How to prove Physics competency to grad school admission committees?

[abdulhayee]

Greetings,

This is a slightly longer post but it's coming from someone who's humbly and sincerely passionate+motivated about pursuing Physics and hence I'd be immensely grateful to everyone who can help me clear my confusions and see a ray of light and hope! You'd be doing me a solid :)

My request: Given the context below, I need guidance regarding following three confusions:
(i) How can I best develop a strong competency in undergraduate Physics and build my profile for admission in a Physics Master's/PhD?
(ii) How can I then be able to prove to graduate school admission committees (Master's/PhD) my competency in undergraduate Physics and my ability to do well in grad school and to conduct meaningful research in an area of my choice in Physics?
(iii) Should I first do a Master's in Physics after quickly finishing my CSE degree (i.e., only do coursework in my CSE degree) and then later do a PhD; or should I take longer to finish my CSE degree (i.e., take time to learn enough Physics to determine my exact area of interest in Physics + do Physics-related research, projects, and publish papers, do relevant extracurriculars) to build my profile and directly go for a PhD in Physics skipping a Master's?

Context: I'm from Pakistan and I've studied Civil Engineering from Pakistan's best engineering school, earned my Bachelor's degree with a 3.86 CGPA. Though I excelled in the Civil Engineering degree, my real academic passions since high school have been Physics, Mathematics, Computers, Space exploration, Cosmology and Astronomy. I was especially talented in high school Physics and Maths, where I thoroughly understood both the problem-solving and theoretical aspects and had a very strong abstract understanding of all the concepts.

Despite my interest in Physics, I ended up in Civil Engineering due to some circumstances which I won't mention here because it's a long story. I excelled in the degree and throughout the four years, I was often the go-to person for my peers when they needed any academic help. Despite being in an engineering program, I was never satisfied with only learning problem solving, analysis, and design. I could only take a sigh of relief until after I had understood the theory too and the "why" and "how" behind every concept we learnt and how all the mathematical models and equations made an intuitive sense. After doing a leadership-development teaching Fellowhip for two years post-graduation, I decded to pivot back to my passion for Physics becuase I felt that if I wanted to become a Physicist then it was now or never for me to transition to it. However, with a Civil Engineering background, transitioning directly to a Physics Master's was challenging and it was impossible for me to get into a Physics Master's program with a non-Physics background. So instead, I chose to study Computational Science and Engineering (CSE) for my Master's. CSE blends Mathematics, Computer Science, and allows for a focus in an area like Physics which was ideal for me. I aimed and still do to use this Master's as a bridge into Physics.

Currently, I'm through one semester of my CSE Master's (at a minimum I have to spend two more and at the maximum I can spend seven more). Now, in the summer semester-break, I've been preparing for a future in Physics by self-studying core undergraduate Physics topics using Leonard Susskind's Theoretical Minimum courses. I've also started prepping for the Physics GRE. And after I've learnt the whole cannon of undergrad Physics, I'll decide on my exact area of focus in Physics.

I've already revised basic Math courses such as Single-variable Calculus, Multivariable calculus, Linear Algebra, Differential Equations, and Advanced Partial Differential Equations.

Here's my LinkedIn profile in case anyone needs to have a holistic look at my experiences and education to be able to give better advice.

 

[berkeman]

Welcome to PF.

I've also started prepping for the Physics GRE.

How are your practice test scores so far?

 

[CrysPhys]

(iii) Should I first do a Master's in Physics after quickly finishing my CSE degree (i.e., only do coursework in my CSE degree) and then later do a PhD; or should I take longer to finish my CSE degree (i.e., take time to learn enough Physics to determine my exact area of interest in Physics + do Physics-related research, projects, and publish papers, do relevant extracurriculars) to build my profile and directly go for a PhD in Physics skipping a Master's?

Are you planning to stay in Pakistan, or go to another country for your physics studies? In the US, you typically enter a physics PhD program after a bachelor's. In some other countries, a master's is required.

 

[abdulhayee]

Welcome to PF. How are your practice test scores so far?

Thank you! :)

About practice tests, I assumed that I don't have the background/knowledge to even be able to attempt them so instead of doing that, I started learning all the topics and doing the examples in the order they are organzied in the "Conquering the Physics GRE" book. So far, every section I've read, I've understood it fully and have been able to successfully do its practice problems and examples. My plan is to learn all the Susskind courses and simultaneously go thorugh the corresponding sections in the Conquering the Physics GRE book. This way I'll have a strucutre that I can follow to learn everything I need.

What are you thoughts about this approach?

 

[abdulhayee]

Are you planning to stay in Pakistan, or go to another country for your physics studies? In the US, you typically enter a physics PhD program after a bachelor's. In some other countries, a master's is required.

Thank you for the reply!

