I am thinking about joining the Air Force

[MotoH]

Maybe, but your recruiter has no pull whatsoever with the academy.

Of course not! I still have to get through admissions if I were going to get in, the call to the recruiter would be to make sure everything was correct and what not.

You need to have a letter from your state senator, which I can get pretty easily, and the SAT scores. There are some other insubstantial bits and bobs that have already been taken care of.

By no means do I have a spot secured if I were to go that route, but I probably have it a little easier than most because of the people around me.

 

[russ_watters]

Of course not! I still have to get through admissions if I were going to get in, the call to the recruiter would be to make sure everything was correct and what not.

Ehh, I wouldn't involve a recruiter in the process at all. He couldn't care less if you get into the academy or not.

You need to have a letter from your state senator, which I can get pretty easily, and the SAT scores. There are some other insubstantial bits and bobs that have already been taken care of.

Depending on what state, the nomination may or may not be easy. For me, in southeastern PA where there are hundreds of applicants for a handful of spots, it was not.

...and just so we're clear, it isn't a state senator (or rep), it is a senator (or rep) from your state.

 

[MotoH]

Yep, the guy in Washington. I'm not trying to come off as "oh me and the dean are best friends." I've just talked to my senator and he said that it shouldn't be a problem if I were to ask for the letter of recommendation.

I am assuming you went to AFA Mr. Watters? How did you like it? The campus looks amazing and I am thinking of going on the tour this summer

 

[russ_watters]

Navy.

 

[FredGarvin]

No offense, but you posted elsewhere that you were going to a CC. Not exactly a stellar item for an academy hopeful.

 

[MotoH]

No offense, but you posted elsewhere that you were going to a CC. Not exactly a stellar item for an academy hopeful.

I am also only 16 years old. If you were paying attention, you would have notice I said I was going via PSEO.

 

[cronxeh]

I did a semester of AFROTC, and the air force freesbie with bunch of ripe young college girls bouncing around.. well it was fun

Now that I mentioned it, I am seriously considering joining Air Force as an officer someday, just have to condense some thoughts together first.

 

[Invyz]

Can someone link me to the nuclear navy program you guys are talking about?
Also if I decide to do AFROTC, is it possible to enter the navy if I change my mind?
Also I have to grades and ability to get a recommendation to get into either the Naval or Air Force academy, what are the advantages of these schools over simply doing ROTC?

 

[cronxeh]

Can someone link me to the nuclear navy program you guys are talking about?
Also if I decide to do AFROTC, is it possible to enter the navy if I change my mind?
Also I have to grades and ability to get a recommendation to get into either the Naval or Air Force academy, what are the advantages of these schools over simply doing ROTC?

If you do AFROTC you are signing up after 2 classes (the 300 and 400 series can only be taken after you sign the contract). No, you can't switch to NAVY because you are on Air Force track. If you want to join the NAVY go to the NROTC or Naval Academy. Joining either of the academies will submerge you into the military lifestyle, you will live in discipline and breathe in the values. It is not the same as being a college hippy and occasionally running around in mud during leadership labs for ROTC

 

[Invyz]

See...how will I know whether that discipline and values are for me?
A Recruiter will be extremely biased, and I really am not familiar with anyone who has been through it.

 

[cronxeh]

See...how will I know whether that discipline and values are for me?
A Recruiter will be extremely biased, and I really am not familiar with anyone who has been through it.

That is exactly why you should take AFROTC AS 100 and AS 200 courses. You will learn history, values, and leadership skills without any obligation! You have to pay for the courses of course but its just like any other college course. You do not have to sign up for the military to take those courses. There is no obligation for you to continue taking them. You can leave at any time. You will meet some of the most oustanding people in AFROTC.

However if you decide to stay in the Air Force, you take the boot camp after AS 100 and AS 200, sign up, and you are now officially on your track to be an officer. After you complete AS 300 and AS 400 you will become 2nd Lt in Air Force. The reason why you have to sign up to take 300 and 400 is because it has some sensitive information.

I remember the first day I went there, they taught us how to stand straight, thumbs out with our hands on our side and how to salute a ranking officer. When you doing it, you do not feel demeaning, you are proud to be there. The commanding Colonel is at the detachment and he is talking to the cades and its like a big family that respects each other. This is on contrast with enlisted service (I don't know why I almost joined the NAVY at 17 for some reason after taking ASVAB)

Here is a course description: http://www.uml.edu/afrotc/default.html

AS 101 - Air Force Today I
Introduction to the U.S. Air Force and Air Force ROTC. This course will focus on officership and professionalism, military customs and courtesies, and communication skills.

