Is a Low CGPA a Deal Breaker for Grad School Admissions?

[Hassan Raza]

Hi!
I want to apply in Grad schools in USA as an international Student. But my cgpa is around 2.69. Most of the graduate school require at least 3.0. But there are some that do not have any minimum cgpa requirement on their website. But people say it's very difficult to get admission. I've not gave GRE as of now. But I'm planning to.
So my question is should I give GRE regardless most of the schools consider your application without GRE. or should I not waste my money on GRE if I dont have any chance of getting admission with this CGPA?

I can only study with fully funded opportunities like TA/RA etc, cannot afford otherwise.

Willing to apply in Master or PhD.

• I've Undergraduate Degree in Physics (2.69 cgpa).
• I've done some (research) Internships in related fields.
• Have done FYP during my Bachelor's Study in Astroparticle Physics.
• Multiple Volunteer works.

 

[Frabjous]

What were your grades in junior/senior level Mechanics, E&M and QM?

 

[Hassan Raza]

What were your grades in junior/senior level Mechanics, E&M and QM?

Mechanics B+, Classical Mechanics B, Electricity and Magnetism B+, Electrodynamics 1 and 2 B, QM1 D+ and QM2 C. I improved some subjects by repeating.

 

[Frabjous]

Mechanics B+, Classical Mechanics B, Electricity and Magnetism B+, Electrodynamics 1 and 2 B, QM1 D+ and QM2 C. I improved some subjects by repeating.

I think that even if you found a school, the odds of you being successful there would be small.

 

[Choppy]

Your GPA doesn't look all that promising I'm afraid.

Even when physics graduate program web pages don't specifically list a minimum GPA, that doesn't mean that its not there. Often that cut off is determined by the faculty of gradate studies. And remember it's a competitive process too, so even if you do qualify, everyone with a 4.0 down to a 2.7 would be in line ahead of you.

While the GRE can be a mitigator, I don't think I've ever seen it make a student with a 2.69 GPA competitive with students north of 3.3... even if they do really well on it... which is a big feat for someone who struggled through their studies.

But let's say you do manage to find a school that will admit you. What happens when you end up with a D+ in graduate QM? In most graduate schools that's considered a fail. And you'll be in a pool with students who've all been really successful as undergraduate students.

It might be time to start asking some deep questions about why you want to do this. What other skills have you picked up in your undergraduate studies? What have you really enjoyed? Where do your passions lie? Some people get caught in the trap of thinking that the only option after undergraduate physics is graduate school. But a lot of people who may not have been that successful as undergrads go on to have really successful careers once they discover their groove.

 

[Vanadium 50]

I don't disagree with what's been written. But let's turn it around: seats in graduate school are limited, and schools have no problem filling them. Why should they take you and not take someone with a higher GPA from a stronger undergraduate program? Perhaps an application can be crafted around that.

 

[jtbell]

What happens when you end up with a D+ in graduate QM? In most graduate schools that's considered a fail.

When I was in grad school (in the US) 40+ years ago, I had to repeat thermodynamics / statistical mechanics because I got a B- in it, which dragged my GPA below the university's acceptable level for a half-time teaching assistantship.

 

[Hassan Raza]

Your GPA doesn't look all that promising I'm afraid.

Even when physics graduate program web pages don't specifically list a minimum GPA, that doesn't mean that its not there. Often that cut off is determined by the faculty of gradate studies. And remember it's a competitive process too, so even if you do qualify, everyone with a 4.0 down to a 2.7 would be in line ahead of you.

While the GRE can be a mitigator, I don't think I've ever seen it make a student with a 2.69 GPA competitive with students north of 3.3... even if they do really well on it... which is a big feat for someone who struggled through their studies.

But let's say you do manage to find a school that will admit you. What happens when you end up with a D+ in graduate QM? In most graduate schools that's considered a fail. And you'll be in a pool with students who've all been really successful as undergraduate students.

It might be time to start asking some deep questions about why you want to do this. What other skills have you picked up in your undergraduate studies? What have you really enjoyed? Where do your passions lie? Some people get caught in the trap of thinking that the only option after undergraduate physics is graduate school. But a lot of people who may not have been that successful as undergrads go on to have really successful careers once they discover their groove.

Thank you for the response.
Actually, tbh becoming a physicist was the only thing that I wanted to do from my childhood and there is no other option that I can opt for. I really enjoyed studying physics specially Astrophysics and General relativity.

