Is it possible to transform an electric thunderstorm into an EMP storm?

[Aurora Program]

TL;DR Summary: Do not get confused with the title, standard thunderstorms are not generally classified as EMP storms because they don't have the power, the scale and nature of the electromagnetic energy involved are greatly different compared to a nuclear EMP detonation, that's exactly the point of this.

I know some of you are going to get confused with the title as it is not standard literature, but I'm asking what if electrical thunderstorms were transformed into super powerful EMP storms through massive energy enhancement that could make the unusual thunderstorm disable an entire town or country's electricity? is this possible?

Electrical thunderstorms are not classified as EMP storms as I read into, and they don't have the power to disable an entire city because they don't have the energy, so if we had the energy enhancement just like a nuclear weapon's EMP could it be this exaggerated?

How could this energy enhancement occur though? Could it be similar to how nuclear fission happens?

 

[phinds]

is this possible?

Have you done any research on your own? Seems like you have just come up with a random thought and want us to figure it out for you.

 

[hutchphd]

I suppose it might be possible. Now, what do we do?

 

[Vanadium 50]

what if electrical thunderstorms were transformed into super powerful EMP storms through massive energy enhancement

By what process does this "enhancement" occur? It sounds kind of like magic.

 

[fresh_42]

I would be more concerned about another Carrington event.

 

[PhysicsEnjoyer31415]

Well this seems impossible. Naturally it is impossible ofcourse. Even if we are talking MAKE-BELIEVE if you combine the energy of all lightnings on earth at once by some method , still i think most of the energy would translate to equivalents of some "X" nuclear bombs(this was covered by a author randall munroe) it might be possible then.

How could this energy enhancement occur though? Could it be similar to how nuclear fission happens?

lightning does break N2 molecules but causing fission is a bit too much .To cause fission you need a unstable large atom like f-block elements . You generally do not find Uranium and Thorium atoms in atmosphere(if you do find ...well its been nice knowing you) so it will not be something like fission and no you cannot "enhance" the energy of lightning

 

[hutchphd]

starfish nuclear test series produced very interesting and I guess truly shocking data (ha ha) regarding antipodal effects of very high altitude detonations of megaton warheads.
https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/citations/AD0680983
These effects are really global, not provincial, so thunderstorms seem unlikely

 

[PhysicsEnjoyer31415]

starfish nuclear test series produced very interesting and I guess truly shocking data (ha ha) regarding antipodal effects of very high altitude detonations of megaton warheads.
https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/citations/AD0680983
These effects are really global, not provincial, so thunderstorms seem unlikely

Yes exactly .....but OP is trying to do something with lightning and wants to "magically" "enhance" the energy like a radioactive ore enhancement to mimic nuclear detonation.

 

[berkeman]

Lordy. Thread moved from the technical forums to the SciFi Writing forum for now.

 

[fresh_42]

There is a region in Venezuela, Lake Maracaibo, with 233 lightning per sq-km per year. This is one of the highest concentrations on Earth, but that didn't ever create an EMP event. Here is an overview of lightning hot spots:
https://www.meteoswiss.admin.ch/wea...ons-of-the-world-with-the-most-lightning.html

As mentioned earlier, another Carrington event is not only more dangerous, it is also statistically overdue!

 

[Vanadium 50]

Lordy. Thread moved from the technical forums to the SciFi Writing forum for now.

I agree with the Lordy. I don't think the SciFi Writing section should become the dustbin for substandard threads. (Which was my concern when it was opened)

 

[fresh_42]

I agree with the Lordy. I don't think the SciFi Writing section should become the dustbin for substandard threads. (Which was my concern when it was opened)

I agree. I think this thread belongs into "Earth" on level "B". Not everybody is a physicist, or geologist or has even studied something at all. It would be a good idea for us (sounds better in German: "es stünde uns gut zu Gesicht") to give curious people, often kids, a little more freedom.

 

[berkeman]

Well, okaaayyy. Make it so.

