How much electricity can a generator generate before it wears out?

[Psinter]

I was wondering out of boredom, how much would a generator last generating electricity if I keep it running for forever.

Assuming I have fuel for forever and I start a generator, how much would it last before it stops generating electricity?

Like, does the copper wires wear out and stop generating electricity at some point in time? How much electricity would it have generated until the copper runs out? (if it runs out at all)

I know I cannot have fuel for forever, but idk I sort of wonder what would be its maximum potential before it wears out (if it wears out).

 

[berkeman]

I was wondering out of boredom, how much would a generator last generating electricity if I keep it running for forever.

Assuming I have fuel for forever and I start a generator, how much would it last before it stops generating electricity?

Like, does the copper wires wear out and stop generating electricity at some point in time? How much electricity would it have generated until the copper runs out? (if it runs out at all)

I know I cannot have fuel for forever, but idk I sort of wonder what would be its maximum potential before it wears out (if it wears out).

What kind of things do you think are on a generator's periodic maintenance (PM) schedule?

 

[carlgrace]

I was wondering out of boredom, how much would a generator last generating electricity if I keep it running for forever.

Assuming I have fuel for forever and I start a generator, how much would it last before it stops generating electricity?

Like, does the copper wires wear out and stop generating electricity at some point in time? How much electricity would it have generated until the copper runs out? (if it runs out at all)

I know I cannot have fuel for forever, but idk I sort of wonder what would be its maximum potential before it wears out (if it wears out). [PLAIN]http://yoursmiles.org/msmile/think/m1738.gif[/QUOTE]

It depends almost entirely on the design of the generator. Also, the copper will likely never "run out" unless you are driving big DC currents through it in which case you have to look out for electromigration which can create voids in the metal's crystal structure.

 

[sophiecentaur]

There is no limit if you can replace the bearings and brushes, assuming that any of the insulation and supporting material doesn't break down due to overheating or vibration. I'm assuming that, in your scenario, you're allowed to stop for periodic maintenance.

 

[Psinter]

What kind of things do you think are on a generator's periodic maintenance (PM) schedule?

The word "maintenance" triggers in my head: oiling or greasing the moving parts of the engine, checking for problems on moving parts because of heat/friction and fix them if deemed neccesary before they become a bigger deal, and new oil. But I can't find any reason to touch the copper wires of the coil, so they are not included in the maintenance. That's my guess.

It depends almost entirely on the design of the generator. Also, the copper will likely never "run out" unless you are driving big DC currents through it in which case you have to look out for electromigration which can create voids in the metal's crystal structure.

There is no limit if you can replace the bearings and brushes, assuming that any of the insulation and supporting material doesn't break down due to overheating or vibration. I'm assuming that, in your scenario, you're allowed to stop for periodic maintenance.

I see. Thanks for your answers.

@sophiecentaur
LOL! Your signature. "It's turtles all the way down!"

 

[sophiecentaur]

I see. Thanks for your answers.

@sophiecentaur
LOL! Your signature. "It's turtles all the way down!"

Did you get the reference?

This thread puts me in mind of the "Trigger's Broom" idea - same broom but six new heads and four new shafts.

 

[SteamKing]

Were you afraid of running out of electrons if the generator runs too long?

 

[jim hardy]

Here's one that's been running since 1897:

http://edisontechcenter.org/Mechanicville.html

 

[NascentOxygen]

I was wondering out of boredom, how much would a generator last generating electricity if I keep it running for forever.

Assuming I have fuel for forever and I start a generator, how much would it last before it stops generating electricity?

I have a notion that a permanent field magnet will eventually weaken, not through being "used up", but from heat and vibration and an opposing field knocking it around. So if your generator were based on a set of permanent magnets, I think to keep it as new these may need to be replaced (or re-set) after some tens of thousands of hours of bumping that dis-aligns some of the domains.

[PLAIN]http://yoursmiles.org/msmile/think/m1738.gif[/QUOTE]
Thank you. http://physicsforums.bernhardtmediall.netdna-cdn.com/images/icons/icon14.gif I'll just add that one to my emoticon album!

 

[Psinter]

Did you get the reference?

Sort of

Were you afraid of running out of electrons if the generator runs too long?

Not exactly afraid, it was more like curious. But up to a certain point, yes.

Here's one that's been running since 1897:

http://edisontechcenter.org/Mechanicville.html

Whoa, neat and amazing. I live close to a river, but I don't think it has enough flow to put a generator there.