My plan is to apply to colleges abroad, be it for Master's or for the PhD. I haven't yet shortlisted any countries/colleges/programs because I don't think I'm at that place yet to be able to know or decide for myself which exact country/college/program I would like to get into for my Physics studies. I feel like I still have to develop myself a lot to reach that place.

Building my Physics knowledge or skills is not something that worries me. I think I can do that if spend the time, energy and effort. My only concern is that how will I be able to showcase/prove those skills/knowledge to potential Master's/PhD admission committees given I don't have a Bachelor's in Physics.

 

[Vanadium 50]

This will not be easy.

• The physics education in Pakistan is poor.
• Lots of people come to PF with the plan to score well on the GRE. This is easier said than done. And this is only part of the application package.
• There are many people in exactly the sane boat - applying to physics programs from countries with a degree in something else. Even if a university were to take a chance on one of these people, how do you ensure it will be you?

I don't know what to tell you. Normally, I'd say emigrate now and enter a program there. However, many nations have had problems with immigrants from some pats of the world - including Pakistan - so it's not as easy as it was.

Do you need financial support?

 

[abdulhayee]

This will not be easy.

• The physics education in Pakistan is poor.
• Lots of people cometo PF with the plan to score well on the GRE. This is easier said than done. Abd this is only part of the application package.
• There are many people in exactly the sane boat - applying to physics programs from countries with a degree in something else. Even if a university were to take a chance on one of these people, how do you ensure it will be you?

I don't know what to tell you. Normally, I'd say emigrate now and enter a program there. However, many nations have had problems with immigrants from some pats of the world - inclusing Pakistan - so it's not as easy as it was.

Do you need financial support?

Thank you for the reply!

I totally agree with you that the transition will not be easy but I'm willing and ready to go through the required difficulty and hard work to be able to pursue what I love the most. And as the saying goes or so, when has anything worthwhile and meaningful ever been easy :) Plus, I have a strong STEM background so it'll not be too difficult for me to transition into Physics (hopefully).

And I know the Physics education in Pakistan falls short compared to the rest of the world but every year many students from Pakistan get into some of the best schools in the world for natural sciences and engineering so it's not a lost cause. I personally know people who are currently at Oxford and Cambridge doing Physics.

I'm planning to apply to places by next year's April/May (to programs which will be accepting applications then) so I have 8-9 months for the Physics GRE prep (which I'm planning to take in April). Do you agree that it is enough time for me to have a very strong prep for the test?

I totally get where you're coming from, but to ensure I'll be selected, I'm obviously going to try to get stellar grades, give stellar General GRE and Physics GRE tests, do worthwhile research/projects in my current degree which can lead to publications, learn as much Math, Physics, and CSE skills as possible and as I'll need in the future - and then hopefully I'll have strong enough credentials for some universities to accept me.

Can you explain a little more about why should I "emigrate now and enter a program there"?

I'll definitely need financial support but if I don't find any for the life of me, I can support myself too.

 

[CrysPhys]

Thank you for the reply!

My plan is to apply to colleges abroad, be it for Master's or for the PhD. I haven't yet shortlisted any countries/colleges/programs because I don't think I'm at that place yet to be able to know or decide for myself which exact country/college/program I would like to get into for my Physics studies. I feel like I still have to develop myself a lot to reach that place.

Building my Physics knowledge or skills is not something that worries me. I think I can do that if spend the time, energy and effort. My only concern is that how will I be able to showcase/prove those skills/knowledge to potential Master's/PhD admission committees given I don't have a Bachelor's in Physics.

I'd recommend that you come up with an initial shortlist. Because each school will determine what's acceptable demonstration of your proficiency in physics (e.g., placement exams). And it will likely matter whether you apply for a US school (e.g., application to a PhD program) or a non-US school (e.g., application to a master's program). So it's best to contact the graduate admissions office at several schools, and see what they specifically want.

And what will likely help is doing a research project for a physicist, someone who can say, "This guy's got what it takes to become a physicist."

But I agree with V50; it won't be easy.

 

[abdulhayee]

I'd recommend that you come up with an initial shortlist. Because each school will determine what's acceptable demonstration of your proficiency in physics (e.g., placement exams). And it will likely matter whether you apply for a US school (e.g., application to a PhD program) or a non-US school (e.g., application to a master's program). So it's best to contact the graduate admissions office at several schools, and see what they specifically want.

And what will likely help is doing a research project for a physicist, someone who can say, "This guy's got what it takes to become a physicist."

But I agree with V50; it won't be easy.

Thanks for the reassurance. I'll definitely soon shortlist some schools and write to their graduate admission offices for guidance. It's sound advice and it came to my mind also to directly reach out to the universities instead of staying in a confusion limbo.

