Is Iran Next on Bush's Military Agenda?

[selfAdjoint]

Did you see Bush's saber-rattling interview in Cairo today, specifically linking our options on Iran to our attack on Iraq? Is somebody telling him that he can raise his popularity again with another war? Or does he just see this as a way to head off a Shariah-Shiite Islamic republic in southern Iraq, which seems to be the way the constitution making is going.

 

[Archon]

I'm surprised he hasn't invaded San Francisco on the same basis.

Well, saying that terrorists are attacking the Golden Gate Bridge is a powerful unifying device which Bush could use to justify another war. Saying that American soldiers are attacking the Golden Gate Bridge on his orders just doesn't have the same ring to it.

 

[SOS2008]

This is part of the reason the American people aren't going to stop Bush from doing something like invading Iran. He doesn't have to convince everyone: just a large enough minority to say that he has support among among the general population. And there are always going to be people willing to blindly follow either Bush himself or his claims that Iran is threatening the American way of life.

Things have changed a bit. First, we don't have 9-11. Second, the Dems and others who did not stand strong enough against Bush in asking for verification of WMD, links to Al Qeada, etc. are not in any hurry to repeat that mistake--especially with the 2006 elections ahead. And as the war in Iraq becomes increasingly unpopular among Americans, along with deficit spending, rising gas prices, etc. it will help the Dems to stand up in all matters going forward. But especially going into another war of attrition. I'm glad to see Blair distance himself. And now, even with Bolton in the UN, world condemnation will have more weight--and Bolton lost credibility before he could even start.

Everyone just needs to stand strong, and it may be that Americans would take to the streets. The roadside demonstrations have grown a great deal everywhere Bush goes. If these are large enough it won't be ignored so easily, and if there's a draft, we'd likely see this be the case.

 

[Smurf]

Iranians or Persians except for long time ago never invaded other country, instead they were subjected to constant pillaging, so I'm not too worried about Iran.

That's actually a good point stoned. Iran hasn't started a war since.. well, a long long time ago. Everything since then has been started by someone else wanting to take some of their oil reserves.

 

[edward]

Of course it doesn't make sense...to rational people. But this is what Bush wants to do:
This describes events leading up to the Rapture, which Bush and fundamentalists believe in. He doesn't care about the future (e.g., global warming). He only lusts for continued power and operates under delusions of doing God's work.

The "RAPTURE" is a much more important aspect of all of this than most people realize. Christians have always believed in the Phrophesies pertaining to the Rapture.

Their belief is that it will occur when certain events, including a massive war, have happened in the middle east. The same is true for the "second coming of Christ" It has been their belief for many years, even centuries.

The big difference now is that the current Christian fundamentalist right feels that they must make the necessary events happen.

Is Bush one of them, or is he just leading them along to gain support for his business ventures in the middle east?

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

The "RAPTURE" is a much more important aspect of all of this than most people realize. Christians have always believed in the Phrophesies pertaining to the Rapture.

Their belief is that it will occur when certain events, including a massive war, have happened in the middle east. The same is true for the "second coming of Christ" It has been their belief for many years, even centuries.

The big difference now is that the current Christian fundamentalist right feels that they must make the necessary events happen.

Is Bush one of them, or is he just leading them along to gain support for his business ventures in the middle east?

If you believe that Bush really goes in for this sort of thing then you ought to also believe in how dangerous Saddam is since he supposedly believes he is the reincarnation of Nebekanezer which supposedly plays into this Rapture scenario.

 

[BobG]

"The people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy, all you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger." These are the words of Josef Goebbels, Hitler's propaganda minister.

Damn ... and I thought it was Pengwuino

And I thought it was General Goering.

The quote is actually a little longer... "Naturally the common people don't want war: Neither in Russia, nor in England, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. ... Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country."

It's an observation about political leaders and war, not a 'recipe' for propoganda. This quote would be very appropriate in the source vs. content thread. I don't think too many people would use a Nazi general as a serious source for their own side - it's usually more effective to associate your opponents with Nazi Germany. However, without the little extra 'bite' added by associating this quote to Germany's propaganda minister, does the quote still hold true?

 

[solutions in a box]

If you believe that Bush really goes in for this sort of thing then you ought to also believe in how dangerous Saddam is since he supposedly believes he is the reincarnation of Nebekanezer which supposedly plays into this Rapture scenario.

