Is It Fair to Hold Elections Under Foreign Occupation?

[selfAdjoint]

- In 1958, Lebanese left parties arranged demonstrations against the government (Kamil Shimon). These demonstrations arranged by the Duruz well known leader (Kamal Jumblat). Kamil Shimon asked USA to stop these demonstrations, so the Marines attacked the protesters and murdered hundreds of people.

Did not. Show your sources.

 

[SOS2008]

Back to the original post:

http://www.ericmargolis.com/archives/2005/02/who_killed_rafi.php

“Syrian forces had been invited in by Lebanon’s Maronite Christians and the Arab League to end Lebanon’s bloody, 15-year civil war.

They remained and made sure pro-Syrian politicians ran Lebanon. In spite of a recent, US-French engineered UN Security Council demand to withdraw from Lebanon, Damascus refuses to pull out until Israel withdraws its troops occupying the Golan Heights and West Bank in violation of UN resolutions.

Syria has never entirely accepted Lebanese independence. French colonialists created Lebanon out of historical Syria to create a Maronite Christian-dominated enclave. Imperial Britain similarly carved out Kuwait from historical Iraq to secure its oil. Washington has totally adopted Israel’s view that Syria is a dangerous threat and supporter of terrorists - meaning Palestinian resistance groups Hamas and Islamic Jihad, and Lebanon’s welfare and resistance organization Hizbullah.”

 

[russ_watters]

I am against a government that invades a country under the name of democratic ideals without the civilians in mind. Russ agrees that this is done without the civilians in mind and for your country's own interests, which is exactly what he posted under the other thread.

Could you put any more words in my mouth I didn't say? Saying that we act primarily based on our own self interest is not the same as saying we don't consider the implications for the civilians in the area. I'm tired of people putting words in my mouth and I won't tolerate it, klusener.

 

[Bilal]

BBC : Timeline: Lebanon

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/819200.stm

1958 14 July - Faced with increasing opposition which develops into a civil war, President Shamun asks the US to send troops to preserve Lebanon's independence.

1958 15 July - The US, mindful of Iraq's overthrow of its monarchy, sends marines to re-establish the government's authority.
Other American sources :

http://www.chadduck.com/ymarines/library/documents/lebanon.htm

http://www-cgsc.army.mil/carl/resources/csi/Wade/wade.asp


http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/AMH...-1984/USMC-Lebanon82/img/USMC-Lebanon82-4.jpg

http://www.kimball.k12.sd.us/FIRE/old3.htm

picture no 9 with comment ((1958, Eisenhower ordered U.S. Marines into Lebanon at the request of President Chamoun because of riots in the country))

Did not. Show your sources.

 

[Bilal]

Historically; France separated the mountain of Lebanon from Syria in 20s and added some lands to form Lebanon against the will of Syrian people. Also they gave part to Turkey to get their support in 2WW.

UK created Kuwait and separated it from Iraq in 40s... Also they gave Iran another part. Of course they created Jews Homeland in Palestine by ‘’ethic cleansing of native people”

But we should accept the reality now and accept the current map; otherwise more wars will be created! Human life should be the most important

Back to the original post:

http://www.ericmargolis.com/archives/2005/02/who_killed_rafi.php

“Syrian forces had been invited in by Lebanon’s Maronite Christians and the Arab League to end Lebanon’s bloody, 15-year civil war.

They remained and made sure pro-Syrian politicians ran Lebanon. In spite of a recent, US-French engineered UN Security Council demand to withdraw from Lebanon, Damascus refuses to pull out until Israel withdraws its troops occupying the Golan Heights and West Bank in violation of UN resolutions.

Syria has never entirely accepted Lebanese independence. French colonialists created Lebanon out of historical Syria to create a Maronite Christian-dominated enclave. Imperial Britain similarly carved out Kuwait from historical Iraq to secure its oil. Washington has totally adopted Israel’s view that Syria is a dangerous threat and supporter of terrorists - meaning Palestinian resistance groups Hamas and Islamic Jihad, and Lebanon’s welfare and resistance organization Hizbullah.”

