Is Alice's Arithmetic Wrong?

  • Thread starter Euphoriet
  • Start date
In summary, Euphoriet is looking for a solution to a math problem that he has been unable to find a constant answer to, and Moonbear suggests that the answer could be indeterminate.
  • #36
Evo said:
No one brings me chocolate. :cry:

Alright, what can you teach me? :-p
 
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  • #37
SpaceTiger said:
Alright, what can you teach me? :-p
Optical Networking. I know, not as much fun as biology.

Hey, I am a decent portrait artist. I could draw your picture in return for chocolate. :biggrin:
 
  • #38
Evo said:
Optical Networking. I know, not as much fun as biology.

Hey, I am a decent portrait artist. I could draw your picture in return for chocolate. :biggrin:

Both of those things would be acceptable. I don't even know what optical networking is, so I suppose there's a lot to learn. :biggrin:
 
  • #39
SpaceTiger said:
Both of those things would be acceptable. I don't even know what optical networking is, so I suppose there's a lot to learn. :biggrin:
Alrighty Then! :approve:

Bring lots of chocolate...DARK chocolate. :biggrin:

I must go to sleep now. :zzz:
 
  • #40
Evo said:
mmmf, *chomp*, snorf
Now you're <snorfing> as well as <snorting>? Is that a typo, or are you developing an accent?

SpaceTiger said:
Hey! I was saving that for biology lessons!

Bah, now I'll have to settle for learning philosophy or something. :frown:
Not to worry. Moonie always asks for a bribe just in case you're unfamiliar with her reputation, but it certainly isn't necessary.

Evo said:
Of course Moonbear is a *bit* more knowledgeable in that field. :rolleyes:
What's the superlative form of understatement?

Evo said:
No one brings me chocolate. :cry:
Now, now, darling... you know I'd bring you all the chocolate you wanted, but I don't want to give you any ideas. It's poisonous to dogs, you know.
 
  • #41
Evo said:
Hey, biology was one of my strongest subjects. :-p Of course Moonbear is a *bit* more knowledgeable in that field. :rolleyes:

Ok, I didnt eat them all. (puts the leftover chocolate back) :frown:

No one brings me chocolate. :cry:

Hey, who ate my chocolate!
 
  • #42
Hmm I saw the large number of posts and I thought this turned into some deep philosophical discussion about what 0/0 really is. Then I remembered it was GD :smile:

Sorry Euphoriet, guess you will not find a consistant answer here either. I personally think, who cares? Call it whatever you want :smile:
 
  • #43
mattmns said:
Hmm I saw the large number of posts and I thought this turned into some deep philosophical discussion about what 0/0 really is. Then I remembered it was GD :smile:

Sorry Euphoriet, guess you will not find a consistant answer here either. I personally think, who cares? Call it whatever you want :smile:
Well, it's consistant that the thread went off topic. :biggrin:
 
  • #44
What the hell happen to my thread? I left for a while..and come back to this.. hahah I see it's three pages long so I expected a long debate of three pages and come to find a three post response to the actual topic hahaha.
 
  • #45
Euphoriet said:
and come to find a three post response to the actual topic hahaha.
And bloody lucky to get that many despite our best efforts. :biggrin:
 
  • #46
Euphoriet said:
What the hell happen to my thread? I left for a while..and come back to this.. hahah I see it's three pages long so I expected a long debate of three pages and come to find a three post response to the actual topic hahaha.

Oh, sorry. I'm pretty sure I understand well enough now to help add a bit more to the debate on the original topic.

It's indeterminate.

Wait, no, it's undefined.

Um, no, it was right the first time, it's indeterminate.

No, no, no, what was I thinking, it's undefined.

Indeterminate isn't the same as undefined.

Undefined isn't the same as indeterminate.

Saying indeterminate isn't the same as undefined isn't the same as saying undefined isn't the same as indeterminate.

Or, um, it might be.

:rolleyes: Does that help? :biggrin:
 
  • #47
Now wait, according to Space Tiger, 0/0=42 --> 0 = 0 x 42.

Looks okay to me.

oh yes, Dr. Math says
Division by zero is an operation for which you cannot find an answer, so it is disallowed.

:biggrin:

How about illegal? immoral? despicable? contemptible?
 
Last edited:
  • #48
Ivan Seeking said:
How about illegal? immoral? despicable? contemptible?

That's it! Dividing 0 by 0 is immoral. :smile:
 
  • #49
I knew dividing by zero was a sin, I bet it even says it in the bible.
 
  • #50
I think dividing by 0 causes cancer in HP calculators..
 
  • #51
Moonbear said:
That's it! Dividing 0 by 0 is immoral. :smile:
This would've made someone happy ! :wink:

Seriously, division by 0 is not defined in the reals.
 
  • #52
SpaceTiger said:
Fools, all of you.

0/0 = 42

Point, game, match...SpaceTiger.
franznietzsche said:
*sigh*

Really, its almost clichéd by this point.
Not so cliched that anyone knows what it means. Barely anyone even knows this is a Lewis Carroll reference, let alone what the question is (Douglas Addams gives a hint in his book, not the answer).

And if we're voting on it, I say we make division by zero immoral.
 
Last edited:
  • #53
mattmns said:
I knew dividing by zero was a sin, I bet it even says it in the bible.