 

[fresh_42]

Well, okaaayyy. Make it so.

Done. Unfortunately, there isn't a level-system here. A little more feedback from @Aurora Program would also be appreciated. That would keep us all from guessing what might be the background of the question.

 

[Vanadium 50]

A little more feedback from @Aurora Program would also be appreciated

More than that - I think it's necessary. And even so, the answer is probably "no" as the total enegy in lightning isn't that great. It looks like it takes around a day of lightning - worldwide - to match the energy of even a small nuclear device.

 

[Baluncore]

The trick is to delay all the minor strikes that will occur during a storm, until the last possible moment. The first UV flash will then trigger breakdown between the cloud and the ground over a large area. That makes it a parallel Marx current pulse generator.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marx_generator

I believe that such an atmospheric event can happen naturally, but will be limited in area and will be very rare. One requirement is that the weather be very still and calm, and that there be a temperature inversion to oppose the electrostatic attraction that would normally lead to a small early 'spoiler' strike.

There was one occasion when such a thing seems to have happened throughout our regional valley. During two independent phone calls, the flash, tick, crack, and operator scream, of a close strike occurred synchronously. The distances involved were 20 km and 10 km, making the phenomenon extend over 30 km. There were many local breakdowns, at the same time, triggered at the speed of UV light. The resulting EMP would have radiated from the trigger, like from a travelling wave antenna. The following thunder heard by all four listeners rumbled on for over a minute. That is a difficult experiment to repeat. We had no unusual reports of electronic equipment failure following the 'event'.

 

[Vanadium 50]

I believe that such an atmospheric event can happen naturally,

I do not. The atmosphere is continuously bombarded by cosmic rays, which ionize the air and provide a low resistance path to ground.

 

[PhysicsEnjoyer31415]

I do not. The atmosphere is continuously bombarded by cosmic rays, which ionize the air and provide a low resistance path to ground.

I agree, such massive buildup will result in lightning

 

[Baluncore]

I do not. The atmosphere is continuously bombarded by cosmic rays, which ionize the air and provide a low resistance path to ground.

Then lightning could not occur as the atmosphere would discharge quickly at a low voltage. It takes a meteor to leave an ionisation trail sufficiently long to reach the ground.

I agree, such massive buildup will result in lightning

It does, and the UV from the first strike triggers the nearby parallel breakdown.

We had no unusual reports of electronic equipment failure following the 'event'.

The observed size possible in the atmosphere, is limited to below the destruction of electronic systems, so is orders of magnitude less than a nuclear EMP.

 

[hutchphd]

It was interesting to me because the production of intense and relatively remote production of electromagnetic effects from thermonuclear explosions at 150 km from surface was another of those unpleasant (pleasant to some) surprises from these darling devices. Between Starfish Prime and Castle Bravo we should be thankful there was not another larger "gotcha' lurking in the weeds. I guess "Tsar Bomba" would have revealed it!

 

[PhysicsEnjoyer31415]

The observed size possible in the atmosphere, is limited to below the destruction of electronic systems, so is orders of magnitude less than a nuclear EMP.

If it is magnitudes lesser , then it cannot cause a nuclear emp.

You cannot have a emp unless you use UNSCIENTIFIC MAGIC (OP suggestion)o merge every lightning strike(atleast enough strikes to be equivalent to one or more than one than one nuclear detonations) to even replicate a emp.

My opinion about the UV light is , yes it is true that the UV breaks down nearby molecules but given the density of molecules of air in a certain volume and the inverse square law of light ,it will not be enough to cause anything even close to nuclear detonation.(i think so , correct me if im wrong)

About the low voltage thing , yes the charges start discharging quickly which ionizes the air at breakdown voltage , which indeed causes a dielectric breakdown leading to a lightning strike .it will not keep leaking on low voltage .Once the air is ionized the capacitance will increase opening a low resistance path through which all charges will rush through(also think so but feel free to correct me people)

 

[Baluncore]

If it is magnitudes lesser , then it cannot cause a nuclear emp.

