Is North Korea's idolization of its leader truly beneficial for its citizens?

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  • Thread starter arpeggio
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In summary: Kim Il Sung's ideology, and it will take a generation or more to change. Kim Jong Un has not had much time to prepare. Should be interesting.In summary, Kim Jong Il died, meaning that the power vacuum that has been present since his father's death may become more prominent.
  • #1
arpeggio
28
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Kim Jong Il died, meaning?

South Korea will invade North? jkjkjk
I hope they can change into democratic country
 
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  • #2


The announcer, wearing black, said he had died of physical and mental over-work.

I love North Korea's TV :smile:

This makes 2011 even more interesting!

If I recall correctly, he was trying to pass the leadership to his son.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-11417016

I don't know enough about his son but he sure seems to lack leaderships skills ..
 
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  • #3


arpeggio said:
South Korea will invade North? jkjkjk
I hope they can change into democratic country

Very doubtful. I was in DPRK this past August. They are truly brainwashed on an ideology. That ideology was from Kim Il Sung and he is dead too. It will take a generation or more to change. Kim Jong Un has not had much time to prepare. Should be interesting. I wonder how many years of mourning they will observe.
 
  • #4


Holy cow!

You were there at a pretty historic time, Greg - right before Kim's fall!

We'll have to see about if it changes - Kim was trying to transfer power to his 20 year old son and if his son can't handle it, it could all come crashing down. The brainwashing works because the society is so closed. If the control of information fails, the people will make the change themselves. See: USSR; glasnost.
 
  • #5


Greg Bernhardt said:
I wonder how many years of mourning they will observe.
:smile:

Right now, there seems to be a power vacuum. I wonder if his son will manage to get hold of the power or everything will come crashing down tonight

I am really eager to see his son coming on the TV and he should have by this time?
 
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  • #6


Nothing is going to come "crashing down" - they have a strong government in place and I'm sure there are lots of people behind the scenes who no one knows about - the son will be the next figurehead, but probably won't have to do very much.
 
  • #7


The soccer world is in mourning.
 
  • #8


I hope they finished his pyramid in time.
 
  • #9


Borg said:
I hope they finished his pyramid in time.
:smile:
 
  • #10


Greg Bernhardt said:
I was in DPRK this past August. They are truly brainwashed on an ideology. That ideology was from Kim Il Sung and he is dead too. It will take a generation or more to change.

There are still plenty of people in the USA brainwashed on an ideology from 1776 - or even from 4004 BC. Don't hold your breath waiting for anything to happen real soon now in NK (or even in the USA).
 
  • #11
AlephZero said:
There are still plenty of people in the USA brainwashed on an ideology from 1776 - or even from 4004 BC. Don't hold your breath waiting for anything to happen real soon now in NK (or even in the USA).
What the heck are you talking about?!
 
  • #12


rootX said:
:smile:

Right now, there seems to be a power vacuum. I wonder if his son will manage to get hold of the power or everything will come crashing down tonight

Do you think so? There are already reports of cleansing going on, the control of the government on the citizens has tightened. Say something that could threaten the power of Kim Jong Un and you'll disappear, don't expect to live.
 
  • #13


North Korean are bright; they'll make King Kong III.
When I was about 6 years old and watched King Kong I I was very sad for days. But then Americans made King Kong II and I was back to happiness, though it stopped there. Let's hope Koreans will overpass Americans.
 
  • #14
pergradus said:
Nothing is going to come "crashing down" - they have a strong government in place and I'm sure there are lots of people behind the scenes who no one knows about - the son will be the next figurehead, but probably won't have to do very much.
That's not how dictatorships work: Kim was in complete control.
 
  • #15


russ_watters said:
That's not how dictatorships work: Kim was in complete control.

I believe the user you quoted was asserting that perhaps it was not a true dictatorship, but rather administered by a small body of people with one figurehead.
 
  • #16


To answer OP's question: Bin Laden, Gaddafi, and Kim Jong-il have all fallen in the past year. It's time to focus on eliminating the next great evils. Namely Robert Mugabe, Justin Bieber, and the entire cast of Jersey Shore.
 
