Is it time for international intervention in Mugabe's terror campaign?

[kat]

I believe this is more indicative of how many countries view the UN. Why should they invest where they have no power?

China...no power?
Riiighht

China blocks human rights at UN

 

[kat]

yeah ! as i said before, when Mugabe evicts farmers from farms whole world is crying with Blair and Bush on top, but when Israel is dividing and stealing Palestinian land they vetoing every UN plan to stop Israel from destroying it AND killing Palestinian people.
if we want to talk about progressve Africa first our governments must stop subsidizing our farmers.

The 700,000 left without homes or employment due to Mugabe's demolition or homes and entire villages...were not white farmers. The 2.4 million affected since may...were not white farmers. When Israel effectively leave over 2.4 million homeless and in famine in a few short months...you might compare the two...but even then they really aren't comparable, you just seem to need to bring attention back to the Jews whatever the issue is.

 

[marlon]

Ill forgive you becuase I am sure English isn't your first langague, but it reads differently from what you ment

ok, thanks, it was my mistake.

And do you not feel at all guilty for the suffering Belgium caused there? The way I see it, its the same as Killing a childs father and then when the child grows up into a cycopath, the killer could say.. "Nothing to do with me, the mother didnt have a clue how to raise a child"

Well, though it is a nice analogy i must say that the Africa situation is a bit more complicated. I do not feel guilty what so ever, to answer your question. To elaborate on your analogy,i can also say this. What if the mother and child both keep on living and the mother does a great job at raising the child ? What if he/she evolves into becoming a phd-student ? I mean, why do you assume that he will turn out poorly.

Besides, you also cannot say, well..., because the father was killed, this kid had no decent upbringing and well..., there is your reason for him/here being a psychopath. Other factors are also important here like good social environment, education, mother, friends,...


marlon

 

[The Smoking Man]

I'm absolutely serious. Maybe instead of wasting bandwidth with sarcastic post you might try responding with an opposing thought and facts to back it.

K.

Continuing the conservation of bandwidth.

Iraq ... there's a thought now if you don't know the facts relative to the invasion by now, you are pretty sad in your defense of international law and human rights.

 

[sid_galt]

Iraq ... there's a thought now if you don't know the facts relative to the invasion by now, you are pretty sad in your defense of international law and human rights.

1. The topic was CHINA here NOT the USA.
2. The USA set up a DEMOCRACY in Iraq not a DICTATORSHIP.
3. The USA is NOT a human rights violator like China is.

Why is the world so obsessed with the US that it blames every goddamn bad thing in the world on the US?

 

[stoned]

Why is the world so obsessed with the US that it blames every goddamn bad thing in the world on the US?

you know, cause' USA has thousands of nuclear missiles and is ruled by imbecile and traitors.

 

[loseyourname]

K.

Continuing the conservation of bandwidth.

Iraq ... there's a thought now if you don't know the facts relative to the invasion by now, you are pretty sad in your defense of international law and human rights.

Jesus Christ, do you do this in every thread? You have nothing to say relevant to the topic at hand so you throw in some random punch at the US and try to sound clever?

 

[Anttech]

Why is the world so obsessed with the US that it blames every goddamn bad thing in the world on the US?

isnt satan from the states?

 

[loseyourname]

isnt satan from the states?

I think he's Roman. The name Lucifer is latin.

 

[DM]

The 700,000 left without homes or employment due to Mugabe's demolition or homes and entire villages...were not white farmers. The 2.4 million affected since may...were not white farmers. When Israel effectively leave over 2.4 million homeless and in famine in a few short months...you might compare the two...but even then they really aren't comparable, you just seem to need to bring attention back to the Jews whatever the issue is.

Thank God someone is finally able to understand this! How can people claim that it's all about white farmers?!

 

[The Smoking Man]

Jesus Christ, do you do this in every thread? You have nothing to say relevant to the topic at hand so you throw in some random punch at the US and try to sound clever?

Well, Glad to see you could drop in and give us your input.

So far, most of your diatribe consists of Monty Python lookalike suggestions on how to play the flute ... 'blow in one end and run your fingers up and down the sides.'

Maybe all the women can stop having sex and we can halt war here too?

1. The topic was CHINA here NOT the USA.
2. The USA set up a DEMOCRACY in Iraq not a DICTATORSHIP.
3. The USA is NOT a human rights violator like China is.

So far the idea of sanctions in Iraq worked a treat didn't it.