And I'm definitely planning on doing research/projects in the coming academic year. Hoping I can find good research mentors/advisors and that the research/work with them will pave a path for me to get into Physics schools.

When you say it won't be easy, do mean it will be nearly impossible / a lost cause OR it will be possible but I just have a very demanding road ahead of me?

 

[Vanadium 50]

My point was that countries tend to support education of their own citizens better than citizens of other countries.

Your plan is, as I understand it, to study physics on your own, without benefit of a university, and complete it maybe 5 times faster than a typical student at, say, Harvard or Cambridge, and then outcompete them for graduate school admissions. While this is possible, is it probable?

You also need to understand how dismal the education system is in Pakistan. While rankings are a very blunt instrument, the best university in Pakistan ranks well below the lowest-ranked physics PhD granting university in the US. And you don't even have a physics degree - "STEM is STEM" is not going to convince anyone

 

[CrysPhys]

When you say it won't be easy, do mean it will be nearly impossible / a lost cause OR it will be possible but I just have a very demanding road ahead of me?

Is the path you've envisioned to get from where you are today to where you want to be in the future likely to succeed? No, for the reasons that V50 elucidated above.

Is there a path to get from where you are today to where you want to be in the future that is likely to succeed? Yes, but it will require more time and more money than you are probably envisioning at this moment. We've discussed this in other threads. You either need to complete a second bachelor's in physics (which could take less than 4 yrs if you get placement for various courses you've already taken). Or you need to enroll as a non-matriculating (non-degree) student to take the physics and math courses you need for applying to physics grad school. In the US, some colleges won't allow you to enroll for a second bachelor's, if you already have a first bachelor's; at those schools, only the second option is available (and not all schools might support this option either). Then there's the issue of how to pay for all this, and what visa regulations (constantly changing) permit (e.g., you might have to show that you have the necessary funds on hand).

If you go the route of further undergrad education (rather than directly into graduate education), look into opportunities at liberal arts colleges in the US. Some have solid undergrad physics programs, deep endowment funds, and strong outreach programs for foreign students. If you luck out, you might even find a scholarship targetted for Pakistani students majoring in science. You'd be surprised at the wide range of targetted scholarships. If you're female, take a close look at the opportunities at Wellesley, since it has a cross-enrollment program with MIT.

And serendipity is not to be discounted. E.g., one or more of your professors in Pakistan might have relatives or friends who are physics professors in other countries. Personal connections can have great value in scenarios such as yours.

 

[Vanadium 50]

Rereading this thread, I am struck by the phrase "prove competency". Grad school admissions are competitive - schools are not looking to admit N students, they are looking to admit the N best students. The number of students who take the PGRE is about 3x the number who enroll.

Google tells me that there are ~9500 US physics BS awardees per year, 5500-6000 people take the GRE (including foreign nationals) and 2000 or so students enroll. Probably most of the 9000 are "competent" but they aren't all competitive.

 

[CrysPhys]

Depends on which nuanced meaning of "competent" you're referring to. The Google definitions (provided by Oxford Languages, so probably British leaning) are:

having the necessary ability, knowledge, or skill to do something successfully.

* (of a person) efficient and capable

* acceptable and satisfactory, though not outstanding.

You're using the "acceptable and satisfactory, though not outstanding" meaning; i.e., what some would consider to be "minimally competent". But Ayn Rand placed an extraordinarily high value on "competent" (I just recently re-read Atlas Shrugged). As an undergrad, I worked as research assistant for one extremely demanding professor. When he called me "competent", it was a sign of high praise (he wanted me to do my PhD program with him).

 

[Vanadium 50]

Did you see The Simpsons episode A Streetcar Named Marge? Maggie was sent tyo the Ayn Rand School For Tots:

My point is that minimal competency is not going to be enough. There are plenty of people who would complete grad school if a seat was open for them - but there aren't that many seats. Which is one of the reasons I asked about support - it's easier for the department to create an extra seat if it doesn't cost them anything.

 

[Frabjous]

There is another concern other than getting in and that is being successful In graduate school. I do not believe that Susskind is sufficient preparation for graduate courses in mechanics, QM and E&M. A significant percentage of first year candidates never make it to the end.

 

[gmax137]

I googled, "Physics PhD candidates by Bachelor's degree"

The AIP website shows 93% as physics/astro, and 5% engineering.

So the OP's plan is not impossible but it isn't the best approach.

 

[CrysPhys]

My point is that minimal competency is not going to be enough. There are plenty of people who would complete grad school if a seat was open for them - but there aren't that many seats. Which is one of the reasons I asked about support - it's easier for the department to create an extra seat if it doesn't cost them anything.