  • #17


KingNothing said:
I believe the user you quoted was asserting that perhaps it was not a true dictatorship, but rather administered by a small body of people with one figurehead.

Kim Jong Il certainly had absolute power. However, even he was second in command to the "enternal president", which is his father. To put it in another way, Kim Jong Il was like Peter in the Bible on level of importance and respect. Kim Il Sung was God/Jesus. The problem is that the country is under the control of not necessarily a person, but of a religion/ideology. Kim Il Sung created it and called it Juche. It is the fuel for the country's pride, patriotism and ultimately it's isolation. It's all about self-reliance and paranoia of the outside world. The question is how will the new leader interpret the Juche philosophy.
 
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  • #18


KingNothing said:
I believe the user you quoted was asserting that perhaps it was not a true dictatorship, but rather administered by a small body of people with one figurehead.

i'm not sure i even believe in the notion of a true dictatorship. a government simply is not going to run unless you've got some competent people working for you to carry out your wishes. and those competent people got to the N-1 positions by being not simply loyal to the regime, but also aggressive and ambitious. if they sense weakness or incompetence, or even personal threat to a position they've worked hard to achieve, then you can get the same kind of emperor stabbery that the Romans knew.

but yeah, depends on how much the guy is worth dead vs alive. if he's just a figurehead with no real power, then all he has to do is continue to play his part.
 
  • #19


Proton Soup said:
i'm not sure i even believe in the notion of a true dictatorship. a government simply is not going to run unless you've got some competent people working for you to carry out your wishes. and those competent people got to the N-1 positions by being not simply loyal to the regime, but also aggressive and ambitious. if they sense weakness or incompetence, or even personal threat to a position they've worked hard to achieve, then you can get the same kind of emperor stabbery that the Romans knew.

It is a little different in DPRK because of the religious reverence of Kim Il Sung and Kim Jung Ill. It would be like a Christian stabbing Jesus. This is the point many don't understand and why an invasion or assassination would be disastrous. His natural death was the only way. The level of totalitarianism of DPRK is off the charts, it's nothing like USSR or Cuba.
 
  • #20


'Juche philosophy'
most people will not understand such. It is beond most peoples eperiance.
Yes there will be those that will try the young Un.
Yes he is also very young. It will be the problem if he is forced to prove himself to the country, and or is manipulated by others in a high position. This is the biggest threat.

The missile test already was done in the idea to show the rest of the world that the military is still intact, etc.
His youth may be the threat over all. depends on how the impulsiveness of youth is dealt with by the country. such impulsiveness already cost the older son to be removed from consideration.

It is a risky time for all.
 
  • #21


Monique said:
Do you think so? There are already reports of cleansing going on, the control of the government on the citizens has tightened. Say something that could threaten the power of Kim Jong Un and you'll disappear, don't expect to live.

The NK neighbors are worried about the inside instabilities.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-16239693
South Korea put its armed forces on high alert and said the country was on a crisis footing. Japan's government convened a special security meeting.

It is troubling that Kim Jong Un only had 1 or 2 years of training and is in only 20s but Kim Jong-il worked with his father for more than 20 years before he took over the country.

BBC has an interesting analysis:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-16243948
North Korea runs a famously tight ship and is adept at putting on a good show. But behind the mask of unity lurk bitter rivalries and tough choices. These are of at least four kinds.

First, personalities. Kim Jong-un's elder half-brother Kim Jong-nam was passed over for the succession. He lives in China, which means he has Beijing's protection.

Second, there are institutional rivalries. Three bureaucracies - the Party (WPK), the military (KPA) and the Cabinet - vie for power, and may not see eye to eye on how to proceed.
...