Here are some stats for you on the sanctions in Iraq ... which China opposes against Zimbabwe:

Q: How many years ago was UN Resolution 661 introduced, imposing strict sanctions on Iraq's imports and exports?
A: 12 years

Q: What was the child death rate in Iraq in 1989 (per 1,000 births)?
A: 38

Q: What was the estimated child death rate in Iraq in 1999 (per 1,000 births)?
A: 131 (that's an increase of 345%)

Q: How many Iraqis are estimated to have died by October 1999 as a result of UN sanctions?
A: 1.5 million

Maybe the attitude of China is a new approach to attempt to bring enough cash to the country so that the few resources that make it in during an embargo and sanctions don't end up going to Keep Mugabe and the army alive?

Tell me, has anyone actually listened to the approach that China has suggested against Zimbabwe or is the 'if you're not with us, your against us' attitude still got prevelence in the USA mentality?

In case you didn't know, the first people to protest sanctions against regimes was NOT China but AMERICAN Citizens in the form of Aid Workers.

Well, guess what folks? Even with all China's civil rights and human rights violations over the last 30 years, they HAVE managed to bring the country along at an incredible pace, joined the WTO and are now one of the most successful countries on earth... And do you know who's number two? VIETNAM who patterned their growth on that of China.

Now let's look at who you would have solve this problem ... a bunch of Americans wafting about the flames of past US failures to the point they couldn't deliver their anual criticism of China over Human Rights Violations for fear that their OWN record would be dragged out to their embarrassment in the same hall!

Yes, while China still has violations America has joined them on that same path.

Now let's have a look at how you delivered 'Democracy'. First, hatch a bunch of lies and circumvent your OWN democratic process. Second, deliver those same lies to the UN and, when they don't agree with you, invade with the 40 countries who sided with you as the 'minority' of the UN.

Well, there's democracy for you.

Then, with the democratic process certainly abused and cast to the wind, assure the world that 'the ends justified the means' while Donald Rumsfeld makes the declaration, "I will not allow the creation of another Islamic Regime in the Middle East".

Well, one would assume that the first process of democracy would be something to do with self determination especially since your two biggest allies in the Middle East, Kuwait and Saudi ARE Islamic Regimes!

Now, what I am trying to tell you with all of this is that there are more countries on the face of the Earth than the USA and it is increasingly apparent that the USA has lost the answers.

Walking around like a bull in a china shop has resulted in the heating up of Iran (who also seems to be wooing Iraq to their side), North Korea, more terrorism in the world than you can shake a stick at, and an increasingly isolationist attitude.

So now what you all intend is an approach similar to what you have done to Cuba?

For a Christian country, why do you not look to Christianity or even Ghandi as another approach to dealing with Zimbabwe? Why don't you take a look at what China has to offer as far as suggestions?

Oh, and Sid? If you think the USA isn't a human rights violator, you're looking in the wrong country.

You need to look beyond your borders to what you have done which would violate your own laws.

 

[loseyourname]

Jesus Christ, do you do this in every thread? You have nothing to say relevant to the topic at hand so you throw in some random punch at the US and try to sound clever?

So far, most of your diatribe consists of Monty Python lookalike suggestions on how to play the flute ... 'blow in one end and run your fingers up and down the sides.'

Does this or does this not make my point? Another random insult, desperately trying to be as clever as possible, that has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

 

[kat]

Maybe the attitude of China is a new approach to attempt to bring enough cash to the country so that the few resources that make it in during an embargo and sanctions don't end up going to Keep Mugabe and the army alive?

Somehow I don't think blocking discussion of human rights issues at the U.N. is a "new approach" for China.

 

[The Smoking Man]

Does this or does this not make my point? Another random insult, desperately trying to be as clever as possible, that has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

You had a point? I think the rest of the post solves your other problem.

 

[The Smoking Man]

Somehow I don't think blocking discussion of human rights issues at the U.N. is a "new approach" for China.

Really!?

When I go through the number of times the Veto has been used in the UN, I see that China has used it 4 times since Beijing assumed her seat in 1972.

America has used it 79 times to interfere with resolutions against Israel primarily.

So tell me how China has interfered with the discussion of Human Rights at the UN since they have no additional power relative to the General Assembly.

Taking a walk from a meeting is like your congress or senate in the USA or the parliament in the UK.

Walking out on a meeting merely means that the person who walks doen't have any input into the process and actually puts them at a disadvantage since you abdicate the right to give any argument or influence on the issue.

 

[loseyourname]

Really!?

When I go through the number of times the Veto has been used in the UN, I see that China has used it 4 times since Beijing assumed her seat in 1972.