 

[misskitty]

Back to the original post:

http://www.ericmargolis.com/archives/2005/02/who_killed_rafi.php

“Syrian forces had been invited in by Lebanon’s Maronite Christians and the Arab League to end Lebanon’s bloody, 15-year civil war.

They remained and made sure pro-Syrian politicians ran Lebanon. In spite of a recent, US-French engineered UN Security Council demand to withdraw from Lebanon, Damascus refuses to pull out until Israel withdraws its troops occupying the Golan Heights and West Bank in violation of UN resolutions.

Syria has never entirely accepted Lebanese independence. French colonialists created Lebanon out of historical Syria to create a Maronite Christian-dominated enclave. Imperial Britain similarly carved out Kuwait from historical Iraq to secure its oil. Washington has totally adopted Israel’s view that Syria is a dangerous threat and supporter of terrorists - meaning Palestinian resistance groups Hamas and Islamic Jihad, and Lebanon’s welfare and resistance organization Hizbullah.”

This is a good point you raise. How can the Lebanese people run their own country and make decisions in Lebanon's best interests if the government is Pro-Syrian? They can't because whatever decision they make will be biased and therefore NOT in Lebanon's best interests.

 

[russ_watters]

- Women in Turkey, Palestine, Lebanon, Tunisia, Syria ... and many other Muslims countries have good situation...

Well, let's have a look...

Literacy Rate:

Country...male...female
Turkey...94%...79%
Lebanon..93%...82%
Tunisia...84%...64%
Syria...86%...56%
Egypt...64%..39%
Iran...78%...66%

Looks to me like they still have a little ways to go...

 

[Bilal]

Most of not educated people are those who older than 50 years. Rarely can you find in these countries young people who can not write or read.

Just in 60s, majority of people in these countries, especially females can not read or write..
Egypt and Morocco are the only two countries in the region that did not solve this problem in this generation.

Well, let's have a look...

Literacy Rate:

Country...male...female
Turkey...94%...79%
Lebanon..93%...82%
Tunisia...84%...64%
Syria...86%...56%
Egypt...64%..39%
Iran...78%...66%

Looks to me like they still have a little ways to go...

 

[Moonbear]

Well, let's have a look...

Literacy Rate:

Country...male...female
Turkey...94%...79%
Lebanon..93%...82%
Tunisia...84%...64%
Syria...86%...56%
Egypt...64%..39%
Iran...78%...66%

Looks to me like they still have a little ways to go...

That's not as much of a gender disparity as I would have expected. I'm not trying to diminish the difference, just expressing some surprise. By the way, do you have a link or citation for the source of that information? I'd be curious to read further on that.

 

[Bilal]

http://www.gulf-news.com/Articles/news.asp?ArticleID=108223

ADULT LITERACY RATES IN SELECTIVE ARAB STATES
...1990...... 2000
...Male...Female...Male...Female
UAE... 71... 71... 75... 79
Qatar...92... 92... 94... 94
Kuwait...79... 73... 84... 80
Bahrain...87... 75... 91... 83
Arabia...76... 50... 83... 67
Oman... 67... 38... 80... 62
Egypt... 60... 34... 67... 44
Syria... 82... 48... 88... 60
Iraq... 51... 20... 55... 23
Jordan...90... 72... 95... 84
Lebanon..88... 73... 92... 80
Morocco..53... 25... 62... 36
Libya...83... 51... 91... 68
Sudan...60... 32... 69... 46
Yemen...55... 13... 68... 25
Source: UNICEF GN graphic

The following table is more important to make comparison study:
Just from 1990 to 2000

You could see the higher rate of increasing in literacy among females in :
Male female

UAE 4% ... 8%
Qatar 2%... 2%
Kuwait 5%...7%
Bahrain 4%...8%
Arabia 7%...17%
Oman 13%...24%
Egypt 7% ... 10%
Syria 6% ... 12%
Iraq 4%... 3% (!)
Jordan 5%... 12%
Lebanon 4%... 7%
Morroco 9%... 11%
Libya 8%... 7%
Sudan 9%... 14%
Yemen 13%... 12%

It is clear from these calculations that literacy increases among females in All Arab countries except Yemen.
This means they already started good steps to solve this problem.