AS 102 - Air Force Today II
Introduction to the history and organization of the U.S. Air Force. The origin of the Air Force will be described, and the current command structure will be reviewed.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
AS 201 - Evolution of Air and Space Power I
The Evolution of USAF Air and Space Power I survey course is designed to facilitate the transition from Air Force cadet to Air Force Officer candidate. Air Force heritage, leaders, and history are covered.

AS 202 - Evolution of Air and Space Power II
The Evolution of USAF Air and Space Power II continues study of topics coved in AS 201. Concepts of ethical behavior, basics of leadership, Air Force officer environment, group leadership problems and oral communication application.
--H-A-V-E--T-O--S-I-G-N--C-O-N-T-R-A-C-T--T-O--C-O-N-T-I-N-U-E---+-----f-i-e-l-d--T-r-a-i-n-i-n-g---------------------------------------------------------------------------
AS 301 - Air Force Leadership Studies I
Study of leadership authority, principles and accountability, management fundamentals, oral and written presentation and counseling skills required of an Air Force junior officer. Advanced Leadership Laboratory complements this course by providing leadership experience in officer-type activities.

AS 302 - Air Force Leadership Studies II
Study of professional knowledge, motivation, empowerment, mentoring, delegation, quality management, Air Force personnel and evaluation systems, leadership ethics, and oral and written presentation skills required of an Air Force junior officer. Continuation of Advanced Leadership Laboratory.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
AS 401 - National Security Affairs
This course is designed for college seniors and gives the foundation to understand their role as military officers in American society. The course closely examines the national security process, regional studies, Air Force doctrine, and current issues affecting the military profession. Emphasis is also given on refining oral and written communication skills. Continuation of Advanced Leadership Laboratory.

AS 402 - Preparation for Active Duty
Designed for college seniors and gives the foundation to understand their role as military officers in American society. This course builds upon the subject matter previously covered in AS 401 and also further examines regional studies, advanced leadership ethics, military justice, the military as a profession, and officership. Preparation for active duty life is one of the core elements of this course, and students will learn the role of an Air Force commander in addition to the different services and programs available on a military installation. Emphasis is also given to refining oral and written communication skills. Continuation of Advanced Leadership Laboratory.

 

[BobG]

Can someone link me to the nuclear navy program you guys are talking about?
Also if I decide to do AFROTC, is it possible to enter the navy if I change my mind?
Also I have to grades and ability to get a recommendation to get into either the Naval or Air Force academy, what are the advantages of these schools over simply doing ROTC?

If you want to make the military a career, there's definite advantages to attending one of the academies vs being ROTC.

For one thing, ROTC grads are reserves serving on active duty and have to be accepted "regular" to continue active duty. That part isn't quite trivial, but most will be accepted to continue active duty. It can make some difference in promotion, as well. You need to be promoted past O-3 (Captain in AF, Army, Marines; Lt in Navy) to complete a military career. O-4 is the first step where promotion isn't so automatic and Academy grad/ROTC grad could be a deciding factor (of course, if it gets to that point, then you're probably not having such an illustrious career, anyway, but it can still be traumatic for some folks that are definitely competent, but just not making the cut).

It also seems to make a big difference in performance for the lower ranks (which may be why so many can't get promoted past Captain). In general, performance of junior officers seems to go:

1) Prior enlisted (there's no substitute for experience and it's probably not even fair to compare a 30-year-old to a 23-year-old)
2) Academy grad (generally top-notch, even if inexperienced)
3) ROTC grad (liberal arts ROTC grads are particularly worthless - the only reason half these folks even want to stay in is because they eventually realize no one is going to hire an anthropology major)
4) Citadel grad (these guys might fit in in the Army, but they scare people in the AF)

By time an officer makes Major, any differences due to where they went to school pretty much disappear (the exception being Citadel grads - they stay scary their entire career). A Major that was a ROTC grad is pretty much indistinguishable from a Major that was an academy grad.

 

[MotoH]

Also, to add to what has already been said.

There are already spots reserved for certain careers if you go to AF Academy. (Pilots for sure) What this means is you have a much higher chance of actually getting the job/training you want/need right out of Academy than if you were an ROTC grad. Basically the Air Force sets aside spots in training for students who have recently graduated from the Academy.

