Those should give you an idea of what kind of research work is involved in medical physics and the level of mathematics and physics that's used.

 

[AryaKimiaghalam]

I'm not really sure how to answer this. How do you quantify "level of difficulty?" I've seen people go into medical physics under the belief that it is somehow going to be easier than some other branch of physics that they came from and fail out. On the other hand, one could argue that it's possible to have a clinical career in medical physics without ever having to do any mathematics more complicated than high school level algebra (during one's day-to-day career I mean, that person would still have to get though graduate school first). In most cases I would say that a typical medical physicist should be comfortable with mathematics up to the level of Boas' Mathematical Methods book, which is something that most undergraduate physics programs should cover. Further details really depend on the types of research projects you get involved with or one's specific clinical responsibilities.

Did you look up the journals that I linked to earlier? Those should give you an idea of what kind of research work is involved in medical physics and the level of mathematics and physics that's used.

I didn't have the opportunity to look through those journals. I would surely look through them. thank you for answering my question

 

[AryaKimiaghalam]

I was searching medical physics jobs on Indeed. I couldn't find any well-defined jobs for medical physicists. Is it hard to find a job in this field in Canada? Do we need a lot of connections and recommendations for getting a job? How is the job market in your opinion Choppy?

 

[gleem]

I am apparently the only other medical physicist besides @Choppy on this forum the issue being I have been retired for about ten years. My experience is in the US in the clinical environment. Having retired just as the medical physics PhD/residency requirement were being introduced does not allow me to comment directly on that processes. However I can provide some views on medical physics as a career focusing the clinical aspects for a smaller program.

First my background. I earned a PhD. in experimental nuclear physics. I became aware of medical physics as a graduate student because my department had an alumnus at the University of Wisconsin which had a thriving medical physics program. A few of my fellow grad student accepted post doc positions in medical physics around the country. At that time there was a growing need by medical physicists but no formal training programs. The US National Institute of Health originated fellowships for PhD physicists in the early '70s. These where carried out at cancer facilities, places like Sloan Kettering Memorial in NY, M D Anderson in Texas or one of several university hospitals. These were typically one year programs after which the physicist moved into the field. One could remain in research or move to the clinical setting. Choppy may know this but in North American I believe clinical medical physics began in Canada when Harold Johns was hired in Saskatchewan(?) in 1950 or so. He was charged with the duty of applying his physics knowledge to radiation therapy of which he had no idea. He wrote the textbook on radiological physics that became the standard for medical physics education for decades. From the 50's into the late '90's it was possible for physicists to get into the profession with on the job training a sort of mentoring system under a certified physicist. Apparently this did not produce consistently good results. It was only around 2000 that the talk of emulating the education process of physicians with a residency program came under serious discussion. Thus I grew up with an evolving profession.

So let me make a few observation. How much math do you use on a day to day basis in a clinical setting. Not too much. How much did I have way too much but without it I would have been pressed to understand some of the technical developments of the field. In a research setting well that is entirely different depending on the area of research. When I left the field it seemed to me more high powered math was being used in diagnostic imaging processing. Much of medical physics research is developmental, applied to clinical problems.

For a one or two man medical physics program the emphasis is on maintaining a safe productive clinical environment. Choppy likened it more to engineering than physics. I would take it a bit farther and say it is more like project engineering or better yet a manager with physics qualifications. A physicist or engineer might have in his job description terms like measuring, fabricating, analyzing, or developing. A clinical medical physicist's job description abounds with terms like supervising, directing, implementing, investigating, advising, evaluating, ensuring. Researcher might routinely talk to other technical persons who share there language while clinical physicists must routinely talk to non physics specialist like technologists, physicians, nurses, administrators (high level and low), craftsman/contractors, etc., and occasionally patients. Thus job description often emphasize good communication skill. You deal with people daily which require what is know as "soft skills". I believe a clinical physicist must make an effort to remain in the "loop" or risk missing to contribute to important issues because he was working too far behind the scenes. I call this a clinical presence for example checking difficult patient treatment setups or observing patient treatment simulations for possible treatment planning problems. Maintaining good rapport with a variety of persons who may or may not have your best interest in mind can be challenging.

It helps to have a obsessive element to your work ethic a serious vigilance of the activities of the department and a good attention to detail . A mistake or undetected deviation from policy can have extremely serious consequences. Like a physician a medical physicist is, except for a possible periodic peer review (recommended), has no none to evaluate his (technical) work until he makes a mistake.

As for research in the clinical setting it is more possible in a large department than in a small institution where you might have extra department duties.or one or two person department but it is possible if you can make the time. Speaking of time I have gone on too long. I hope this helps with your decision.

 

[AryaKimiaghalam]

Thanks it helped me greatly

 

[Choppy]

I was searching medical physics jobs on Indeed. I couldn't find any well-defined jobs for medical physicists. Is it hard to find a job in this field in Canada? Do we need a lot of connections and recommendations for getting a job? How is the job market in your opinion Choppy?

You're not likely to find too many medical physics jobs available on general job boards. Remember, for something to be posted there, the employers are probably casting a fairly wide net. Medical Physics is a relatively small community, particularly in Canada. When a job comes up, there's a good chance that many of the people qualified for it will already know about it just by word of mouth. The job will be posted on an internal website and often on the COMP or AAPM job boards. It's usually not necessary to cast a wider net than that.