If we have data of 60s, you will surely surprise! Education among the females was less than 10% in all these countries.



http://www.undp.org/hdr2003/indicator/indic_2_2_2.html

Occupied Palestinian Territories 89.2%

 

[russ_watters]

By the way, do you have a link or citation for the source of that information? I'd be curious to read further on that.

All of that is the cia factbook via google. "lebanon cia world factbook" for example.

 

[misskitty]

This is not ment as an attack. I am seriously asking this question because I don't know the answer, but I would like to.

If these Arab nations are making such great strides to improve the conditions for women, have they allowed women to stop wearing their face coverings. Are they being allowed to pursue professions other than nursing and teaching? Can women walk the streets without a male escort or in a large group of women? Are they allowed to wear clothes expose more than their hands and wrists and ankles; I mean clothes that are more like what you or I would wear, not stripper attire or anything along those lines. Can women vote or hold a political office? Improving the literacy rate is a step on the path, but I want to know what else is being done.

 

[kat]

Can you please post links to show that Bilal's post is not accurate?

I really don't have time to do a line by line fisking of BIlal until maybe tuesday. Which I will try to do. Until then, why don't you take this quote from Bilal:

The question: Israel sings Oslo agreement , according to this agreement Israel should withdraw within 5 years (in 1998), but we observed that Israel increased the settlements by 200% within this period and stole 60% of Lands and 85% of water resources, so why Bush can not tell Israel also to withdraw?

and fisk it a bit yourself. For instance, what part of the failure of Oslo belonged to the Palestinians? I actually know a man who was there when Arafat showed up for the last meeting...they were to discuss boundries etc. He said he was astounded that they showed up with no maps whatsoever and he said to me "who shows up to settle boundries with no maps?" There are always two sides to every story, and somewhere in the middle lies the truth. Bilal has one side, so what is the other side? can we leave the propaganda behind?

 

[Bilal]

I believe the most acceptable links are those belong to Israeli peace bloc... Those people are Israeli Jews who want to live in peace and working for it, so I do not think they are pro Palestinian against their country! They are Zionist Jews living in Israel, but also they are open minded people and want to compromise for peace …… they have several members in the Israeli parliament.

Gush Shalom/Israeli peace bloc
http://gush-shalom.org/english/

This is the opinion of peace bloc about what called Barak offer 2000:
http://gush-shalom.org/media/barak_eng.swf

Separation wall

http://gush-shalom.org/thewall/

Please visit their homepage and read about expansion of settlements with maps and pictures …

I really don't have time to do a line by line fisking of BIlal until maybe tuesday. Which I will try to do. Until then, why don't you take this quote from Bilal:
and fisk it a bit yourself. For instance, what part of the failure of Oslo belonged to the Palestinians? I actually know a man who was there when Arafat showed up for the last meeting...they were to discuss boundries etc. He said he was astounded that they showed up with no maps whatsoever and he said to me "who shows up to settle boundries with no maps?" There are always two sides to every story, and somewhere in the middle lies the truth. Bilal has one side, so what is the other side? can we leave the propaganda behind?

 

[Bilal]

Dear misskitty

ONLY Saudi Arabia and Iran care about women clothes, the rest of countries do not care, even they do the opposite. Covering face exists only among those extreme salafi and some Shia groups, but it is not accepted by majority of religious Muslims.

- Tunisia: They do not let women to cover their head (hijab) or to wear Islamic cloths in public places! You could find many women in Bikini on the coast. Beside that, they give the women rights more than men … for example women can divorce and take her kids. This country going further step than Europe by creating ‘’feminism” conditions!

- Turkey: Hijab and Islamic clothes not allowed in governmental places including schools and Universities.

- Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Egypt, Libya, Morocco, Algeria are secular countries, and women are allowed to wear what they need..
- Pakistan, Yemen and Afghanistan are mostly tribal societies …. But in developed areas women are completely free..
- Malaysia and Indonesia are classical Islamic countries, and women also free and their rights protected by the laws.
- Albania, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Kazakhstan.. are Muslims countries by name only.
- Bahrain , Kuwait, Oman and UAE are conservatives countries but women also are protected.