 

[cronxeh]

Why would anyone want to be a pilot?? The concept of a manned aircraft is bound to be phased out in your career, do you really want to build yourself up for a disappointment? Try getting into the Air Force's astronaut program or command and control, or even satellite communications. Refer to http://usmilitary.about.com/od/officerjobs/a/13xx.htm"

Besides, a pilot is not getting trained for a masters in any engineering or science programs at the Air Force Institute of Technology. If you want to get a free Masters and/or a PhD, AFIT is a great school. And after you retire from the active service, you get free health insurance for life from the Veterans Affairs hospitals, not to mention that you are a lot more likely to be hired for any city/state/federal position with prior military service.

 

[BobG]

Why would anyone want to be a pilot?? The concept of a manned aircraft is bound to be phased out in your career, do you really want to build yourself up for a disappointment?

This probably has to be true. The problem is that the Air Force is run by pilots that see UAVs as almost a personal affront, but it's also undeniable that UAVs, long range cruise missiles, etc are making pilots a lot less significant, if not completely obsolete.

And after you retire from the active service, you get free health insurance for life from the Veterans Affairs hospitals, not to mention that you are a lot more likely to be hired for any city/state/federal position with prior military service.

Not true, unfortunately. Retirees get health care insurance for life from Tricare for $460/year for a family or $230/year for an individual. None the less, it's cheap enough I like to mention it on the dating site I use (sugardaddy.com). (It's tough to impress those 43-year-old gold diggers )

 

[Proton Soup]

Can someone link me to the nuclear navy program you guys are talking about?

just ace the ASVAB and they will contact you. well, except for that part of the test that measures clerical skills, that didn't seem to factor in.

 

[Invyz]

I'm almost positive I failed the part that had Car parts, construction, etc. on it. But the academic side was almost too simple.

 

[Proton Soup]

I'm almost positive I failed the part that had Car parts, construction, etc. on it. But the academic side was almost too simple.

um, yeah, about that... they train guys to actually work and live on the boats. the practical knowledge is a necessity.

 

[MotoH]

I do not see pilots being completely phased out at any point in time in the near future in air to air combat. A human brings things to the table that a machine can't think about. Nothing will be able to beat sitting in the actual cockpit and reacting to the situation.

Flying a predator is the one job every single pilot absolutely hates, every person that I have talked to and have heard from all say the same thing. "Why would I want to sit in a room for 8 hours flying a model airplane?"

I believe taking the human fully out of the cockpit really isn't the best idea. For dropping a 2000 pound JDAM on some hajji's head, well a computer can do that, but it really takes all the fun out of it.

 

[cronxeh]

I do not see pilots being completely phased out at any point in time in the near future in air to air combat. A human brings things to the table that a machine can't think about. Nothing will be able to beat sitting in the actual cockpit and reacting to the situation.

Flying a predator is the one job every single pilot absolutely hates, every person that I have talked to and have heard from all say the same thing. "Why would I want to sit in a room for 8 hours flying a model airplane?"

I believe taking the human fully out of the cockpit really isn't the best idea. For dropping a 2000 pound JDAM on some hajji's head, well a computer can do that, but it really takes all the fun out of it.

Killing is fun? What are you insane. The reason why pilots will be taken out from the airplanes is because the next best flying fighter jet would have to compete on Mach levels with maneuvers and agility that no human can withstand. The pilots already don't actually 'fly' the plane - the airplane is flown by wire and controlled by computer, without which this brick will simply fall out of the sky. The human pilot is not reliable. They pass out, get wounded and die. You waste fuel carrying their weight. You can't send them on suicide missions.

 

[BobG]

I do not see pilots being completely phased out at any point in time in the near future in air to air combat. A human brings things to the table that a machine can't think about. Nothing will be able to beat sitting in the actual cockpit and reacting to the situation.

Flying a predator is the one job every single pilot absolutely hates, every person that I have talked to and have heard from all say the same thing. "Why would I want to sit in a room for 8 hours flying a model airplane?"

I believe taking the human fully out of the cockpit really isn't the best idea. For dropping a 2000 pound JDAM on some hajji's head, well a computer can do that, but it really takes all the fun out of it.

Don't care how good your air force is, dismantling a sophisticated enemy's integrated air defense system with manned aircraft is going to cost lives, planes, and you'll get to see a few battered pilots paraded on TV for your enemy's propoganda purposes.

Worse yet (if you're one of the pilots picked to dismantle the enemy's IADS), all of the generals will be enthusiastically encouraging the press and the public to laugh at the enemy's ineptness once the I has been taken out of the IADS. The poor guys actually had to take out the integrated part and got shot down doing it look like fools.

Plus, as someone else mentioned, you make some incredibly capable aircraft if a human doesn't have to maintain consciousness during the maneuvers.