America has used it 79 times to interfere with resolutions against Israel primarily.

So tell me how China has interfered with the discussion of Human Rights at the UN since they have no additional power relative to the General Assembly.

Taking a walk from a meeting is like your congress or senate in the USA or the parliament in the UK.

Walking out on a meeting merely means that the person who walks doen't have any input into the process and actually puts them at a disadvantage since you abdicate the right to give any argument or influence on the issue.

See, here we go again. We're talking about Mugabe, and the reason he remains in power and no one is doing anything about it. Kat brings up the stonewalling of China in the UN and you respond by saying "So what? The US has done this hundreds of times!" If it's wrong when the US does it, it's wrong when China does it, and you're again changing the topic to find a reason to criticize the US.

 

[The Smoking Man]

See, here we go again. We're talking about Mugabe, and the reason he remains in power and no one is doing anything about it. Kat brings up the stonewalling of China in the UN and you respond by saying "So what? The US has done this hundreds of times!" If it's wrong when the US does it, it's wrong when China does it, and you're again changing the topic to find a reason to criticize the US.

Here we are in La La Land again. Kat brought up stonewalling by China and I explained why they couldn't. They don't have the power in the General assembly.

I mentioned the 4 times they had used the veto and how that it wasn't China that abused the system but the nation posted by the poster he DOES live in the USA in case you didn't know.

In a previous post you will also find that I mentioned it was not the Chinese who instigated the opinion that UN sanctions that didn't work but American aid workers.

 

[loseyourname]

Here we are in La La Land again. Kat brought up stonewalling by China and I explained why they couldn't. They don't have the power in the General assembly.

Maybe that's what you brought up initially, but that certainly isn't what you were bringing up in the post I responded to.

I mentioned the 4 times they had used the veto and how that it wasn't China that abused the system but the nation posted by the poster he DOES live in the USA in case you didn't know.

Exactly. How is that a legitimate response to what she said? Are you just trying to say she's a hypocrite? Why? She isn't the US delegate to the UN? Is she somehow responsible for their actions because she is a citizen of the country they represent?

In a previous post you will also find that I mentioned it was not the Chinese who instigated the opinion that UN sanctions that didn't work but American aid workers.

I wasn't complaining about your previous posts. I'm complaining one post and the pattern it shows. You have tendency to respond to any accusation of wrongdoing on the part of any nation other than the US by an American by saying "Oh yeah, well the US has done X, Y, and Z." Again, argumentum ad hominem. Deflecting from the case being made to attack the person making the case, their country, or generally turn it into a discussion of something else.

 

[The Smoking Man]

Maybe that's what you brought up initially, but that certainly isn't what you were bringing up in the post I responded to.

I really suggest you go up and look at the two posts you're talking about then. There is her post, there is my response to you and then there is my response to her.

Welcome to loseyourname lalaland again.

Exactly. How is that a legitimate response to what she said? Are you just trying to say she's a hypocrite? Why? She isn't the US delegate to the UN? Is she somehow responsible for their actions because she is a citizen of the country they represent?

I wasn't complaining about your previous posts. I'm complaining one post and the pattern it shows. You have tendency to respond to any accusation of wrongdoing on the part of any nation other than the US by an American by saying "Oh yeah, well the US has done X, Y, and Z." Again, argumentum ad hominem. Deflecting from the case being made to attack the person making the case, their country, or generally turn it into a discussion of something else.

No, if I strictly attacked HER (sorry Kat), then it would be ad hominem. What I did was disprove her argument with a statement of fact ... that the Chinese are unable to 'stonewall' (An American term, I might add) and then stated the only thing that they could eventually do was to use the Veto which they have only used 4 times before contrary to the record of her own country who have circumvented the democratic will of the UN 79 times.

Now I suggest if you Americans do not want to have criticisms hurled in your direction, you clean up your own act. After all, the actual reason there was no discussion of human rights this year was not because the Chinese 'stonewalled' but because the American government slipped into the realm of the violators and found they could NOT deliver the anual criticism of the Chinese record. Well, not without getting laughed off the floor.

Now Kat is NOT the representative of her government and neither am I or you HOWEVER, all of the arguments presented here are the realm of our respective governments and we are expressing our opinions as if we were the representatives which, in terms of this site, we are.

Now as far as ad hominem, you have so far followed me through about 4 or 5 of these threads and not addressed anything in the posts. You, my friend ARE guilty of ad hominem attacks.