I have a notion that a permanent field magnet will eventually weaken, not through being "used up", but from heat and vibration and an opposing field knocking it around. So if your generator were based on a set of permanent magnets, I think to keep it as new these may need to be replaced (or re-set) after some tens of thousands of hours of bumping that dis-aligns some of the domains.

Thank you. http://physicsforums.bernhardtmediall.netdna-cdn.com/images/icons/icon14.gif I'll just add that one to my emoticon album!

I see, that's a lot of time. Probably more than my lifespan.

Btw, aren't all electricity generators based on permanent magnets? I may be wrong, but I think a permanent magnet is a must. Like I can't think of any that doesn't have those.

 

[SteamKing]

AC or DC generators can be self-excited, which means that a separate current is used to create an electro-magnetic field. Such devices do not use permanent magnets.

 

[NascentOxygen]

I see, that's a lot of time. Probably more than my lifespan.

You anticipate a very short life span?

Btw, aren't all electricity generators based on permanent magnets? I may be wrong, but I think a permanent magnet is a must. Like I can't think of any that doesn't have those.

An electromagnet can be constructed to generate a stronger field than we can get from a permanent magnet. (At least, that used to be true, with newer materials the situation may have changed.) If you want to be able to vary the strength of the field, it's far easier to do with an electromagnet.

 

[gerbi]

If you will retrofit insulation system, worn mechanical elements etc. it will work as long as copper won't turn into something else - but this is a question rather to a chemist or physicist (you know, chemical elements stability, decay time and stuff).

Btw, aren't all electricity generators based on permanent magnets? I may be wrong, but I think a permanent magnet is a must. Like I can't think of any that doesn't have those.

There are two main methods to create excitation magnetic field in machine: permeant magnets and electromagnets (it's a coil, either supplied from outside source or in a self-excited verison). Permeant magnets are used in small devices, in bigger ones electromagnets are used.

 

[d3mm]

Did you get the reference?

QFT says it's fields not turtles :-)

 

[Jobrag]

It will run till it runs out of smoke, all electrical devices need smoke to work. When you see the smoke coming out of an electrical device you know that it won't work again.

 

[jim hardy]

It will run till it runs out of smoke, all electrical devices need smoke to work. When you see the smoke coming out of an electrical device you know that it won't work again.

In US household wiring the wire with the smoke in it is black.

 

[sophiecentaur]

In US household wiring the wire with the smoke in it is black.

It's a sort of fail safe colouring system (I'm not entirely joking). If you find a brown wire then it could be live. i.e. a live (brown) one or a blue one that has gone brown in the heat. If you find a blue one then you know it must be the neutral. And the Green / Yellow stripe would still appear stripy, even when burned. Cunning eh?

 

[anorlunda]

The electric generators at Niagara Falls served continuously for 111 years (if my memory is correct) with little more than a few drops of oil each year. They were retired, not because they wore out, but rather because modern turbine/generators are more efficient, and because there was not much market for the 25 hertz power that the original generators generated.

The answer is that electric generators don't wear out; at least they don't wear more than any other machine with moving parts.

 

[sophiecentaur]

The electric generators at Niagara Falls served continuously for 111 years (if my memory is correct) with little more than a few drops of oil each year. They were retired, not because they wore out, but rather because modern turbine/generators are more efficient, and because there was not much market for the 25 hertz power that the original generators generated.

The answer is that electric generators don't wear out; at least they don't wear more than any other machine with moving parts.

That's a proper little gem of information - cheers. Flickering light bulbs or whaaaat?

 

[jim hardy]

That's a proper little gem of information - cheers. Flickering light bulbs or whaaaat?

I visited that site in early 1970's. Indeed the lights in old buildings with 25 (or was it 20?) hz power had visible flicker.

Hydro power is incredibly cheap.
At that time my father-in-law's plant nearby bought electricity delivered to their transformer for 1.8 mils per kwh.
Even then that was less than our nuclear fuel cost.
It's less than $\frac{1}{50}$th of my residential cost today.
But - regulation came along.
NY State took over and put an end to the economic benefit of proximity to hydro.
Lots of industry around Niagara Falls shut down. Father-in-law's plant got moved to Brazil.

old jim

 

[Psinter]

I visited that site in early 1970's. Indeed the lights in old buildings with 25 (or was it 20?) hz power had visible flicker.

Hydro power is incredibly cheap.
At that time my father-in-law's plant nearby bought electricity delivered to their transformer for 1.8 mils per kwh.
Even then that was less than our nuclear fuel cost.
It's less than $\frac{1}{50}$th of my residential cost today.
But - regulation came along.
NY State took over and put an end to the economic benefit of proximity to hydro.
Lots of industry around Niagara Falls shut down. Father-in-law's plant got moved to Brazil.

old jim

I pay a quarter (25 cents) per kwh. And one time it peaked to approximately 28 cents. Everyone was furious against the electric company, but since it's the only provider for the whole country they don't care about the customers. If that is the effect increase in cost of electricity in like 40 years I don't want to know how much it will be in 40 more years. Maybe $1.00 per kwh?