 

[turbo]

Plus, as someone else mentioned, you make some incredibly capable aircraft if a human doesn't have to maintain consciousness during the maneuvers.

Not to mention, very versatile. Without the weight of a pilot, support systems, defensive systems, and on-board human interface gear needed for manned aircraft, drones can be very light and efficient and can stay aloft for a very long time looking for targets of opportunity.

 

[cronxeh]

Not to mention, very versatile. Without the weight of a pilot, support systems, defensive systems, and on-board human interface gear needed for manned aircraft, drones can be very light and efficient and can stay aloft for a very long time looking for targets of opportunity.

What really pisses me off is this fear of those planes going rogue or being hacked into somehow. We can build them with encrypted control channels that could not be hacked into in a million years. We have the technology to build a stealth fighter jet/bomber plane that will not become obsolete in next 50 years. The only upgrades would be to computer systems, mechanical engines, and energy source

 

[dotman]

What really pisses me off is this fear of those planes going rogue or being hacked into somehow. We can build them with encrypted control channels that could not be hacked into in a million years. We have the technology to build a stealth fighter jet/bomber plane that will not become obsolete in next 50 years. The only upgrades would be to computer systems, mechanical engines, and energy source

In fact, this is a very real concern. Recall this recent news:

http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/12/17/drone.video.hacked/index.html"

They stopped using the encryption because it wasn't feasible for their operation. The issue is that even if they make it feasible, you are still open to a variety of electronic attacks against your base of operation, your communication network, or any place in between. It is argueably easier to shut down a U.S. military communication channel than it is to shoot down one of it's fighter planes.

If Shiite militants can figure out how to intercept U.S. military feeds, imagine what full fledged military and intelligence agencies can do (think: China, Russia).

You can argue that, well, they should have used encryption, but the fact is they weren't, and this was during a wartime military operation. The point is that there are numerous holes in the system, some known, some not, and it is a very real concern. Your predators on the other side of the world are about useless if your communication satellites are shot down or disrupted.

 

[BobG]

In fact, this is a very real concern. Recall this recent news:

http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/12/17/drone.video.hacked/index.html"

They stopped using the encryption because it wasn't feasible for their operation. The issue is that even if they make it feasible, you are still open to a variety of electronic attacks against your base of operation, your communication network, or any place in between. It is argueably easier to shut down a U.S. military communication channel than it is to shoot down one of it's fighter planes.

If Shiite militants can figure out how to intercept U.S. military feeds, imagine what full fledged military and intelligence agencies can do (think: China, Russia).

You can argue that, well, they should have used encryption, but the fact is they weren't, and this was during a wartime military operation. The point is that there are numerous holes in the system, some known, some not, and it is a very real concern. Your predators on the other side of the world are about useless if your communication satellites are shot down or disrupted.

This would be more similar to receiving free pirated satellite TV signals than to stealing a television satellite or to shutting down a TV signal. In this case, all full fledged military and intelligence agencies needed to learn how to do was have someone tell the name of the company that sold the equipment and software.

In other words, the enemy isn't going to prevent the US from getting the info we want. The question is whether we care if the enemy gets it, too. And there often is a good reason you wouldn't want the enemy to know how much you know or don't know about them.

The encryption isn't unfeasible in a general sense, but it might be for a specific situation. It's expensive and, sometimes more importantly, it limits distribution of info. If it's encrypted, the only way to receive the data is to have decryption equipment. It's conceivable that there's enough people receiving the data that the cost of all that decryption gear is more than exclusivity is worth - especially in multi-national military operations where you'd rather let the enemy receive the data you're receiving than to share your crypto with an allied nation. In today's military operations where, more and more, you have to work with military from allied nations, if it's classified, it's worthless to the warfighter. (In fact, this was a major obstacle in getting satellite reconnaissance info to theater level commanders at one time - with some compromises having to be made on both ends - classification levels being lowered and theater commanders having to accept some of the security restrictions that went with the data).

So, what you're commenting about is part of the ongoing problem of how to deal with classified info in a multi-national environment more than a problem specific to UAVs.

 

[cronxeh]

In fact, this is a very real concern. Recall this recent news:

http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/12/17/drone.video.hacked/index.html"

The U.S. official, who asked not to be identified because he was not authorized to discuss the information

Howcome we don't have some CIA agent just execute those 'US officials'? They are traitors and have no business being in the loop if they spill the beans to the media. There is a reason why we have sensitive, classified, secret and top secret designations.

 

[MotoH]

You all make very great points about how Unmanned is superior to manned flight. And I do agree with most of them but, you can't match human wit and ingenuity with a computer during a dogfight. There is a lot going on that can't really be thought up by a computer.

