Infinite Frequencies & Extraterrestrial Signals: What Are We Missing?

[Spockishere]

TL;DR Summary

When i mean what frequencies i mean every single one of them. I know that the electromagnetic spectrum contains radiation types that can be seen by some of our instruments, but what about the frequency 10^82928hz for example. There could be an infinite amount of "spacey stuff" out there, that we just can't see.

And if there are an infinite amount of frequencies, doesn't that mean that an extraterrestrial civilization could be reaching out without us being able to receive their signals. And even if we did receive their signals, how would we understand their form of communication? What if they communicate via banana peels being hidden in an image, counting up the banana peels divided by the amount of stars converted in the chinese alphabet.

Don't interpret the question exactly as it is written. Look at the question and answer it with something you had to think about even if it doesn't precisely equate to the question. So this is just me asking you for your thoughts on the amount of frequencies, signals from space, ect. This is a pretty chaotic and not well explained question/description sorry for that haha.

 

[PeterDonis]

There could be an infinite amount of "spacey stuff" out there, that we just can't see.

No, there couldn't, because radiation has energy, and that energy has gravitational effects that we would detect if it were present. There cannot be any significant energy density of radiation in the universe that we don't know about.

if there are an infinite amount of frequencies

Mathematically there are, but that doesn't mean there is any physical mechanism that can produce all of them.

doesn't that mean that an extraterrestrial civilization could be reaching out without us being able to receive their signals.

This is of course possible but it's pointless to speculate about since if we can't receive their signals, we have no way of knowing they are there.

And even if we did receive their signals, how would we understand their form of communication?

This question is way off topic for this forum.

What if they communicate via banana peels being hidden in an image, counting up the banana peels divided by the amount of stars converted in the chinese alphabet.

This is pointless speculation.

 

[PeroK]

The electromagnetic spectrum is given here. Note that X-rays and gamma rays that are dangerous in large quantities have frequencies of up to $3 \times 10^{20} \ Hz$.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_spectrum

 

[Spockishere]

No, there couldn't, because radiation has energy, and that energy has gravitational effects that we would detect if it were present. There cannot be any significant energy density of radiation in the universe that we don't know about.Mathematically there are, but that doesn't mean there is any physical mechanism that can produce all of them.This is of course possible but it's pointless to speculate about since if we can't receive their signals, we have no way of knowing they are there.This question is way off topic for this forum.This is pointless speculation.

You seem very confident about the fact that the instruments that scientists use can detect every kind of gravitational effect. What if the gravitational effects of the "spacey stuff" is too small for it to have a "significant energy density'? If we look at the frequency 10^-100000 would the energy density be significant enough for us to know about it? I didn't phrase the question right though so sorry that's on me.

Your second answer just speaks for itself, it also doesn't mean that there isn't any physical mechanism that can produce them all. This wasn't even a question but thanks for your answer!

That's the point isn't it if we don't know they're out there, why not speculate about how they would be able to contact us so scientists can try to devise a system that helps with receiving signals on a broader scale.

The question you called way of topic, was just a follow up question on which i would like to hear people's opinions. I'm aware of this question being off topic.

It was just pointless speculation that was intended as a kind of joke, but it wasn't really funny was it. My apologies.

 

[Spockishere]

The electromagnetic spectrum is given here. Note that X-rays and gamma rays that are dangerous in large quantities have frequencies of up to $3 \times 10^{20} \ Hz$.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_spectrum

Thanks for your answer PeroK, I'm aware of the electromagnetic spectrum. I was just trying to hear people's thoughts on anything beyond the spectrum that we have at the moment.

 

[PeroK]

Thanks for your answer PeroK, I'm aware of the electromagnetic spectrum. I was just trying to hear people's thoughts on anything beyond the spectrum that we have at the moment.

Communication tends to use waves from the other (long-wave, low energy) end of the spectrum.

 

[Delta2]

Summary: When i mean what frequencies i mean every single one of them. I know that the electromagnetic spectrum contains radiation types that can be seen by some of our instruments, but what about the frequency 10^82928hz for example. There could be an infinite amount of "spacey stuff" out there, that we just can't see.

Don't interpret the question exactly as it is written. Look at the question and answer it with something you had to think about even if it doesn't precisely equate to the question.

I really liked this statement, that's why you received a like from me.