There was a hydroelectric generator close to my place, but it got shut down and now they use petroleum based machines to generate electricity. Doesn't make any sense right. With all these green energy stuff I don't get it either.

You anticipate a very short life span?

Yeah, but it will be enough.

AC or DC generators can be self-excited, which means that a separate current is used to create an electro-magnetic field. Such devices do not use permanent magnets.

Didn't know about those, now I know because I googled.

 

[the_emi_guy]

Did you get the reference?

This thread puts me in mind of the "Trigger's Broom" idea - same broom but six new heads and four new shafts.

I had not heard of "Only Fools have Horses", nor the "Ship of Theseus".

So, I just found the "Triggers Broom" scene on YouTube, watched it, and nearly fell out of my chair laughing!

Thanks

 

[sophiecentaur]

@Jim
What's a "mil"? $1/1000?

 

[jim hardy]

@Jim
What's a "mil"? $1/1000?

Precisely.

Sorry - I forgot you fellows aren't on decimal currency...

My cost here in rural Arkansas (mid US) is about 14 cents per kwh. Plus meter charges, taxes, etc etc etc. We are a mix of coal and hydro .
Tennessee Valley Authority is a series of hydro dams along Tennessee River.
An old timer in a TVA hydro plant once remarked to me: "We sell that rain three times before it gets out of state".

old jim

 

[sophiecentaur]

Precisely.

Sorry - I forgot you fellows aren't on decimal currency...

My cost here in rural Arkansas (mid US) is about 14 cents per kwh. Plus meter charges, taxes, etc etc etc. We are a mix of coal and hydro .
Tennessee Valley Authority is a series of hydro dams along Tennessee River.
An old timer in a TVA hydro plant once remarked to me: "We sell that rain three times before it gets out of state".

old jim

Only since 1972 ! But no one over here, afaik, uses "£mils".
Did you never travel to the UK and spend money? It's a great place to fall ill with no private insurance (dig dig) and the weather can be really lovely. Plus we know how to make really good beer - it goes on . . . . . . .:!)

Sorry - that wasn't supposed to include a lurve icon. I don't know where it came from and I can't edit it out.

 

[turbo]

I have serviced hydro-turbines that have been in service since the days of electrification in Maine. Usually, the Lignum vitae bearings had worn, causing some run-out, and I specced in some Thordon bearing materials (widely used in marine vessels for tail-shaft bearings). A little water for lubrication and cooling, and you're good for another 100+ years.

BTW, for obvious reasons (oil in the river) you don't want oil-lubricated bearings in hydro generators. Lignum vitae was the go-to in the old days because it lasted really well with water lubrication/cooling. Thordon sleeve bearing materials filled that niche really nicely.

 

[wirenut]

I remeber going to open house @ dads workplace in Buffalo NY during the '70s and being amazed @the machinery. (he worked @ Buffalo forge in the city) As I grew older and became an electrician I started learning that the whole plant was 25hz. A few years ago national grid decided to shut down the 25hz system. I've been working in the WNY area for 25 yrs and only once ran into 25hz equip. and that was only some cheap building owner wanting to reuse 25hz xfrms when his 60hz xfmr went down. Those things sure do have a LOT of iron in them, and it was interesting working with the old timers to test it and get it set up.

 

[jim hardy]

Sorry - that wasn't supposed to include a lurve icon. I don't know where it came from and I can't edit it out.

its okay - made me reminisce about another great British invention - the miniskirt, about the time I graduated high school.
We took to whistling London Derry Air.

Thanks for the Thordon tip turbo - I hope there's an inboard motorboat in my future.
If I recall lignum vitae was used for ship propeller shafts well into 1960's.

Wirenut - my father-in-law was at Carborundum in Niagara Falls.
They made Carborundum abrasives and Fiberfrax refractory insulation.
Huge electric arc furnaces to melt the silica sand.
Part of that plant was 25 hz

Thanks guys , interesting how paths cross.

Sophie - I enjoy the dig.
I expect our medical industry to be nationalized. I could go on a political rant now but that's for another forum -
www.market-ticker.org.

old jim

 

[berkeman]

Whelp, I think we've wandered far enough now. The OP hopefully has his answers.

Interesting conversation though...