Muslims are 23% of the world and majority of 55 countries from 190 countries. So you should not think that small tribe in Afghanistan represents them!

They have many different religious schools and every country has its own laws.

Islam teachings allowed the women to have their own money, business, and private life … also they should join the election and do sports. Islam asks women and men to wear respectful clothes and covering most of their bodies in public places. Muslims scholars have different opinions about which parts should be covered.


In pre Islam Arabia, women were treated as slaves, even many pre Islam Arab used to bury their daughters in the sand of desert alive. They felt shame to have female kids, because they were tribal society who cares a lot about males.

Islam fought all these crimes and asks for the fist time to treat the women as equal human to the man. She allowed working and getting education …

Unfortunately some modern tribal societies are still under effect of that era. It is also exist among other religions as Hindus …

This is not ment as an attack. I am seriously asking this question because I don't know the answer, but I would like to.

If these Arab nations are making such great strides to improve the conditions for women, have they allowed women to stop wearing their face coverings. Are they being allowed to pursue professions other than nursing and teaching? Can women walk the streets without a male escort or in a large group of women? Are they allowed to wear clothes expose more than their hands and wrists and ankles; I mean clothes that are more like what you or I would wear, not stripper attire or anything along those lines. Can women vote or hold a political office? Improving the literacy rate is a step on the path, but I want to know what else is being done.

 

[misskitty]

Bilal, calm down! There was a reason why the first line of my post said: This is NOT ment as an attack.

I don't think a small Afgani tribe represents the entire Mulism population. Thats why I asked about the treatment of wome in the rest of the world. Its like Kat said, there are two sides to every story. I got the extremist side where women are treated poorly. I wanted the other side. So I asked. Thats all.

Thanks for taking the time to give me a better understanding of how the rest of the world treat women in Islam. That was some very insightful information you gave.

To respond to Kat's post: it is foolish to show up to a meeting about new boundary lines without a map. Why this would happen I'm not sure. It is definitely a foolish thing to do.

Bilal post concerning the Israeli Peace Bloc: how much of the population is in support of this group? I would assume it would be a good number of people in the country, but I don't know. I think its great to have such an organization willing to cooperate with the Palestinians to help them form their own country. Then their government can operate as it pleases under the control of the elections of the people Hence no more election under occupation.

Ah, if only it were that easy.

 

[kat]

I believe the most acceptable links are those belong to Israeli peace bloc... Those people are Israeli Jews who want to live in peace and working for it, so I do not think they are pro Palestinian against their country! They are Zionist Jews living in Israel, but also they are open minded people and want to compromise for peace …… they have several members in the Israeli parliament.

Gush Shalom/Israeli peace bloc
http://gush-shalom.org/english/

This is the opinion of peace bloc about what called Barak offer 2000:
http://gush-shalom.org/media/barak_eng.swf

Separation wall

http://gush-shalom.org/thewall/

Please visit their homepage and read about expansion of settlements with maps and pictures …

I prefer this site The Peace Process is Dead, Long Live the Peace Process

 

[misskitty]

I skimmend the article. Its a good site with lots of information. I think its good to have multiple sources because then we can cross reference information, hence we MIGHT get a better picture of what is going to be done to settle land disputes and end occupation.

 

[klusener]

Unfortunately some modern tribal societies are still under effect of that era. It is also exist among other religions as Hindus …

I don't know about the Hindus part and I think the Indians in this forum will attest to that, like Islam, there may be some villages where women will be treated like you say, but not the burying part though... But in most of India, basically all of India, women are treated equally, I mean there are a lot of women in the government (Sonia Gandhi, Indira, Laloo's wife, Jayalalitha etc..) I mean there are tons of women in the government and they are allowed to do whatever they want in public, recently i myself have seen an increase in the amount of women smoking and drinking in public here. Hinduism does not say that women are inferior, that's why in the ancient past, there used to be many queens who ruled large areas of land and even fought with other kingdoms ruled by men.. Whatever women can do in america or Europe, they can do here..

 

[Bilal]

Dear klusener

I think there is misunderstanding...