Well we can't be sure what is happening in monster frequencies like $10^{82928}$, because we can't experimentally test it by our current technology, but our current theory say that these monster frequencies have sever gravitational effects which we would see(remember the EM field, photons, interact with gravity at very high frequencies, that is General Relativity).

On the other end very low frequencies like $10^{-100000}$ don't have pronounced gravitational effects but we can't detect them either cause they pretty much look like static fields.

 

[Spockishere]

No, there couldn't, because radiation has energy, and that energy has gravitational effects that we would detect if it were present. There cannot be any significant energy density of radiation in the universe that we don't know about.Mathematically there are, but that doesn't mean there is any physical mechanism that can produce all of them.This is of course possible but it's pointless to speculate about since if we can't receive their signals, we have no way of knowing they are there.This question is way off topic for this forum.This is pointless speculation.

You seem very confident about the fact that the instruments that scientists use can detect every kind of gravitational effect. What if the gravitational effects are too small or missed, because of a certain phenomena.

I really liked this statement, that's why you received a like from me.

Well we can't be sure what is happening in monster frequencies like $10^{82928}$, because we can't experimentally test it by our current technology, but our current theory say that these monster frequencies have sever gravitational effects which we would see(remember the EM field, photons, interact with gravity at very high frequencies, that is General Relativity).

On the other end very low frequencies like $10^{-100000}$ don't have pronounced gravitational effects but we can't detect them either cause they pretty much look like static fields.

Thanks for the like and your answer. This was pretty much what i was looking for when i made that statement thanks haha!

 

[DaveC426913]

What if the gravitational effects are too small or missed, because of a certain phenomena.

Then they're missed. We can only look for what we can detect. And we can only detect what our technology is capable of.

I'm not sure if perhaps your question is more about: "Are there places we haven't thought of looking?"

Well, thoughts are cheap. Astro sensor projects are not. We have to be judicious with our budget and effort, and concentrate on areas where we think we have the best chance of success.

Do you have any ideas about where our best chances of success might be?

 

[PeterDonis]

What if the gravitational effects of the "spacey stuff" is too small for it to have a "significant energy density'?

Then there won't be "an infinite amount of spacey stuff out there that we just can't see". There could be a very, very tiny amount of it that we can't see. But when you get to high enough frequencies, such as the huge numbers you are throwing around, there is no such thing as "a very, very tiny amount" any more, because even a single photon of such a frequency would have a large enough energy that we would detect its effects if they were there.

For some context, I think the highest energy gamma ray burst photons we have detected are about $10^{12}$ eV, which corresponds to a frequency of about $10^{26}$.

Your second answer just speaks for itself, it also doesn't mean that there isn't any physical mechanism that can produce them all.

My point was that you can't just wave your hands and talk about EM radiation with outlandish frequencies, without having some idea of what physical mechanism could produce them. See above for the highest EM radiation frequency that any physical mechanism we know of can produce. Your wild speculations go way, way beyond that.

if we don't know they're out there, why not speculate about how they would be able to contact us so scientists can try to devise a system that helps with receiving signals on a broader scale.

Scientists have spent decades trying to work out possible ways that aliens might be sending signals to us. You might want to take some time to learn about all that before speculating on your own.

The question you called way of topic, was just a follow up question on which i would like to hear people's opinions. I'm aware of this question being off topic.

Then you should be aware that "off topic" does not mean "hope someone will answer it anyway". It means off topic, as in not suitable for discussion here. This forum is not for discussing random opinions of people on random questions. It's for helping people to understand mainstream science.

 

[Spockishere]

Then they're missed. We can only look for what we can detect. And we can only detect what our technology is capable of.

I'm not sure if perhaps your question is more about: "Are there places we haven't thought of looking?"

Well, thoughts are cheap. Astro sensor projects are not. We have to be judicious with our budget and effort, and concentrate on areas where we think we have the best chance of success.

Do you have any ideas about where our best chances of success might be?

Thank you for your answer! I don't really have an idea about that, because I'm not sure as to whether speculation is bannable.

 

[FactChecker]

Physics limits the frequencies of interest. Remember that the higher the frequency, the more directional it is and the more easily it is blocked by dust. So intelligent life forms would not want to send signals at too high a frequency. One of the advantages of the James Web telescope is that it is designed for low frequency, infrared light. That will allow us to see a lot of detail through the dust in space that we can not see in the visible light spectrum. Also, remember that the higher the frequency, the more energy it contains. So, for a certain amplitude, that would limit the frequency that could be generated by a lot of things.