I realize that. But it would be reasonable to read the OP's question as: How does a student without an undergraduate degree in physics prove competency in undergraduate physics at a sufficiently high level to gain admission to a graduate physics program? That's how I understood it after reading the first post ("competency" ~ "level of competency", rather than "minimal competency"); with the implicit qualification that the graduate physics program is of sufficiently high level to have value to the student.

 

[Vanadium 50]

There are a bunch of posters here in a similar situation. Our advice has been fairly consistent - the first step is take the classes a typical physics major does by whatever path available to you. And this is usually objected to "It tales too long!" "Someone else needs to pay for this" "I'll just get a 99th percentile on the PGRE and show those Stanvard Boys who's top dog!"

We're not supposed to be discouraging, but in the adult world "you can do anything you set your mind to" is not always the case, "You can do anything you set your mind to and your preferred path will take you there" is event less true.

We can estimate his chances - ths US takes 2000 students per year. ley's say 10% are non-US, non-India, and non-China. That leaves 200, mostly from the EU and Canada. Apparently 5% are non physics majors (although I bet most of them have or nearly have completed a physics BS curriculum) so we're talking 10 available slots. Ten is not a very big target to shoot for. Given that Pakistan's physics education is among the very worst in the world.

He needs to get his butt out of Pakistan and into a classroom. The plan of out-GREing the Stanvard crowd is not realistic.

 

[abdulhayee]

I realize that. But it would be reasonable to read the OP's question as: How does a student without an undergraduate degree in physics prove competency in undergraduate physics at a sufficiently high level to gain admission to a graduate physics program? That's how I understood it after reading the first post ("competency" ~ "level of competency", rather than "minimal competency"); with the implicit qualification that the graduate physics program is of sufficiently high level to have value to the student.

I meant exactly that.

 

[abdulhayee]

Thanks so much everyone for your replies and your warm and valuable guidance+perspective! I did not take any of it as discouraging, but instead took it as valuable information which has shaped my perspective about what lies ahead and what I can expect. I know harsh truths have to be served and I thank you for serving them hot.

This is a wonderful forum and all of you (who are more active here) are doing an incredible work in helping others and keeping such a vibrant community going. Keep at it! If anyone feels that there's still room for value addition in this thread, I'll be more than happy to receive your comments and learn from you :)

 

[Vanadium 50]

Best of luck!

 

[abdulhayee]

Best of luck!

Thank you! <3

 

[Wasae]

You can apply to applied physics programs which is a bridge between phy and engg. Unlike in pakistan, top private universities in US with PhD applied physics programs are very flexible (You can take theoretical physics courses and maybe switch while doing applied physics program if you are hard working) and you will receive full financial support.

Build solid intuition of classical mechanics (lagrangian, hamiltonian etc), electromagnetism , QM before entering the PhD program.

 

[Wasae]

Deadline is 15 dec for almost all universities

Also, you do not have to know what research you will be doing before joining university. What happens is that students get admitted and then they take classes and visit groups and then do select research interest based on that one year of interaction after getting admitted.

Also, letter of intent/motivation plays crucial role because it tells what the applicant is thinking . If you have the right motivation and really do enjoy physics , not there for fame or fortunate. Along with strong references will help.

Also, alot of PhD Physics is very mathematical, like Abstract Algebra and Mathematical Analysis.

Lastly, originality is the most important component of the research, which means that you get original ideas about solving a problem that nobody else thought of before.

 

[advhaver]

How does a student without an undergraduate degree in physics prove competency in undergraduate physics at a sufficiently high level to gain admission to a graduate physics program?

However, with a Civil Engineering background, transitioning directly to a Physics Master's was challenging and it was impossible for me to get into a Physics Master's program with a non-Physics background. So instead, I chose to study Computational Science and Engineering (CSE) for my Master's. CSE blends Mathematics, Computer Science, and allows for a focus in an area like Physics which was ideal for me. I aimed and still do to use this Master's as a bridge into Physics.

How much Physics have you formally studied? As part of the CSE, were you exposed to the kind of courses a BS in Physics would be?

If you intend to apply for a Ph.D. in Physics, any university's line of thinking would be, "What in this student's profile gives us confidence in their ability to succeed as a Physicist?" As a Ph.D. applicant (in the US), a university will not offer you a position unless they can fund your studies, and hence, they are selective in who they admit because they do not want the money spent on you to be wasted.

If you are applying for a Master's program (in the US), you must demonstrate the ability to fund your studies and living expenses. But a Master's in Physics is not a practical end game. It would, at best, serve as a stepping stone toward a Ph.D. in Physics.

Given that you will have 6 years of university education behind you (your Civil Engineering and CSE degrees), are you willing to spend another 6 years (minimum) doing a Master's followed by a Ph.D.? Assuming you graduated high school at 18 you would be 30 when you finish your Ph.D. Just a point to ponder.