I do not talk about Hinduism or Indian culture, which is one of the oldest and greatest civilizations in the world. I mentioned that some tribal areas have troubles with women, whether they are Muslims or Hindus or even Buddhism...
Such tribal societies do not represent religion or culture of that country. Also I do not mean they bury girls alive as ancient Arab did (in fact no people since 1400 do that anymore). Just they treat them unequally in some social aspects.

It is the same as some Bedouin societies in Arab countries who have strict rules related to women.

In general these exceptional tribes represent less than 1% of total population, but for propaganda purposes, some media focus on them and show their tribal laws as representative for specific culture or religion.

I don't know about the Hindus part and I think the Indians in this forum will attest to that, like Islam, there may be some villages where women will be treated like you say, but not the burying part though... But in most of India, basically all of India, women are treated equally, I mean there are a lot of women in the government (Sonia Gandhi, Indira, Laloo's wife, Jayalalitha etc..) I mean there are tons of women in the government and they are allowed to do whatever they want in public, recently i myself have seen an increase in the amount of women smoking and drinking in public here. Hinduism does not say that women are inferior, that's why in the ancient past, there used to be many queens who ruled large areas of land and even fought with other kingdoms ruled by men.. Whatever women can do in america or Europe, they can do here..

 

[Bilal]

This site is supporter for the right wing in Israel.. so why you do not prefer my site which is Israeli , it is also accepted solution for both sides? Otherwise I can present hundreds of pro Palestine sites showing the opposite views of your site?

I prefer this site The Peace Process is Dead, Long Live the Peace Process

 

[misskitty]

This is true.

 

[klusener]

Dear klusener

I think there is misunderstanding...

I do not talk about Hinduism or Indian culture, which is one of the oldest and greatest civilizations in the world. I mentioned that some tribal areas have troubles with women, whether they are Muslims or Hindus or even Buddhism...
Such tribal societies do not represent religion or culture of that country. Also I do not mean they bury girls alive as ancient Arab did (in fact no people since 1400 do that anymore). Just they treat them unequally in some social aspects.

It is the same as some Bedouin societies in Arab countries who have strict rules related to women.

In general these exceptional tribes represent less than 1% of total population, but for propaganda purposes, some media focus on them and show their tribal laws as representative for specific culture or religion.

sorry, i misunderstood... But now that I do understand, I am in complete agreement with you..

 

[misskitty]

This is going to sound stupid, but why would you not want to treat women as your equal? I mean seriously, what is the driving force behind the inequality of women in Arab countries?

 

[Bilal]

Hmmmm

Did you study the history of women rights in the West?
Do you know that women in Switzerland are allowed to join election only in 1971!

Women in all third countries (not just in Arab countries) still struggle to get their rights completely... it is combination of economical-social and cultural factors.

As I said before, Muslims women in Turkey, Egypt , Syria , Malaysia , Tunisia... are completely equal with men. There are some problems in poor areas as any place in the world, especially third world countries.

This is going to sound stupid, but why would you not want to treat women as your equal? I mean seriously, what is the driving force behind the inequality of women in Arab countries?

 

[misskitty]

I haven't been able to study women's rights in the west.

 

[kat]

This site is supporter for the right wing in Israel.. so why you do not prefer my site which is Israeli , it is also accepted solution for both sides? Otherwise I can present hundreds of pro Palestine sites showing the opposite views of your site?

It certainly is not a "right wing" supporter. It is a site run by both Palestinians and Israelis. If you'd like to see some right wing sites I can also post a multitude of links. You should realize that just because a site is "Israeli" doesn't make it neutral. There are plenty of "anti-israeli" jews just as there are plenty of "anti-american" americans.

 

[misskitty]

They can still set up a website that sounds and appears "neutral", but its not because of how they word what they say. It fools people into believing they have received an unbiased opinion on the matter, when they really haven't. Read enough of those sites and you'll start to think like them and support them without even knowing it. That is sad.

 

[Rev Prez]

Bush asked Syria several times to withdraw immediately from Lebanon before the election. He believes that no honest election under foreign occupation.

Your case rests entirely on an assumption that, if held, means Bush believes the elections held under the Occupation of Japan and Germany were fraudulant.

Rev Prez