 

[Vanadium 50]

whether speculation is bannable.

It's certainly against the rules.

I was just trying to hear people's thoughts on anything beyond the spectrum

Sorry, that's just nonsense. There is no EM radiation that's not part of the EM spectrum. (Or gravitational radiation that's not part of the gravitational spectrum etc...)

EM radiation has been observed from (more or less) 10¹ Hz.to 10³⁴ Hz.

 

[PeterDonis]

i'm not sure as to whether speculation is bannable.

Personal speculation is off limits. It can get you a warning, and enough warnings can get you a ban.

 

[romsofia]

There could be an infinite amount of "spacey stuff" out there, that we just can't see.

In essence, this is a bad starting point because if we can't see or detect it, what's the point of thinking about it? Modern science is based on this principle: I can take your theory and predictions and put it to a test and see if it's wrong. I can't say you're correct, I can just say it wasn't wrong.

If you tell me what that I can't see it, that's fine, I can't see a lot of physical phenomena, but what should the spacey stuff do, where can I see its' effects, can I reproduce the effects? Now you claim that potentially, bananas, chinese alphabets and something with stars are being used to communicate. Cool, this is "better", now i can take a banana and write chinese letters on it, divide some star quantity, and if i don't see your claims being produced, then I have shown your predictions were not met given your set up, and I falsified your idea. I would get an easy paper out of it too, but alas, your claim would never get anywhere since it isn't founded in any logic. This is why lab components are so important when doing science, because you learn how to test many different hypotheses.

Now, this point is important because if your idea or theory isn't falsifiable, then you can always move the end result. Your theory must be falsifiable if you want to do science! We have to be able, in principle, to test your predictions, and if you tell us, "Well, you just can't see it, and you can't detect it otherwise but it's there" then anything is possible, and you fall into the realm of pseudoscience. We all speculate (yes, even peterdonis and vanadium 50 do it, they are human!), but keep your more outlandish ideas to yourself/friends because it isn't productive on a societal level to spend time disproving them.

Since you seem young, I would urge you to learn more about this philosophy, and look into Karl Popper.

 

[Delta2]

@PeterDonis we can't be completely sure what is happening at monster frequencies of the EM field and because human technology isn't capable of utilizing these frequencies it doesn't mean an alien civilization can't do that either. There are speculations in mainstream human science too that a kind of new physics arise at high energies-high frequencies.

 

[Drakkith]

@PeterDonis we can't be completely sure what is happening at monster frequencies of the EM field and because human technology isn't capable of utilizing these frequencies it doesn't mean an alien civilization can't do that either. There are speculations in mainstream human science too that a kind of new physics arise at high energies-high frequencies.

The point Peter and others are trying to make is that the amount of absurdly high frequency radiation (AHF?) is strictly limited by the energy available to create them and the mechanisms that would use that energy to create them. One can speculate all day about radiation in the 10^(insert large number) range, but a single photon at even 10^100 Hz has 10^66 joules of energy, or 22 orders of magnitude more energy than a supernova.

This is also:

• 10^22 foes.
• 10^19 times more energy that the entire rest-mass energy of the Sun.
• 10^7 times more energy that the entire rest-mass energy of the Milky Way Galaxy.
• 25,000 times more energy than the rest-mass energy of the Virgo Supercluster.
• Enough energy that 1,000 photons would contain the same energy as the estimated total mass-energy of the observable universe.

Assuming I'm not grossly off with my math, I'm quite certain that an EM wave with a frequency anywhere close to 10^100 Hz, or higher, doesn't exist.

I know that the electromagnetic spectrum contains radiation types that can be seen by some of our instruments, but what about the frequency 10^82928hz for example. There could be an infinite amount of "spacey stuff" out there, that we just can't see.

Since we don't see entire galaxy clusters being annihilated to liberate their mass-energy, we can confidently say the limit of possible frequencies for EM radiation is somewhere below 10^100 Hz at this point in the evolution of the universe. Far, far below.

 

[Delta2]

Hmmm, @Drakkith yes thanks, good point that with the enormous amount of energy needed.

Either we would have to assume that at these AHF(!?!) the relation $E=hf$ doesn't hold, or the alien civilization has discover a process of multiplying energy, which would mean conservation of energy wouldn't hold. Both highly unlikely at least in terms of today's mainstream science.

 

[berkeman]

The OP's question has been largely answered, and this thread is veering into speculation territory, so it is closed for now.