 

[cronxeh]

You all make very great points about how Unmanned is superior to manned flight. And I do agree with most of them but, you can't match human wit and ingenuity with a computer during a dogfight. There is a lot going on that can't really be thought up by a computer.

Ask yourself this question.. what is the point of a 'dogfight'. If you can destroy an enemy aircraft from 70 mile range, and without any consequences to your own unmanned aircraft, why would you risk a pilot's life to do it from few hundred feet away?

 

[turbo]

You all make very great points about how Unmanned is superior to manned flight. And I do agree with most of them but, you can't match human wit and ingenuity with a computer during a dogfight. There is a lot going on that can't really be thought up by a computer.

There are still humans operating the drones, and they can take risks that pilots in manned aircraft could not. A properly-designed drone can execute maneuvers that no manned aircraft could without blacking out or even killing its pilot. Computers don't operate drones - they are interfaces for humans to interact with and operate the drones.

 

[dotman]

The U.S. official, who asked not to be identified because he was not authorized to discuss the information

Howcome we don't have some CIA agent just execute those 'US officials'? They are traitors and have no business being in the loop if they spill the beans to the media. There is a reason why we have sensitive, classified, secret and top secret designations.

Not being 'authorized to discuss the information' does not mean the information was classified. It simply means that the official is not in the public relations department, and is not normally tasked with speaking to the media, or supposed to relate the department's message to the people.

People who disclose classified information are investigated and prosecuted by the FBI. This is very rare. People who disclose non-classified information they are not supposed to discuss are sometimes investigated by their department, and possibly reprimanded or fired. They are not generally criminally prosecuted.

Finally, the CIA does not operate on American soil (legally, at least). They are not assassins who kill Americans. They are talented individuals who work their hardest to protect us from terrorist threats abroad, and we owe them a lot.

I'm sure many of them would find your statement horribly offensive.

 

[cronxeh]

Finally, the CIA does not operate on American soil (legally, at least). They are not assassins who kill Americans. They are talented individuals who work their hardest to protect us from terrorist threats abroad, and we owe them a lot.

I'm sure many of them would find your statement horribly offensive.

I was not suggesting there be an investigation. I simply suggested the traitors get their due by people who do these things already to terrorists. We are at war, and no 'US official' has any business running their mouth to the media - it does not benefit them, and it does not benefit the public

 

[Proton Soup]

Howcome we don't have some CIA agent just execute those 'US officials'? They are traitors and have no business being in the loop if they spill the beans to the media. There is a reason why we have sensitive, classified, secret and top secret designations.

it's probably just COTS stuff, anyway. as soon as one gets shot down and salvaged, the whole thing would be figured out in a week.

 

[MotoH]

it's probably just COTS stuff, anyway. as soon as one gets shot down and salvaged, the whole thing would be figured out in a week.

The only UAV's that are even remotely in harms way at the moment are the MQ-1 predators who have attached hellfire missiles, and their operating altitude is around 28,000 feet. I am pretty sure the combat that is currently going on, and will continue to go on, IE insurgency does not have the technology to knock any of these suckers out of the sky.

If we were to go up against an actual country that had SAM batteries or other AA installments there would just have to be a jammer sent up to scramble the radar signal, or with the advancements in stealth, we could make a UAV have similar characteristics to the F117 nighthawk with the radar absorbing paint and the geometric body panels. This combined with how small the actual UAVs are would be nearly no radio signal at all, since if I remember correctly the radar signature of the F117 is like the size of a tennis racket.

 

[Proton Soup]

The only UAV's that are even remotely in harms way at the moment are the MQ-1 predators who have attached hellfire missiles, and their operating altitude is around 28,000 feet. I am pretty sure the combat that is currently going on, and will continue to go on, IE insurgency does not have the technology to knock any of these suckers out of the sky.

If we were to go up against an actual country that had SAM batteries or other AA installments there would just have to be a jammer sent up to scramble the radar signal, or with the advancements in stealth, we could make a UAV have similar characteristics to the F117 nighthawk with the radar absorbing paint and the geometric body panels. This combined with how small the actual UAVs are would be nearly no radio signal at all, since if I remember correctly the radar signature of the F117 is like the size of a tennis racket.

yeah, just a bunch of bumpkins there. it's not like any other governments might have an interest in trade here.

 

[MotoH]

all of our supposed "enemies" that are not insurgent oriented already have UAVs, which are capable of anything the United States UAVs can do. North Korea has UAVs from Europe for example.