You have, in point of fact taken it upon yourself to be my puppydog critic digressing every topic so far.

Maybe I do miss the topic occasionally but the posts ARE at least about the issue or a related issue. I even apologized when I knew I was beginning a digression.

To you, 'I' have become the topic. You've made me your own personal topic.

Now ... back to the topic befor I have to hit your snout with a rolled up newspaper.

 

[kat]

Oh please...blah blah blah, it'd be so much easier to debate/discuss with you if you'd cut out the hypberbolic rhetoric and stick to factual stataments.
The report on the bulldozing of entire towns by Mugabe was discussed at the U.N. but was the discussion was origionally blocked by China. This has nothing to do with vetoes. It's the blocking of discussion of human rights issues, period.
And quite honestly you can go on and on about American human rights abuses but no country in the world is ever been called upon like the U.S. is when someone needs to go into a country and save people from tyrants like Mugabe. In fact the U.N was just recently crying for the U.S. to go back into Haiti because the U.N. troops are failing to control the gangs.

 

[Art]

The report on the bulldozing of entire towns by Mugabe was discussed at the U.N. but was the discussion was origionally blocked by China. This has nothing to do with vetoes. It's the blocking of discussion of human rights issues, period.

Will you please post a link to your source on this please?

And quite honestly you can go on and on about American human rights abuses but no country in the world is ever been called upon like the U.S. is when someone needs to go into a country and save people from tyrants like Mugabe.

Will you supply specifics and sources for this also please?

In fact the U.N was just recently crying for the U.S. to go back into Haiti because the U.N. troops are failing to control the gangs.

Will you advise your source of this strange history please? If you are interested here is what actually happened...

Haiti
In February 2004, opposition forces staged an armed rebellion against the elected president of Haiti, Jean-Bertrand Aristide. The United States and France apparently supported the coup. Since early 2001, Washington had blocked important economic and humanitarian aid to the country. Earlier, it had reneged on police training and on funding for UN human rights and election monitors. The February 2004 rebellion joined together the right-wing Convergence for Democracy, the pro-business Group of 184 and thuggish militia commanders close to former dictators. The rebel military force was small, but the Aristide government had no army and only weak police units. When the rebels captured provincial capitals, regional organizations sought a political solution to the crisis. The Organization of American States (OAS) and the Caribbean Community (CARICOM) urged the UN Security Council to send a multinational force to restore order, but the US and France blocked any action that would leave the populist president in power.

http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/issues/haitindex.htm

 

[The Smoking Man]

Oh please...blah blah blah, it'd be so much easier to debate/discuss with you if you'd cut out the hypberbolic rhetoric and stick to factual stataments.
The report on the bulldozing of entire towns by Mugabe was discussed at the U.N. but was the discussion was origionally blocked by China. This has nothing to do with vetoes. It's the blocking of discussion of human rights issues, period.
And quite honestly you can go on and on about American human rights abuses but no country in the world is ever been called upon like the U.S. is when someone needs to go into a country and save people from tyrants like Mugabe. In fact the U.N was just recently crying for the U.S. to go back into Haiti because the U.N. troops are failing to control the gangs.

Kat, can I ask you what news service you subscribe to?

I did a search on Yahoo News for evidence of any of this and got articles regarding additional UN peacekeepers being sent from Jordan:

http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=988235&CMP=OTC-RSSFeeds0312
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050729/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/haiti_un_troops_1

and Mercinaries arriving from South Africa:

http://www.mg.co.za/articlepage.aspx?area=/breaking_news/breaking_news__national/&articleid=246974

Can you point to something saying the US has been called into solve this problem?

On the contrary the boston Globe has announced:

http://www.boston.com/news/world/la...group_says/?rss_id=Boston+Globe+--+World+News

Rights abuses, violence continue, group says

July 28, 2005

PORT-AU-PRINCE -- The presence of UN peacekeepers for more than a year has failed to curb widespread rights abuses and political violence in Haiti, leaving a volatile climate for upcoming elections, a prominent human rights group said in a report yesterday. Amnesty International accused the US-backed interim government and the UN peacekeeping force of showing leniency toward former soldiers and other rebels who toppled President Jean-Bertrand Aristide last year while aggressively combating armed militants loyal to the ousted leader. (AP)

I have even found evidence of a request into the investigation of the removal of the president at gunpoint by US troops by congress and other articles like the SF Bay asking the rhetorical question 'Why do France and the USA hate Haiti'.