There is another entity involved in the Christain doctrine. It is the Anti Christ, who will cunningly
gain the peoples trust and then with lies and deception lead them into wars.

Hmmm that is a decripton of GW.


Another "being" which will be involved is the BEAST.

Oh Oh that sounds like Dick Cheney.

And was mentioned by someone above, don't take the Christian right too lightly. There are millions of these "good", and yes they are good people, who have been led to believe Bush's lies.

 

[BobG]

The "RAPTURE" is a much more important aspect of all of this than most people realize. Christians have always believed in the Phrophesies pertaining to the Rapture.

Their belief is that it will occur when certain events, including a massive war, have happened in the middle east. The same is true for the "second coming of Christ" It has been their belief for many years, even centuries.

The big difference now is that the current Christian fundamentalist right feels that they must make the necessary events happen.

Is Bush one of them, or is he just leading them along to gain support for his business ventures in the middle east?

Your terminology might be a little loose. 76.5% of Americans are Christians, but only about 16.3% are Baptists. While most of the Baptist groups are very fundamentalist, 16.3% would still be a high estimate for the percentage of Americans that are Christian fundamentalists.

Even if different religions share quite a few common concerns (for example, both Catholic and Baptist churches would both be in favor of banning abortion), they also have quite a few differences (for example, the Catholic church opposes the death penalty, while most Baptists are in favor of the death penalty).

Having TV shows and buying radio stations doesn't turn a small sect into the spirit of America. Your comments about Christians believing in prophesies about the rapture only apply to a small minority of the American population, not about Christians, in general.

 

[edward]

And I thought it was General Goering.

The quote is actually a little longer... "Naturally the common people don't want war:

It's an observation about political leaders and war, not a 'recipe' for propoganda. This quote would be very appropriate in the source vs. content thread. I don't think too many people would use a general from Nazi General as a serious source for their own side - it's usually more effective to associate your opponents with Nazi Germany. However, without the little extra 'bite' added by associating this quote to Germany's propaganda minister, does the quote still hold true?

It seems to me it would depend to a great deal on the; intelligence, determination and general knowledge of the common people. You can't lead people into a war by offering them candy. Instilling fear does historically appear to work.

 

[edward]

Your terminology might be a little loose. 76.5% of Americans are Christians, but only about 16.3% are Baptists. While most of the Baptist groups are very fundamentalist, 16.3% would still be a high estimate for the percentage of Americans that are Christian fundamentalists.

Even if different religions share quite a few common concerns (for example, both Catholic and Baptist churches would both be in favor of banning abortion), they also have quite a few differences (for example, the Catholic church opposes the death penalty, while most Baptists are in favor of the death penalty).

Having TV shows and buying radio stations doesn't turn a small sect into the spirit of America. Your comments about Christians believing in prophesies about the rapture only apply to a small minority of the American population, not about Christians, in general.

Good points BoB G
My terminology was very loose. I should have said most Protestants instead of most Christians. In particular fundamentalist Protestants would have been a better choice of words. Their numbers are growing (over ten million) and they carry enough weight at the ballot box to determine the outcome of an election.

I would also comment that I have nothing against them, but like I mentioned, the believe of those who think that we as a nation must take actions to make the "End Times" come, is a big concern to me.

There are several fundamental protestant members in my own family. (in- laws are such fun) When I heard them talking about how Bush should start bombing Syria and Iran, I was shocked at their "take em all on" attitude.

 

[edward]

There is another entity involved in the Christain doctrine. It is the Anti Christ, who will cunningly
gain the peoples trust and then with lies and deception lead them into wars.

Hmmm that is a decripton of GW.


Another "being" which will be involved is the BEAST.

Oh Oh that sounds like Dick Cheney.

And was mentioned by someone above, don't take the Christian right too lightly. There are millions of these "good", and yes they are good people, who have been led to believe Bush's lies.

You forgot Gog and Magog

 

[BobG]

Good points BoB G
My terminology was very loose. I should have said most Protestants instead of most Christians. In particular fundamentalist Protestants would have been a better choice of words. Their numbers are growing (over ten million) and they carry enough weight at the ballot box to determine the outcome of an election.

I would also comment that I have nothing against them, but like I mentioned, the believe of those who think that we as a nation must take actions to make the "End Times" come, is a big concern to me.

