- #1
peterbb
- 15
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- TL;DR Summary
- A study published by Garret Moddel seemed to show that electrical energy can be extracted from what seems to be the quantum vacuum and produce steady current. Is it possible to simplify his model through a deeper understanding of the Casimir Effect. What kind of physics is really creating this force?
(note to mod: I changed the journal to a more reputable one that should fit the rules - please check if it's approved for you - thanks!)
Really fascinating and interesting experiment. There's a fantastic video for those interested where he goes more in depth comparing different variations of quantum theory and they might explain it, but I'll give the basic overview here as I understand it quickly to give some preface to my question. Please note I am seriously not an expert in this at all and may be totally off. Reference the above picture.
As I understand it, quantum fluctuations were seen as being virtual for the longest time. Yet, the Casimir effect shows that they do indeed have a real effect. How can something virtual have a real effect? I have been trying to follow the logic of how exactly the mechanism of this works. How is something virtual "translated" into a real effect?
Is it possible that it isn't virtual at all? Maybe the force is symmetrical everywhere and in everything in all directions such that the net effect is 0 on everything from a practical perspective, and so we just call it virtual? Since in nature it's incredibly rare for quantum fluctuation asymmetry to be created spontaneously, we just assume it's virtual? If two people push on a box from both sides, they equalise it and so there is net 0 effect. Does that make their pushing virtual? I would say not.
Nevertheless, I wonder whether that's actually the case. Is it possible that quantum fluctuation photons are actually real photons?
If this were true, then we could create the following experiment. Basically we remove altogether the insulator and metal at the bottom. Now we have just a casimir cavity except using an insulator instead of a vacuum. The difference is, in this casimir cavity, the base plate is extremely thin. Let's say 20nm. This way anything above 20nm wavelength won't be created within it, therefore creating asymmetry. I haven't looked it up, but is it possible what I'm about to say has never been observed because the parallel plates were always quite big?
If the conductor is too thick, there won't be asymmetry in the high-energy photon range. But if it's 20mm, maybe these photons would excite electrons in the conductor via the photoelectric effect. But where would the electrons go? They would need an opposite charge to create current. Maybe, maybe, nobody ever bothered to create something like this, let alone measure it. Because how do we measure it? There's no circuit like there is in Garret's experiment.
What if we can use a P-N junction with two of these to create current similar to how solar panels work:
I'm 99% sure this is just fantasy and represents my very very little knowledge on the subject. But the thing for me is that I don't really know why it won't work, because I don't understand how the casimir force is actually being created. And explanations I've found have left me unsatisfied. What explains Moddel's findings while still being aligned with the idea of it being virtual? The question ultimately for me is what exactly is pushing the conductors together? If photons are real enough to create current in Moddel's experiment, real enough to push two plates together, yet still not real, what would prevent them from creating current in this one?
To anyone with the patience to give this some thought and reply - thank you!
Preface
Some of you may know this but a little while ago Garret Moddel, a professor at Boulder Colorado University, published a paper that described an experiment he did where he was able to use a combination of a Casimir cavity and an extremely thin conductor-insulator-conductor combination to generate a steady supply of current, potentially from the quantum vacuum. He also seems to have accounted for a lot of potential errors that may have led to mis-readings.Really fascinating and interesting experiment. There's a fantastic video for those interested where he goes more in depth comparing different variations of quantum theory and they might explain it, but I'll give the basic overview here as I understand it quickly to give some preface to my question. Please note I am seriously not an expert in this at all and may be totally off. Reference the above picture.
- The Casimir Cavity/Optical Cavity (~30nm thick) essentially blocks all wavelengths > 30nm in the transparent dielectric (I know it's about harmonic resonance but let's just keep it simple for now).
- The upper electrode (palladium) is 2nm thick. The insulator below is also 2nm thick.