On the other issue, you made the statement that China was 'blocking human rights discussions' and yet the only evidence you gave to support this came from your post #31 where you provided an unattributed quote:

China's deputy U.N. ambassador Zhang Yishan walked out and left a low-ranking diplomat in China's seat. So did Algeria's U.N. Ambassador Abdallah Baali. The United States and Britain had demanded a council briefing on the U.N. report.

Did I miss something? Where did they 'block human rights discussions'? As far as I can tell, until the US president actually appointed Bolton to the UN, YOU only had a low ranking official sitting in the seat too! Had they walked out without leaving anybody there, then there might have been cause to say 'blocking' but your own quote states there was a Chinese delegate at the meeting.

Further searches on the incident reveal: http://www.boston.com/news/world/africa/articles/2005/07/27/un_envoy_presents_report_on_zimbabwe/

"Since they all did the same thing, I can only draw the conclusion that it was some kind of political statement," acting U.S. ambassador Anne Patterson said.

Which also raises the point:

Despite opposition from China, Russia and African countries, a U.N. envoy presented her report condemning Zimbabwe's sweeping slum clearance to the Security Council Wednesday and called for urgent assistance to help those who have lost their homes and jobs.

Which indicates that this is not just a 'China' issue having only acheved 'agenda status' by the bare minimum 9 votes. Since it was NOT an international issue, China was perfectly justified in leaving a low ranking official at the briefing no matter what the opinion of the "acting" U.S. ambassador Anne Patterson.

You will also note that this was a BRIEFING and not debate. Briefings are also accompanied by printed transcripts informing all deligates of the contents. AND since this was merely a briefing on a report already filed WITH the UN, we can see that this was a deliberate attempt to 'rub people's noses in it' and served no other usefull purpose.

 

[kat]

Kat, can I ask you what news service you subscribe to?

I'm a voracious reader SM, I read all of the MSM sources including NYT, WP, WT, the LATimes...my local news. I also read the DailyKos, DU...Instapundint, Belmont club along with spending a lot of time interrogating a Spanish friend of mine (a true leftist...as in supporting of human rights first and foremost..politics not at all) who is currently working for the EU as an election supervisor and has in the past worked for the U.N. in the same capacity. I also read U.N reports, government reports...legal briefs..human rights reports. I enjoy dissecting the news reports versus what the actual text of the document says or what the actual speech, comment, response is/was. Seldom do I find the news service correctly relaying what the actual text or statement is.

In regards to Haiti (Art, SM):
United Nations Secretary General Kofi Annan asked the United States this week to consider sending troops to Haiti
As for the U.N. events in regards to Mugabe, I'll get back to you with supporting links and arguments. It's 1:30 am here and I'm obligated to work 11 hours tomorrow.

 

[The Smoking Man]

United Nations Secretary General Kofi Annan asked the United States this week to consider sending troops to Haiti
As for the U.N. events in regards to Mugabe, I'll get back to you with supporting links and arguments. It's 1:30 am here and I'm obligated to work 11 hours tomorrow.

Sympathies on the heavy day tomorrow.

I did follow the link and it seems the "request" was to contribute troops to a 'rapid reaction force' already staffed by south Americans and is actually a part of a general plan that will later include a "request" to the Canadians and the French.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/06/29/AR2005062902918.html

While the article is indeed entitled, "Annan Makes Plea For Troops in Haiti" it certainly seems more like a "request" inside the article. That is the actual word used by the 'senior U.N official'.

Annan told Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice in a meeting at U.N. headquarters Tuesday afternoon that he may have to ask for American "boots on the ground" in the coming months to reinforce more than 6,500 Brazilian, Chilean, Argentine and other peacekeeping forces serving in Haiti, the officials said.

He expressed hope that the United States would participate in a planned U.N. rapid reaction force, authorized by the Security Council earlier this month, that would have the firepower to intimidate armed gangs threatening the country's fragile political transition. Officials said that similar requests are being considered for other countries, including Canada and France. "We want scarier troops," one senior U.N. official said.

 

[Burnsys]

Sympathies on the heavy day tomorrow.

I did follow the link and it seems the "request" was to contribute troops to a 'rapid reaction force' already staffed by south Americans and is actually a part of a general plan that will later include a "request" to the Canadians and the French.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/06/29/AR2005062902918.html

While the article is indeed entitled, "Annan Makes Plea For Troops in Haiti" it certainly seems more like a "request" inside the article. That is the actual word used by the 'senior U.N official'.

I remember, we burnt american flags in the entrance of our ministery of defence becouse it was sending troops to haiti after america ask them to do it...