I had to google for some document written before death and I found this:
http://www.cfr.org/content/publications/attachments/CPA_china_security_memo2_Snyder.pdf

The succession process could be a source of instability in North Korea
as an older generation is removed from power and replaced with a
younger generation of leaders that is presumably...Meanwhile, a careful balancing act is taking place, as internal positions
and responsibilities are shifted among members of Kim Jong-il’s
inner circle, in an attempt to lay the foundations for a smooth transition
to Kim Jong-un. Additional evidence that a leadership transition
is under way can be drawn from disappearances, accidental deaths,
and removals of prominent North Korean leaders in a system in which
post-holders generally die in office rather than retire.9 Despite these
efforts to strengthen the Kim family’s control over North Korea’s leading
institutions and to provide Kim Jong-un with the political standing
necessary to assume leadership following Kim Jong-il’s death, no one
knows for sure whether the succession will unfold as planned. In the
absence of Kim Jong-il, rivalry for power could erupt among competing
bureaucratic interests. Nonetheless, these seemingly tactical adjustments—
and the swirling rumors behind them—betray uncertainty
about the future, abetted by information flows, systemic injustices
stemming from the lack of economic governance inside North Korea,
and rising public disaffection.

It pointed to #9 reference but references are missing in this document.
 
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  • #22


rootX said:
:smile:

Right now, there seems to be a power vacuum. I wonder if his son will manage to get hold of the power or everything will come crashing down tonight

I am really eager to see his son coming on the TV and he should have by this time?

As a result of his father’s “eternal” status, Kim Jong-il was not officially the President of North Korea. Although he was Kim Il-sung’s chosen successor, the younger Kim may have been an unpopular choice among the Party faithful. His take-over of the government was a slow and cautious process. It was several years after Kim Il-sung's death before foreign observers were sure that Kim Jong-il truly would become North Korea’s next leader.

(Bold mine)

http://asianhistory.about.com/od/profilesofasianleaders/p/BioKimJongil.htm

It may be quite some time before we see the new "dear leader" on television.
 
  • #23


Greg Bernhardt said:
It is a little different in DPRK because of the religious reverence of Kim Il Sung and Kim Jung Ill. It would be like a Christian stabbing Jesus. This is the point many don't understand and why an invasion or assassination would be disastrous. His natural death was the only way. The level of totalitarianism of DPRK is off the charts, it's nothing like USSR or Cuba.

Greg, did you get the impression this cult-like devotion was real? Or are people faking it, to avoid the consequences (e.g., starving to death)?

I assume you had a "handler" with you, but did you get to talk freely with anyone, ever?
 
  • #24


lisab said:
Greg, did you get the impression this cult-like devotion was real? Or are people faking it, to avoid the consequences (e.g., starving to death)?

I assume you had a "handler" with you, but did you get to talk freely with anyone, ever?

Certainly there must be a few dissidents here or there, but the majority really do believe everything they are taught. There is no reason for them not to. From birth they are conditioned and never hear an alternate version of anything. Very successful indoctrination. That indoctrination of the Juche philosophy manifests the isolation and paranoia. It's a philosophy of self reliance. One of their favorite mottos is "We have nothing to envy". They believe they are the pure race. The people think South Korea is a hell hole and that the North is a heaven.

It's not as if these people know they are being suppressed or know that it is wrong (besides those in the slave camps perhaps). Through their propaganda they wake up each morning thinking "today is when the US attacks". They delude themselves into thinking the suppression is simply "what needs to be done" in order to defend themselves.

Despite this brainwash the North Koreans as a people are extremely humble and pleasant. When I was visiting I was told at all times what to do. I could not leave my guides side. He told me who to talk to, what to eat, where to sleep, what to take photos of. However I did get to talk to quite a few people in impromptu settings. They are very curious about me and the world, but nothing will stray them from their brainwash. No no way did I try to argue with them, it would be a waste and very very rude. A few times I tried to tell them I was American (i figured out the Korean word) and some of the facial expressions were great, most didn't believe me. Thought I was British.

It was a completely bizarre but fascinating place that is very misunderstood (not to say nothing is wrong).

Here are my public photos if you are interested. I even met with a 4 star General at the DMZ! We talked and he mentioned he wanted peace with the US. haha go figure!http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10100229278541028.2548594.26701563&type=1&l=2e56741d9f
 
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  • #25


Greg Bernhardt said:
Despite this brainwash the North Koreans as a people are extremely humble and pleasant. When I was visiting I was told at all times what to do. I could not leave my guides side. He told me who to talk to, what to eat, where to sleep, what to take photos of. However I did get to talk to quite a few people in impromptu settings. They are very curious about me and the world, but nothing will stray them from their brainwash.