The reason for my low grades was that I didn't study. During my first year, I was able to score average grades with little to no effort. So, during covid my habit of concentrating on classes also decreased due to online classes. And after that I was not able to concentrate on classes and my attention span was too low. I only used to study a week or 2 before exams but as I went to senior years of my bachlor's subjects became too tough to cover in 2 weeks and my grades went down. And even it was hard for me to sit in exam for 3 hours.

But I did an internship where I did really well. Because there was not pressure of exams on me. and I was comfortably studying for myself and my own pleasure.

So these are the things that I think I have potential to do good in master's if I only study hard.

Also, in my country, I can do some teaching jobs after my undergraduate degree, but they're too low-paying. So I have to have a PhD atleast, to earn a good living.

 

[Hassan Raza]

I think that even if you found a school, the odds of you being successful there would be small.

I'm actually right now repeating important undergrad subjects by myself and making my understanding better. I've taken multiple coursera courses.

 

[CrysPhys]

I want to apply in Grad schools in USA as an international Student. ...

I can only study with fully funded opportunities like TA/RA etc, cannot afford otherwise.

Willing to apply in Master or PhD. ...

Others have already addressed the feasibility of your plans. I have nothing new to add there, but here are additional key points.

* In the US, unlike in many other countries, you can apply directly for a physics PhD program with a bachelor's degree. A master's is not needed. And the typical practice is to start a PhD program upon completion of a bachelor's degree.

* In the US, most of the major physics departments don't even allow students to apply for a master's program only (a terminal master's). And it's the major physics departments that are most likely to require large numbers of TAs for their undergrad courses.

* So, if you're seeking a fully-funded grad physics program in the US, aim for applying for direct admission to a PhD program. Hence, base the viability of your application on that, rather than, "I'll apply for a fully-funded terminal master's, wherein I'll undo the damage done in my undergrad years, and prove myself worthy of a PhD program." Usual caveat: some rare exceptions may be available.

* In case you missed it, here is a recent related thread that you should find helpful:

https://www.physicsforums.com/threa...ters-in-theoretical-particle-physics.1055231/

There were also previous threads concerning applying for a terminal master's program in Canada or Europe (countries in which a master's is required before applying for a PhD). I don't know whether those are options for you. And there is the key issue of funding for such programs. Also how viable they are and whether they will help if your ultimate goal is a PhD in the US. See, e.g., https://www.physicsforums.com/threa...-masters-instead-of-phd.1050273/#post-6859351

 

[Choppy]

Actually, tbh becoming a physicist was the only thing that I wanted to do from my childhood and there is no other option that I can opt for.

Sure. I get this. But keep in mind that this is a very narrow focus for your life. Even for people who go on to successfully finish a PhD in physics the odds of obtaining a tenured position as a professor are quite low. And you reach a point where getting that career is not about how much you want it, how hard you work or how intelligent you are. In the pool of applicants for these positions, just about everyone is extremely intelligent, and has worked incredibly hard. The factors that make a difference at that stage can be quite serendipitous.

The reason for my low grades was that I didn't study. During my first year, I was able to score average grades with little to no effort. So, during covid my habit of concentrating on classes also decreased due to online classes. And after that I was not able to concentrate on classes and my attention span was too low. I only used to study a week or 2 before exams but as I went to senior years of my bachlor's subjects became too tough to cover in 2 weeks and my grades went down. And even it was hard for me to sit in exam for 3 hours.

On one hand you're saying that your only option is to become a physicist. But on the other, you're telling us that when you had the opportunity to study physics... you didn't.

For what it's worth, I recognize the pattern here. It happens to a lot of people. In high school you were pretty smart. So long as you paid attention in class, you earned high grades without putting much effort into studying. This leads to some bad habits, and even a fixed mindset about studying. In university this can continue into the first or sometimes even second year. But eventually you start to encounter classes where simply being smart doesn't cut it. You need to study--consistently and in a well-managed manner. Usually the pattern is that the student notices a drop in grades/performance and then either modifies their habits, or gets stuck with sub par grades for the rest of their degree.

I'm sure the pandemic didn't help. A lot of people really struggled with the sudden transition to online classes.

But something else to consider is that in graduate school you're going to have to study even more. If you have trouble sitting through undergraduate exams, what's the plan for challenging your PhD comprehensive exam? Or your candidacy exam?

But I did an internship where I did really well. Because there was not pressure of exams on me. and I was comfortably studying for myself and my own pleasure.