There are several fundamental protestant members in my own family. (in- laws are such fun) When I heard them talking about how Bush should start bombing Syria and Iran, I was shocked at their "take em all on" attitude.

It's a common trend. It would probably sound like a religious attack if they said "Baptists" and that wouldn't be politically correct. It also wouldn't be accurate, since the idea of mixing politics and religion isn't unanimous, even among Baptists.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20050815/pl_nm/court_roberts_religion_dc

Several groups have voiced opposition to the rallies, especially some Christians critical of what they see as a mingling of religion and politics.

"We live in a complex society and theirs is a simplistic approach," said the Rev. Bill Sherman, a Baptist minister in nearby Fairview, Tennessee.

"To identify your church with a party, to push your agenda is not the proper function of the church. I don't like for any church to try to manipulate a political party. Politicians should be elected, not chosen by the church. There are plenty of Baptists who feel as I do and do not feel this is appropriate," he said.

It's kind of hard to name the group when they, themselves, like to capitalize on a 'Christian image' to further their goals. But, they are supported to an extent by the Bible Baptist Fellowship International (the "Bible Baptists"), the largest fundamental Baptist group.

 

[SOS2008]

There are many Christians who believe in the End Time or Last Days. The Rapture is a glorification that born-again evangelicals tend toward. However, I feel the percentage is much larger than most people realize--I posted a statistic back when of the % of Americans who believe the Bible to be literal. In any event, here's some reading for those who like:

http://www.pbs.org/now/commentary/moyers15.html

http://www.truthout.org/cgi-bin/artman/exec/view.cgi/38/8664

A 2002 Time/CNN poll found that 59 percent of Americans believe that the prophecies found in the Book of Revelations are going to come true.

As for Bush, I always found it odd that he avoided global warming, and for that matter energy, which he didn't address until gas prices began sky rocketing and affecting his popularity, and his general lack of concern for our economy with deficit spending and military campaigns. Hmm...

 

[Art]

Bush loses his last major ally;

Britain keeps distance from talk of strike on Iran


LONDON (Times) -- The foreign secretary Jack Straw sought to distance Britain from comments by President George W. Bush that he would not rule out a military strike against Iran.

It came as diplomats gave warning that British attempts to solve the crisis prompted by Tehran’s resumption of its nuclear program last week were doomed to failure. The Foreign Office reacted swiftly. “Our position is clear and has been made very, very clear by the foreign secretary,” a spokesman said.

“We do not think there are any circumstances where military action would be justified against Iran. It does not form part of British foreign policy.”

http://www.tehrantimes.com/Description.asp?Da=8/15/2005&Cat=2&Num=003

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

There are many Christians who believe in the End Time or Last Days. The Rapture is a glorification that born-again evangelicals tend toward. However, I feel the percentage is much larger than most people realize--I posted a statistic back when of the % of Americans who believe the Bible to be literal. In any event, here's some reading for those who like:

http://www.pbs.org/now/commentary/moyers15.html

http://www.truthout.org/cgi-bin/art...iew.cgi/38/8664

A 2002 Time/CNN poll found that 59 percent of Americans believe that the prophecies found in the Book of Revelations are going to come true.

Eschatology is a vastly popular topic. Do you realize how many people who are only vaguely Christian or not even Christian at all believe these prophesies may come true? It's not so much a function of fundamentalism as it is a socialogical trend that has existed for centuries upon centuries. It's an interesting phenomena that the majority of people seem to want to be there to see the end of the world, like a collective death wish shearly for a desire to live in "interesting times".

 

[SOS2008]

Eschatology is a vastly popular topic. Do you realize how many people who are only vaguely Christian or not even Christian at all believe these prophesies may come true? It's not so much a function of fundamentalism as it is a socialogical trend that has existed for centuries upon centuries. It's an interesting phenomena that the majority of people seem to want to be there to see the end of the world, like a collective death wish shearly for a desire to live in "interesting times".

True people have been preaching the world is coming to an end for centuries, and the difference now is believing in it versus hoping for it. The Rapture is a more glorified version of mainstream beliefs. Perhaps this is a reason for the phenomena, though the thought of suffering does not deter many people who feel it would be worth it to have the second coming. And they think jihad suicide bombers have crazy thoughts?