Isn't that the issue lisab pointed out?

It doesn't take a lot of effort to plan a tour that will only show you the rich/patriotic parts of the country.
 
  • #26


Greg Bernhardt said:
Certainly there must be a few dissidents here or there, but the majority really do believe everything they are taught. There is no reason for them not to. From birth they are conditioned and never hear an alternate version of anything. Very successful indoctrination. That indoctrination of the Juche philosophy manifests the isolation and paranoia. It's a philosophy of self reliance. One of their favorite mottos is "We have nothing to envy". They believe they are the pure race. The people think South Korea is a hell hole and that the North is a heaven.

It's not as if these people know they are being suppressed or know that it is wrong (besides those in the slave camps perhaps). Through their propaganda they wake up each morning thinking "today is when the US attacks". They delude themselves into thinking the suppression is simply "what needs to be done" in order to defend themselves.

Despite this brainwash the North Koreans as a people are extremely humble and pleasant. When I was visiting I was told at all times what to do. I could not leave my guides side. He told me who to talk to, what to eat, where to sleep, what to take photos of. However I did get to talk to quite a few people in impromptu settings. They are very curious about me and the world, but nothing will stray them from their brainwash. No no way did I try to argue with them, it would be a waste and very very rude. A few times I tried to tell them I was American (i figured out the Korean word) and some of the facial expressions were great, most didn't believe me. Thought I was British.

It was a completely bizarre but fascinating place that is very misunderstood (not to say nothing is wrong).

Here are my public photos if you are interested. I even met with a 4 star General at the DMZ! We talked and he mentioned he wanted peace with the US. haha go figure!


http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10100229278541028.2548594.26701563&type=1&l=2e56741d9f

Ostrich farm, radioactive damage pills, martial arts training in a room with a bunch of urinals laying around...wow, what a trip!
 
  • #27


rootX said:
Isn't that the issue lisab pointed out?

It doesn't take a lot of effort to plan a tour that will only show you the rich/patriotic parts of the country.

Of course, they showed me what they wanted me to see, no doubt about that. In my mind I often "joked" about what was on the other side of that hill. However Pyongyang and the other few cities I visited are quite large and you can't stage everything.
 
  • #28


Awesome pictures, Greg. I'm speechless at the guts that it took to go there.
 
  • #31


Kim Jong Il was the front man for the military dictorship that runs North Korea. He had power but others have power too. Given N.K is so secretive it difficult know anything about the place for certain so what does all this mean -who knows. Any thinking on this is pure speculation. Time will tell what will happen, the one thing we know for sure societies change when we least expect them to.
 
  • #32
  • #33


Proton Soup said:
so did you buy the seal penis liquor?

and about the monk, is he part of the Dear Leader religion?
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...78541028.2548594.26701563&type=3&l=2e56741d9f

haha yeah, the label said it had 36 kinds of penis. I hope they meant 36 kinds of seal penis! It taste fine, like a funky whiskey. All my aliments were cured, so it was worth it!

The monks was from a Buddhist monastery. Go figure! I think he was the only one there, or at least the only one I saw.

Borg said:
Awesome pictures, Greg. I'm speechless at the guts that it took to go there.

Thanks, but actually as a tourist it's one of the safest places you can ever be (in terms of crime). As long as you follow an extensive rule list, ok with faking respect and having no freedom, it's not half bad! ;)
 
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  • #34


Greg Bernhardt said:
haha yeah, the label said it had 36 kinds of penis. I hope they meant 36 kinds of seal penis! It taste fine, like a funky whiskey. All my aliments were cured, so it was worth it!

The monks was from a Buddhist monastery. Go figure! I think he was the only one there, or at least the only one I saw.

not sure i could drink pickled pickles

maybe the leader worship is some kind of buddism spin, not that different from the tibetan llama in theory, if not practice.
 
  • #35


Greg Bernhardt said:
haha yeah, the label said it had 36 kinds of penis. I hope they meant 36 kinds of seal penis! It taste fine, like a funky whiskey. All my aliments were cured, so it was worth it!
Note to self: buy penis liquor.

You are so lucky that you've been able to travel so extensively and experience so many cultures.
 

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