Right now, competition for jobs in medical physics is relatively tight. The biggest bottleneck seems to be residency positions as the CAMPEP stats seem to suggest we're graduating about 300 students per year for 150 formal residency spots across North America. Once you have your certification things are better but not ideal. You have to be really flexible. The jobs available may not be in the city you want to work in, or even the province. Some Canadians will even head to the US or other countries.

And that's the picture right now. For someone just starting undergrad many years will pass before you're on the market for a career position. There's no guarantee things will be the same in a decade. Generally cancer care is expected to have steady growth though. But its always wise to have a back up plan.

 

[AryaKimiaghalam]

Thank you for the great advice choppy

 

[CrysPhys]

Right now, competition for jobs in medical physics is relatively tight. The biggest bottleneck seems to be residency positions as the CAMPEP stats seem to suggest we're graduating about 300 students per year for 150 formal residency spots across North America. Once you have your certification things are better but not ideal. You have to be really flexible. The jobs available may not be in the city you want to work in, or even the province. Some Canadians will even head to the US or other countries.

Is there reciprocity between Canada and the US? That is, can an applicant with a Canadian MS or PhD in medical physics automatically apply for a residency in the US, and can an applicant with a US MS or PhD in medical physics automatically apply for a residency in Canada, or are there additional hurdles? Similarly, is there reciprocity upon completion of residency and receiving certification?

 

[AryaKimiaghalam]

Choppy knows for sure

 

[Choppy]

Is there reciprocity between Canada and the US? That is, can an applicant with a Canadian MS or PhD in medical physics automatically apply for a residency in the US, and can an applicant with a US MS or PhD in medical physics automatically apply for a residency in Canada, or are there additional hurdles? Similarly, is there reciprocity upon completion of residency and receiving certification?

Generally yes, but of course the standard rules/conditions for working in a different country apply.

Most residencies take in new candidates through the AAPM's matching program, i.e. candidates apply to a central system and select the programs that they're interested in. The programs then get a chance to interview and rank potential applicants and then everything is fed through an algorithm that matches program top picks with applicant top interests. This mitigates the problems of new grads being forced to choose between a residency that's offered early that they don't really want with a residency that they really want that may or may not be offered in a few weeks. It's also meant to reduce the administrative burden on residency programs in the hopes that more smaller-scale operations will train new people and I think we've seen that happening over the last few years.

Some, but not all Canadian residency programs are involved in this, so we do see and accept American applicants. And American programs do get and accept Canadian applicants. I think there are questions of visa sponsorship either way though, and I've never been directly involved in that process, so I don't know the details. But academically and clinically applicants from Canadian and American programs are generally treated on par with each other.

Certification is done by the American Board of Radiology in the US and the Canadian College of Physicists in Medicine in Canada. Generally these certifications are accepted on par with each other. Some states are specific with the ABR certification though, but most people with a position up for grabs are aware that if a good candidate is capable of getting one certification he or she is capable of getting the other.

 

[AryaKimiaghalam]

Hello again.
I just wanted to ask a question about the salary of medical physicists in Canada. What is the range of their salary? Is it divided in the two categories of industry and clinics? Anybody has any credible sources?

 

[Choppy]

Hello again.
I just wanted to ask a question about the salary of medical physicists in Canada. What is the range of their salary? Is it divided in the two categories of industry and clinics? Anybody has any credible sources?

Like any other profession, salaries can vary considerably and will depend on a number of factors including years of experience, highest degree awarded, certification, geographic location, specialization, whether or not you do consulting work on the side, etc.

The AAPM and COMP conduct annual professional surveys so that members can have an idea of where they stand in relation to their peers. The AAPM does include information on Canadian medical physicists. You need to be a member of both of those organizations for that data though. (I think student memberships are fairly cheap though.)

I think Ontario's collective agreement with the Professional Institute of the Public Service of Canada is publically available.

 

[AryaKimiaghalam]

Thanks Choppy

 

[AryaKimiaghalam]

Hi again
Is it possible to get a medical physics Ph.D. and specialize in optics/quantum optics and imaging physics?
I'm very confused?

 

[Choppy]

The PhD projects in most accredited medical physics programs tend to be related to radiation oncology physics, diagnostic imaging, MRI, or nuclear medicine, but they don't necessarily have to be. There are tangents one can branch out into. For example I've seen medical physics PhD students working on optical coherence tomography, terahertz imaging, or photo-acoustic imaging projects. A lot really depends on the details of your program, what the faculty interests are and what equipment they have available or access to.

 

[AryaKimiaghalam]

So, optics (or quantum)/ medical imaging can be a Ph.D. subject.
Actually, the reason why I'm sticking to the quantum optics part is that I'm mostly interested in developing imaging techniques and dealing with the fundamentals of imaging in medicine (like NMR), and I'm worried that both subjects cannot be done in a single program, like medical physics.

 

[AryaKimiaghalam]

Hey choppy
Sorry to bother you
Is it possible for a person to get a M.Sc in let's say quantum mechanics and get into medical physics phd program? How this works?
Thanks