How many numbers to describe a point in space in GR?

In summary, it takes only four coordinates (numbers) to uniquely identify any point in space and time; that's why we call it a 4-dimensional spacetime. With a little extra information, like the energy density and curvature at a point, one can get down to six numbers to completely describe it. However, there is so much more to spacetime that goes beyond the four coordinates that we use to describe points. Einstein's equation, which is just the mathematical description of how space and time are related, requires 10 more numbers to fully describe a point. This means that even though we can describe a point in space with just four numbers, there is still a lot of information hidden inside of that description.
  • #1
edpell
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4
How many numbers does it take to describe a point in space in GR?
 
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  • #2
Just the location? Four.
 
  • #3
hamster143 said:
Just the location? Four.

I guess I set myself up for that one. Not sure how to word it. With all the stress and strain and tension and whatever I have missed what does it take to describe a point in space? Maybe I should say describe all the things that go into Einstein's equation

R_{ab} - {\textstyle 1 \over 2}R\,g_{ab} = \kappa T_{ab}.\,
 
  • #4
I'm really not sure what you're getting at. It takes only 4 coordinates (numbers) to uniquely identify any point in space and time; that's why we call it a 4-dimensional spacetime. But there is a lot of extra information that goes into Einstein's equation that is not built into the 4 coordinates of a point - like the energy density at the point, the curvature at the point, etc. None of that changes the fact that 4 coordinates are enough to uniquely identify the point.

Can you explain your question in some more detail, perhaps?
 
  • #5
diazona said:
there is a lot of extra information that goes into Einstein's equation that is not built into the 4 coordinates of a point - like the energy density at the point, the curvature at the point, etc.

I am asking what are all the "extra information that goes into Einstein's equation"?

you have:
energy density (one number? a four vector?)
curvature (one number? a four vector?)
others?

Thanks.
 
  • #6
edpell said:
How many numbers does it take to describe a point in space in GR?

Check out the old thread:

https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=346393

Look at post # 14 by Phark:

"...I found something on it. The wiki claims that a pseudo-Riemann manifold can be embedded in an n(n+1)/2 pseudo-Euclidian space. This would be 10 for spacetime. ..."

Also if the metric g_ij is a symetric 4X4 tensor then at a point it can be approximated by ten numbers?
 
  • #7
Indeed, one can completely determine the metric at any point in spacetime with 10 numbers. If one allows for coordinate transformations, a clever person could get this down to only six numbers.
 
  • #8
Nabeshin said:
Indeed, one can completely determine the metric at any point in spacetime with 10 numbers. If one allows for coordinate transformations, a clever person could get this down to only six numbers.

Not being smart I will stick with 10.

So each point can be described by four numbers for the coordinate and 10 numbers for one symmetric 4x4 tensor a total of 14 numbers.
 
  • #9
edpell said:
Not being smart I will stick with 10.

So each point can be described by four numbers for the coordinate and 10 numbers for one symmetric 4x4 tensor a total of 14 numbers.

A well posed question is half the answer.

The question "where is it" can be answered with four numbers, x, y, z, t, presupposing the coordinate system.

The question "what's the relationship between distances and the coordinate chart in the vicinity of that point" can be answered with ten numbers, ten components of the metric tensor, again presupposing the coordinate system.

The question "what's the geometry and the curvature in the vicinity of that point" can be answered with twenty additional numbers, due to the fact that the most general Riemann tensor has twenty independent components.

The question "what's the physics over there" requires four to infinity numbers, four in the simplest case of non-interacting dust, physically interesting cases will, at the very least, require pressure, viscosity strains and temperature, for the total of 11 (10 independent components of the stress-energy tensor + temperature). If you have multiple fields in the same region of space, you need the complete description of all internal degrees of freedom for each.
 
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  • #10
I am beginning to see why numerical GR (computer simulations) is still just in the starting phase.
 
  • #11
hamster143 said:
A well posed question is half the answer.

The question "where is it" can be answered with four numbers, x, y, z, t, presupposing the coordinate system.

The question "what's the relationship between distances and the coordinate chart in the vicinity of that point" can be answered with ten numbers, ten components of the metric tensor, again presupposing the coordinate system.

The question "what's the geometry and the curvature in the vicinity of that point" can be answered with twenty additional numbers, due to the fact that the most general Riemann tensor has twenty independent components.

The question "what's the physics over there" requires four to infinity numbers, four in the simplest case of non-interacting dust, physically interesting cases will, at the very least, require pressure, viscosity strains and temperature, for the total of 11 (10 independent components of the stress-energy tensor + temperature). If you have multiple fields in the same region of space, you need the complete description of all internal degrees of freedom for each.

What a thought provoking answer, thank you!
 

FAQ: How many numbers to describe a point in space in GR?

How many numbers are needed to describe a point in space in General Relativity (GR)?

The answer to this question depends on the specific context and coordinate system being used. In GR, points in space are typically described using four numbers, known as coordinates. These coordinates can be represented in various coordinate systems, such as Cartesian or spherical, each of which may require a different number of numbers to describe a point.

Why are four numbers used to describe a point in space in GR?

GR is based on the theory of relativity, which states that space and time are intertwined and cannot be considered separately. Therefore, points in space are described using four numbers, known as spacetime coordinates, to account for both space and time dimensions. This allows for a more complete and accurate description of the universe.

Are there any situations where more or less than four numbers are needed to describe a point in space in GR?

Yes, there are situations where more or less than four numbers may be needed to describe a point in space in GR. For example, in certain coordinate systems or spacetimes, more than four numbers may be required to accurately describe a point. Additionally, in simplified models or approximations, fewer than four numbers may be used to describe a point in space.

Can a point in space be described using only one number in GR?

No, a point in space cannot be accurately described using only one number in GR. As mentioned earlier, a point in space is typically described using four numbers to account for both space and time dimensions. Attempting to describe a point using only one number would oversimplify the complex nature of space and time in GR.

How do the numbers used to describe a point in space in GR relate to the curvature of spacetime?

The numbers used to describe a point in space in GR are related to the curvature of spacetime through the theory's fundamental equations, known as the Einstein field equations. These equations describe how matter and energy cause spacetime to curve, and the coordinates of a point in space are used to map out this curvature and its effects on the surrounding spacetime.

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