It cannot be a "nuclear" EMP, but is can produce an EMP that interferes with radio reception.

Once the air is ionized the capacitance will increase opening a low resistance path through which all charges will rush through(also think so but feel free to correct me ...

The atmospheric charge is stored in the electrostatic capacitance between separate parcels of air. Ionisation of the intermediate insulating air, increases the conductivity, which discharges the capacitance as a lightning strike. The capacitance does not change, but the capacitor insulation fails.

Marx generators are triggered by UV radiation from a spark gap, that sympathetically triggers nearby gaps, causing a synchronous cascade breakdown.

 

[PhysicsEnjoyer31415]

It cannot be a "nuclear" EMP, but is can produce an EMP that interferes with radio reception.


The atmospheric charge is stored in the electrostatic capacitance between separate parcels of air. Ionisation of the intermediate insulating air, increases the conductivity, which discharges the capacitance as a lightning strike. The capacitance does not change, but the capacitor insulation fails.

Marx generators are triggered by UV radiation from a spark gap, that sympathetically triggers nearby gaps, causing a synchronous cascade breakdown.

Agreed, the spark gaps are quite close and also why would lightning take a different path if the first one is already ionized right?...so that would make lightning strikes very closeby prettymuch impossible thus proving the OP wrong i guess?...

 

[Vanadium 50]

Then lightning could not occur as the atmosphere would discharge quickly at a low voltage. It takes a meteor to leave an ionisation trail sufficiently long to reach the ground.

It doesn't have to reach the ground. It just needs to reach the next ionized segment.

The electric fields in clouds are an order of magnitude too small to spark. The two theories are that lightning is triggered by electric avalanches caused by a) cosmic rays, b) ionized particles of ice. Both are known to exist.

Cosmic rays explain why lightning forks. It explains why x-ray detectors see x-rays before the strike - which is itself somewhat controversial. It explains why the starting point of the lightning in the cloud is well-localized. And, as someone who has looked at many, many electromagnetic showers, they look very similar. Additionally, one can build a model of this in the lab - called a spark chamber.

I know less about ionized ice than cosmic rays, so I will not speak to that

This is not a new theory - it's been around for almost a century t least: one can find papers from the 1930's. (e.g. Tandberg Nature 132, 712 (1933)) It's also not all or nothing - there is no reason both can't contribute.

 

[hutchphd]

By the way, what defines an EMP? I don't really have a clue what we are discussing.....not too unusual!
For the OP: what differentiates an EMP storm from just a big thundertstorm.

 

[Baluncore]

By the way, what defines an EMP?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_pulse

 

[Aurora Program]

By the way, what defines an EMP? I don't really have a clue what we are discussing.....not too unusual!
For the OP: what differentiates an EMP storm from just a big thundertstorm.

Hypothetically I was suggesting a variation of a thunderstorm but with large EMPs and I'm pretty sure any weather man wouldn't be calling them standard thunderstorms, right? I was asking if there was someone with in-depth knowledge in high energy physics if they believe it is possible to alter the energy from a thunderstorm to make such massive naturally impossible EMP emissions with advanced technology.

 

[Aurora Program]

I am asking this here because my knowledge of physics is limited and this takes me way way beyond my limit.

 

[Aurora Program]

More than that - I think it's necessary. And even so, the answer is probably "no" as the total enegy in lightning isn't that great. It looks like it takes around a day of lightning - worldwide - to match the energy of even a small nuclear device.

What kind of feedback would you need? my question is where would the massive energy come from to make massive EMP emissions, and if it even possible to make such an energy process?

 

[Vanadium 50]

This sounds a lot like magic.

You need some magic process to pump more energy into thunderstorms than there is - not by a factor of 2, but by af actor of many thousands.

Then you need a 2nd magic process to keep this energy from discharging before you want it to.

 

[berkeman]

Because of low signal-to-noise, this thread is closed.