 

[SOS2008]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8942221/site/newsweek/

"Don't Make Hollow Threats -
With 150,000 U.S. troops in Iraq and Afghanistan, Tehran has many ways to retaliate against an American military strike."
Newsweek

...President Bush appears to be headed on a path that could teach him this lesson. Last week he responded to Iran's decision to resume work on its nuclear program by asserting that "all options are on the table" to stop Iran's nuclear development. He also implied that were Israel to strike at Iran's nuclear facilities, the United States would support it. Unfortunately, these are hollow threats, unlikely to have much effect other than to cheapen America's credibility around the world. (Within hours of Bush's statement, German Chancellor Gerhard Schroder made clear that he would not support any such action against Iran.)

Airstrikes against Iran would be extremely unwise. They would have minimal military effect: the facilities are scattered, are reasonably well hidden and could be repaired within months. With oil at $66 a barrel, the mullahs are swimming in money. (The high price of oil and Iran's boldness are directly related.) More important, a foreign military attack would strengthen local support for the nuclear program and bolster an unpopular regime. Iran is a country with a strong tradition of nationalism—it is one of the oldest nations in the world.

Economic sanctions are the other weapon of choice. The United States already has them in place against Tehran—with little effect—and the chances of widening them are low. To get comprehensive sanctions against Iran, Russia and China would have to agree. But Moscow is helping build one of Iran's reactors, and China is busy signing deals to buy oil and natural gas from it. Both countries will condemn Iran's actions, but they will not shut down their economic ties with it.

Many Iranians believe that they should and will be a nuclear power. ...Last year, Iran's former foreign minister under the shah, Ardeshir Zahedi, argued that Iran should have nuclear weapons, and that under a different regime, Iranian nukes would be no more threatening than those of Britain. In fact, Iran's nuclear program was started by the shah in the early 1970s with American support.

Tehran is seeking a grand bargain: a comprehensive normalization of relations with the West in exchange for concessions on nuclear issues. It will never give up its right to a nuclear program, he argues, but it would allow such a program to be monitored to ensure that it doesn't morph into a weapons project. But the prize they seek, above all, is better relations with the United States. "That is their ultimate goal," he said.

There are lots of reasons to be suspicious of Iran. But the real question is, Do we want to try to stop it from going nuclear? If so, why not explore this path? Washington could authorize the European negotiators to make certain conditional offers, and see how Tehran responds. What's the worst that can happen? It doesn't work, the deal doesn't happen and Tehran resumes its nuclear activities. That's where we are today.

Iran has been pro-West through history far more than many other M.E. countries. The current embargoes do nothing, so why not try better relations instead? After all, we want allies and peace in the region. But no, no Iran is an "axis of evil" so:

...the Bush administration...remains unwilling to talk, let alone negotiate, on anything substantive. As with North Korea, the shift toward a less hostile policy is so slight that it can't possibly succeed. In fact, I sometimes wonder whether this new "soft" policy has been designed by Vice President Cheney's office, so that it fails, discredits any prospect of negotiating and thus returns us to the old policy...

Gosh, that Bush is unwavering in his position is so admirable, isn't it?

Four more wars! Four more wars!

 

[outsider]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8942221/site/newsweek/

Iran has been pro-West through history far more than many other M.E. countries. The current embargoes do nothing, so why not try better relations instead? After all, we want allies and peace in the region. But no, no Iran is an "axis of evil" so:

Gosh, that Bush is unwavering in his position is so admirable, isn't it?

Four more wars! Four more wars!

Children often behave this way... he wants his candy and he's going to get it.

Mine! All Mine!- daffy duck

why can't he be cool like Bugs?

 

[Lisa!]

I somehow suspect "retaileation" is a red herring: don't you simply wish for the annihilation of the U.S.?

It would be Americans' fault anyway. They must be crazy not to stop starting another war. Somehow I am surprised how some Bush is re-eleceted again and Americans didn't do anything about that.

 

[El Hombre Invisible]

The progression of the diminishing motive for foreign invasion is quite interesting. The US got away with invading Afghanistan because of the tenuous notion that it had facilitated in a past comprimise of American national security. The US got away with invading Iraq because of the tenuous notion it had current means and inclination to comprimise American national security. The US is now justifying invading Iran because of it may, one day, procure the means to comprimise American national security, if so inclined.

What comes next? Invading a country on the grounds it WOULD comprimise American national security if it ever considered acquiring the means?