Which brings up another question... is it a sin to sine?

Does that imply that cosecanting is the way to eternal happiness?

If that is the case... what about the other left out trigonometric functions?
 
  • #54
We also need to consider the Cardinality of sin.
 
  • #55
Ugh. Talk about going off on a tangent...
 
  • #56
Hurkyl said:
Ugh. Talk about going off on a tangent...

:smile: a little too obtuse for you tastes?
 
  • #57
An acute observation as always.
 
  • #58
I saw that; you should have left it.

I secant the emotion.
 
  • #59
Bah, I need to be quicker on the edit! I was going to save it until I didn't have to shoehorn it in as much. :frown:
 
  • #60
foiled again
 
  • #61
would anyone care to explain what indeterminate and undefined mean exactly and why the obviously very significant difference is?
 
  • #62
I believe [but am not absolutely certain] that this an accurate representation of the difference.

00 = 1

The value is indeterminate, but defined to be 1 for consistency. By this, division by zero is both indeterminate and undefined.
 
  • #63
how does the 0 to the power of 0 will be 1. wouldn't it be 0?

i am a maths and science noob tho.
 
  • #64
kaos said:
how does the 0 to the power of 0 will be 1. wouldn't it be 0?

i am a maths and science noob tho.

Take a look at the function f(x)=x0. This motivates defining 00=1 in circumstances similar to this function. Take a look at the function g(x) = 0x. In circumstances similar to this function, we may want to define 00 to be 0. This is why 00 is indeterminate.
 
  • #65
BobG said:
Barely anyone even knows this is a Lewis Carroll reference, let alone what the question is (Douglas Addams gives a hint in his book, not the answer).
I hadn't a clue about Lewis Carroll. I only know from the books that although 42 was the correct answer, they had asked the wrong question. Please elucidate. (even on PM if you don't want to alter reality in the thread)

BobG said:
And if we're voting on it, I say we make division by zero immoral.
No! Then I'd spend the rest of my life doing it! I have other plans!
 
  • #66
Danger said:
I hadn't a clue about Lewis Carroll. I only know from the books that although 42 was the correct answer, they had asked the wrong question. Please elucidate.
There's a part where Alice starts doing weird arithmetic saying the '4 times tables' but seemingly getting it it all wrong. She also says something like "at this rate, I'll never reach 20".

The reason the multiplication that Alice is doing is not wrong is because she is not working in base 10. Each line of her tables is in a different base (chosen from some nice sequence with differences of 3). Following the sequence, you get 4*10=17 (base 33), 4*11=18 (base 36), 4*12 = 19 (base 39) and so, you'd expect 4*13=20 (base 42). But alas ! The correct answer, base 42, will be 1A. So her tables will never see a 20 in the answer !
 
  • #67
Gokul43201 said:
There's a part where Alice starts doing weird arithmetic saying the '4 times tables' but seemingly getting it it all wrong. She also says something like "at this rate, I'll never reach 20".

The reason the multiplication that Alice is doing is not wrong is because she is not working in base 10. Each line of her tables is in a different base (chosen from some nice sequence with differences of 3). Following the sequence, you get 4*10=17 (base 33), 4*11=18 (base 36), 4*12 = 19 (base 39) and so, you'd expect 4*13=20 (base 42). But alas ! The correct answer, base 42, will be 1A. So her tables will never see a 20 in the answer !

Tsu gives her age in hex [base 16].
I just noticed that the IRS forms never specify the base to be used. Hmmm. :rolleyes:
 
  • #68
Danger said:
I hadn't a clue about Lewis Carroll. I only know from the books that although 42 was the correct answer, they had asked the wrong question. Please elucidate. (even on PM if you don't want to alter reality in the thread)
Lewis Carroll used the number 42 constantly in his books because he was addicted to Physics Forum and 42 is the answer to all of PF's important questions.
 
  • #69
liz said:
would anyone care to explain what indeterminate and undefined mean exactly and why the obviously very significant difference is?

Undefined means that no meaning has been assigned, so in this case, as (0,0) is outside of the domain of the binary operator '/', '0/0' has no meaning assigned to it.

Something is indetermiante when it has no definte value assigned to it, for example say we take two functions and combine them into another function h(x) = f(x)/g(x). Let us say that the limits of f(x) and g(x) as x tends to some value c are both zero, then the limit of h(x) could take on any real value or not exist, so we call the limit of our general function h(x) as x tends to c 'indetereminate' (though rember it is a genarl function for a specific function the limit either exists and has a specific value or doesn't exist).
 
  • #70
Gokul43201 said:
There's a part where Alice starts doing weird arithmetic saying the '4 times tables' but seemingly getting it it all wrong. She also says something like "at this rate, I'll never reach 20".

The reason the multiplication that Alice is doing is not wrong is because she is not working in base 10. Each line of her tables is in a different base (chosen from some nice sequence with differences of 3). Following the sequence, you get 4*10=17 (base 33), 4*11=18 (base 36), 4*12 = 19 (base 39) and so, you'd expect 4*13=20 (base 42). But alas ! The correct answer, base 42, will be 1A. So her tables will never see a 20 in the answer !
I never knew that! Thanks Gokul. :approve:
 

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