Define "really well." Did you end up as the first author on a publication in a major journal in your field? Did you develop a process that will enable downstream publications and/or grants? Patent a new technology? I'm not trying to say you weren't successful, but in the context of graduate school admissions, remember that most candidates will have had some kind of positive research experience and have decent reference letters to support that. But the metrics for striating these experiences often come down to tangible examples of output.

And sure, when you're studying for your own pleasure things go well. But if you want to make a profession of this, you have to study not just when it feels good.

That said, you might want to think more on why you felt successful in this experience. Was it the specific material you were studying? Was it the long term management of a consistent project? The people you worked with?

 

[Vanadium 50]

When I was in grad school

...I had to walk uphill both ways in the snow to get to to class...

When I was in grad school, the rule was two consecutive quarters with either a quarter or cumulative average below 3.0 and you were shown the door. The way people got caught in this was BBC in quarter one (quarter below 3.0) and BBB in quarter two (quarter OK, cumulative below 3.0).

This was the University, not the Department. They did not like to see C's. that's for sure.

 

[Vanadium 50]

Because there was not pressure of exams

Do you think there will be no exams in grad school? No pressure as a physicist?

 

[Hassan Raza]

Do you think there will be no exams in grad school? No pressure as a physicist?

Yes there will be. I'm currently working on it. cause I had to there is no other option except to study.

 

[Hassan Raza]

For what it's worth, I recognize the pattern here. It happens to a lot of people. In high school you were pretty smart. So long as you paid attention in class, you earned high grades without putting much effort into studying. This leads to some bad habits, and even a fixed mindset about studying. In university this can continue into the first or sometimes even second year. But eventually you start to encounter classes where simply being smart doesn't cut it. You need to study--consistently and in a well-managed manner. Usually the pattern is that the student notices a drop in grades/performance and then either modifies their habits, or gets stuck with sub par grades for the rest of their degree.

That's exactly what happened with me. right now I'm trying to build study habits and work on my weak concepts.

 

[Vanadium 50]

I don;t think we're getting through to you. A PhD in physics costs (tuition plus stipend plus research costs) somewhere between half a million dollars and a million dollars. This is usually covered by multiple sources, but that's what it costs. Your position is "I didn't study when I had the opportunity, but I am ready now - please give me my million". Thta's not going to fly.

Further, grad school is competitive. Mary graduated with a 3.9 from Toronto and has two publications to her name. Why should she be told she can't go to grad school in the US so that there is room for you? You need an answer to this question. Otherwise the graduate admissions committee has an easy and obvious choice.

If it helps to think about numbers,

• About 2000-2500 students are accepted into PhD programs every year
• About 40% of those are international
• (Edit - added the 0 for clarith. Points are tiny) 0.1% of MIT's international graduate students (3 total) are Pakistani. This is a proxy for physics graduate students, but it's STEM dominated, so is probably close. This is a statement about country of citizenship, not of undergraduate education, so a Pakistani with a degree from Oxford appears as a Pakistani student.*
• 1% or less of the admitted students have GPAs below 2.8. Anecdotally, these are underrepresented minorities or other special circumstance students.
• First year grad students are typically supported by teaching assistantships. You can't be - how can you be expected to teach what you don't know (as evidenced by your grades). So you need a fellowship. These are rare - perhaps 5% of entering grad students get one, perhaps even fewer.

That's what you are up against. And there's no point quibbling that 1% should be 2% or 5% should be 4%. There are simply fewer seats available than people who want them, and therefore the process is competitive. A poor GPA from a school with a weak program (and no school in Pakistan has a strong program) is not competitive.

* For decades, higher education was not a priority of the Pakistani government. Now you're paying the price. Unfair? Probably. But it is what it is.

 

[Vanadium 50]

You can be sad if you want. But do you really think the US universities owe you a million-dollar education? Why?

 

[CrysPhys]

While I do not disagree with your argument, I think your numbers are a little high. I would price it from ~$50k to ~$100k per year.

Multiply your numbers X7 and we get a grand total of ~$350K to ~$700K, in the same rough range as what V50 estimated.

 

[CrysPhys]

Actually, tbh becoming a physicist was the only thing that I wanted to do from my childhood and there is no other option that I can opt for. I really enjoyed studying physics specially Astrophysics and General relativity.

So for the many posters here in similar scenarios, the advice I offer is inspired by:

For of all sad words of tongue or pen,
The saddest are these: “It might have been!”

--from Maud Muller by John Greenleaf Whittier. That is, knowing that the odds are not favorable, give it your best shot so you won't look back forlornly with regret because you didn't try. But, as always, have a Plan B ready in the event you don't succeed.