 

[El Hombre Invisible]

It would be Americans' fault anyway. They must be crazy not to stop starting another war. Somehow I am surprised how some Bush is re-eleceted again and Americans didn't do anything about that.

Like...?

 

[El Hombre Invisible]

The North Koreans are renowned for their paronoia and it appears current activity in the south by Korean and US forces isn't helping to reassure them. I'd have thought the last thing the US would need right now is to alarm the North Koreans when they potentially possesses several nuclear weapons. http://www.canada.com/news/world/story.html?id=8e825582-15ef-408d-8a90-30ee180ba119

This is a little late, but I just read it and it amused me, not least because it rings so true that the reason the US would not consider military action against a country with WMDs is the worry that they might actually use them. What does it say about their evaluation of countries that it would consider military action against?

 

[Lisa!]

Like...?

It's not my job to think about it. They're living in a free and democratic country, so there are lots of ways for them to solve this problem.
If they re-elect Bush, they should accept all their choise's consequencies. If they didn't, as I said they should do sth about it!

 

[Skyhunter]

Your terminology might be a little loose. 76.5% of Americans are Christians, but only about 16.3% are Baptists. While most of the Baptist groups are very fundamentalist, 16.3% would still be a high estimate for the percentage of Americans that are Christian fundamentalists.

Even if different religions share quite a few common concerns (for example, both Catholic and Baptist churches would both be in favor of banning abortion), they also have quite a few differences (for example, the Catholic church opposes the death penalty, while most Baptists are in favor of the death penalty).

Having TV shows and buying radio stations doesn't turn a small sect into the spirit of America. Your comments about Christians believing in prophesies about the rapture only apply to a small minority of the American population, not about Christians, in general.

And polls are meaningless. Here is a Recent Harris poll on evolution.

"Do you think human beings developed from earlier species or not?"


6/17-21/05 Did 38% Did Not 54% Unsure 8%


"Do you believe apes and man have a common ancestry or not?"


6/17-21/05 Do 46% Do Not 47% Unsure 7%

More people believe we share a common ancestor than believe in evolution

Here is a Gallup poll:

To assess public opinion on creationism, Gallup asked:

Which of the following statements comes closest to your views on the origin and development of human beings?
1) Human beings have developed over millions of years from less advanced forms of life, but God guided this process,
2) Human beings have developed over millions of years from less advanced forms of life, but God had no part in this process,
3) God created human beings pretty much in their present form at one time within the last 10,000 years or so?
Polled in November 2004, 38% of respondents chose (1), 13% chose (2), 45% chose (3), and 4% offered a different or no opinion. These results are also similar to those from previous Gallup polls, which extend back to 1982.

Now what was that about fundamentalism in the US?

 

[loseyourname]

More people believe we share a common ancestor than believe in evolution

Maybe they believe that apes evolved from humans and not the other way around. (I'm joking, of course, but the poll would make sense if this were the case.)

Now what was that about fundamentalism in the US?

It's unchanged since 1982?

 

[vanesch]

What comes next? Invading a country on the grounds it WOULD comprimise American national security if it ever considered acquiring the means?

Several steps are ahead:

1) invading neutral countries that might, one day, decide not to consider not to acquire the means.

2) invading allies that might one day distanciate themselves, placing them in situation 1).

3) invading the US itself, on the grounds that one day, it might consider NOT to invade countries satisfying 2), and hence put itself at danger.

4) destroy themselves right now, because they might one day decide upon 3) and hence pose a big threat to the US, which has to be eliminated pre-emptively.

 

[vanesch]

Now what was that about fundamentalism in the US?

Guh, a bunch of theocrats with nukes, scary !

 

[BobG]

In spite of Iran's nuclear program taking the headlines, I think possible conventional weapons coming into Iraq from Iran are a little troubling.

An Iraq based on Shiite law would make a better neighbor for Iran than a pro-US neighbor would, so there's at least some credibility in the idea that Iran would like to see enough chaos in Iraq that the US won't be very picky about how we get out. Assuming, of course, Iran thinks it could help the Iraqi Shiites prevent an all out civil war from breaking out - we're having a hard time doing that, ourselves.

I don't think the US would bomb Iran based on the nuclear weapons program alone. But, there's always been a big risk of the Iraq invasion spilling over the border into Syria or Iran. I wouldn't be at all shocked to see the war spread over the border and into Iran.