- According to Heisenberg's uncertainty principle, high energy quantum fluctuations in the form of photons can exist for a very short time. A particle travelling at the speed of light can exist therefore exist for a very small distance (in this case, 2nm is enough distance for a UV photon to cross, I believe - I might be off about this exactly).
- The upper electrode cannot support >30nm wavelengths due to the casimir cavity on top of it blocking them from coming through from above. As well, the electrode is too thin for them to appear within the conductor. Whereas the base electrode can create them because it's quite a bit thicker. This creates asymmetry across the insulator as more spectrum can be created in the base electrode versus the upper electrode.
- Wavelengths > 30nm "cross" the insulator from the base electrode and exciting electrons in the upper electrode.
- Assuming Moddel (if I understand correctly) puts forth this idea whereby a virtual photon can become real under a certain condition (related to frustrated total internal reflection), to account for the possibility that quantum fluctuations are virtual. Essentially, when a real photon is reflected internally, there is a virtual photon probability wave that emanates on the other side of the point of reflection, which goes outward and can collapse where it meets another thicker medium. This probability wave expands (I think similar to quantum tunnelling), and can be converted into a real photon. So his idea is that this "conversion" process might be happening at the boundary of the insulator and the upper electrode, where virtual quantum fluctuations are being "converted" to real photons.
- All of this creates an electrical circuit via the photoelectric effect.
My question, topic of discussion:
So as far as I know, and I know very little, the casimir effect is essentially caused by the "pressure" of quantum fluctuation. This is all I can really find out about it without going really deep into the math which is beyond me (I am practicing!). But what exactly is pressure? I really tried to dig this up but couldn't really get to the bottom of it. In classical physics pressure is excitation of atoms and molecules smashing against something. Obviously classical physics doesn't really translate into the quantum world generally. But what is the equivalent explanation for virtual particles creating real effects?As I understand it, quantum fluctuations were seen as being virtual for the longest time. Yet, the Casimir effect shows that they do indeed have a real effect. How can something virtual have a real effect? I have been trying to follow the logic of how exactly the mechanism of this works. How is something virtual "translated" into a real effect?
Is it possible that it isn't virtual at all? Maybe the force is symmetrical everywhere and in everything in all directions such that the net effect is 0 on everything from a practical perspective, and so we just call it virtual? Since in nature it's incredibly rare for quantum fluctuation asymmetry to be created spontaneously, we just assume it's virtual? If two people push on a box from both sides, they equalise it and so there is net 0 effect. Does that make their pushing virtual? I would say not.
Nevertheless, I wonder whether that's actually the case. Is it possible that quantum fluctuation photons are actually real photons?
If this were true, then we could create the following experiment. Basically we remove altogether the insulator and metal at the bottom. Now we have just a casimir cavity except using an insulator instead of a vacuum. The difference is, in this casimir cavity, the base plate is extremely thin. Let's say 20nm. This way anything above 20nm wavelength won't be created within it, therefore creating asymmetry. I haven't looked it up, but is it possible what I'm about to say has never been observed because the parallel plates were always quite big?
If the conductor is too thick, there won't be asymmetry in the high-energy photon range. But if it's 20mm, maybe these photons would excite electrons in the conductor via the photoelectric effect. But where would the electrons go? They would need an opposite charge to create current. Maybe, maybe, nobody ever bothered to create something like this, let alone measure it. Because how do we measure it? There's no circuit like there is in Garret's experiment.
What if we can use a P-N junction with two of these to create current similar to how solar panels work:
I'm 99% sure this is just fantasy and represents my very very little knowledge on the subject. But the thing for me is that I don't really know why it won't work, because I don't understand how the casimir force is actually being created. And explanations I've found have left me unsatisfied. What explains Moddel's findings while still being aligned with the idea of it being virtual? The question ultimately for me is what exactly is pushing the conductors together? If photons are real enough to create current in Moddel's experiment, real enough to push two plates together, yet still not real, what would prevent them from creating current in this one?
To anyone with the patience to give this some thought and reply - thank you!