Is Our Universe Infinite or Spherical?

[luminet]

Here's the abstract for the article that Wolram spotted

http://arxiv.org/abs/0802.2236
The Shape and Topology of the Universe
Jean-Pierre Luminet
21 pages, 11 figures. Proceedings of conference "Tessellations : The world a jigsaw", Leyden (Netherlands), march 2006
(Submitted on 15 Feb 2008)

Luminet is somewhat isolated in his continued interest in these "soccerball" universes.
This paper seems to be two years old, or based on some talk he gave two years ago. I think at that time there was still some interest. As I recall the idea made a spash around 2004 and then it kind of got panned, and interest died down. Other people did not see the same merits that Luminet did.

Sorry but your appreciation is quite wrong. Interest in PDS (Poincaré Dodecahedral Space) topology did not died down at all: since 2004 dozens of papers by many authors explored the case, both for studying its mathematical properties (eigenmodes, etc) and for studying the matching circles signature. The negative search of the predicted six pairs of matched circles reported by Key et. al. was not the last killing word. Aurich et al., in a series of excellent papers, showed that the statistics in WMAP data were spoiled by foreground contaminations and other effects, thus "absence of evidence" (for the mached circles) is not "evidence for absence"!
You're right on a point : the arxiv article you mention is not quite up to date since it comes from a talk I gave two years ago (you should know that the process of editing conference proceedings takes a very long time).
To be up to date and realize that some OTHER people see the merits of PDS (Poincaré Dodecahedral Space) still better than me, you should read New Scientist 12 january 2008 p.13 "Our finite wraparound universe" by Z. Merali, and
http://www.obspm.fr/actual/nouvelle/feb08/PDS.en.shtml
And this is just the beginning. The BBC Focus Magazine is preparing something, and my book "The Wraparound Universe" is going to be published at AK Peters, see the review by Amanda Gefter in New Scientist magazine, 16 February 2008, page 46

Personally I think the idea is elegant, but sterile. It is too elaborate and, somehow, delicate. I can't imagine it undergoing inflation, or a cosmological bounce, or any of the other hurlyburly rough-and-tumble stuff that a robust universe might have to go thru. That is just my intuitive feeling about it. Some of the pros here may have a different take.

Thank you for "elegant", but for "sterile", it's much too soon to judge. By the way, models of low-scale inflation (see e.g. A. Linde) are quite compatible with PDS (they have even been devised for that, proof that the PDS idea was not so sterile!).

 

[Cørd]

This is weird ****.

 

[wolram]

Surprising may be that there is so much information in WMAP , is there other evidence to back up PDS?

 

[hejin]

While we base all our discussions on the sole assumption that Cosmic Radiation only come from Big Bang, we may look at the assumption that Cosmic Radiation comes from any position and any time in the large scale universe. Before we explore the new assumption we should wait for Gravity Probe B result which is only 3 more months ahead!

 

[jal]

Hi luminet!
I hope that you keep track of these forums.
I'm an amateur on a quest to try to understand what is being done to try to figure out how the universe is made.
I would like to ask you some questions.
jal

 

[marcus]

We are honored by a visit from J-P Luminet, who is a world-class scientist and a creative cosmologogist of the first rank.

It would be very welcome here if he wants to provide additional exposition of his ideas. Personally I do not intend to argue against, or express any further skepticism. I think it unlikely that anyone else would provide any but a hospitable reception.

 

[shalayka]

Without going into personal theories, because I am not allowed to, I am 100% sold on the idea of a universal structure that relies on the fundamental number $$\sqrt{5}$$ (and the 120-cell).

Of course, I'm not a professional, but I'm also not a numerologist. Maybe I'll get published some day and be able to add to the evidence. Until then, I hope others with "pedigree" will be able to continue to progress in this area of research.

 

[jal]

Hi luminet!

I am still gathering information. Your point of view would be appreciated.

Jean-Pierre Luminet has analysed the CMB and projected the results into the future and he came up with “The Poincaré Dodecahedral Space model”.
The projection of their analysis is into the future. It is based on the “past” topological conditions prior the CMB.
Therefore, as said by Jean-Pierre Luminet, “… alternative explanations may still be found, the simplest one being …”, ( here I insert another possibility), we are observing the structure prior the CMB which is made up of hydrogen (H III).

You can look at my blog for the references that I have found concerning hydrogen and the thread https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?p=1614610#post1614610 Solid hydrogen and astrophysic.
----------
Reference
http://arxiv.org/abs/0802.2236
The Shape and Topology of the Universe
Authors: Jean-Pierre Luminet
(Submitted on 15 Feb 2008)

“Thus the CMB temperature fluctuations look like Chladni patterns resulting from a complicated three-dimensional drumhead that vibrated for 380 000 years. They yield a wealth of information about the physical conditions that prevailed in the early Universe, as well as present geometrical properties like space curvature and topology. More precisely, density fluctuations may be expressed as combinations of the vibrational modes of space, just as the vibration of a drumhead may be expressed as a combination
of the drumhead's harmonics.”
--------
http://www.obspm.fr/actual/nouvelle/feb08/PDS.en.shtml
The Poincaré Dodecahedral Space model
"… the last data obtained by the WMAP satellite and found a topological signal characteristic of the PDS geometry."
---------
http://arxiv.org/abs/0705.0217
A new analysis of Poincaré dodecahedral space model
Authors: S. Caillerie, M. Lachièze-Rey, J.-P. Luminet, R. Lehoucq, A. Riazuelo, J. Weeks
(Submitted on 2 May 2007 (v1), last revised 1 Oct 2007 (this version, v2))
"… Such a distribution of matter fluctuations generates a temperature distribution on the CMB that results from different physical effects.
If we subtract foreground contamination, it will mainly be generated by the ordinary Sachs-Wolfe (OSW) effect at large scales, resulting from the energy exchanges between the CMB photons and the time-varying gravitational fields on the last scattering surface (LSS)."

"Clearly the power spectrum alone cannot confirm a multi-connected cosmological model. Although the PDS model fits the WMAP3 power spectrum better than the standard flat infinite model does, alternative explanations may still be found, the simplest one being an intrinsically non-scale invariant spectrum."
--------
jal

 

[Ulysees]

Dr J-P Luminet, there are some ancient Greek esoterical texts, about the role of dodecahedrons in the universe.

The universe was believed to be made up of extremely small dodecahedrons, which when put together form one large dodecahedron.

Are you aware of these ancient esoteric texts? I think the idea is from the Pythagoreans.

 

[pseudo]

Lets get a bit of brain-storming going...

What shape is the universe?


Is it infinite in all three dimensions of x, y, z ?

Is it spherical?

i hav an answer for this. our universe is infinite. the flux from the far off objects reduces vit square of the distance(inverse square law).coming to the shape it is flat because laws of euclidean geometry work on flat universe. suppose draw a triangle on a flat surface, u vil get thet sum of all angles of a triangle is 180 deg.but draw the same triangle on a sphere. amazingly u vil get all angles as 90 deg. so it doesn't obey the previous statement. as this cannot be used in solving problems on the distances and general theory v accept our universe to be flat. i would like a feedback !

 

[luminet]

Dr J-P Luminet, there are some ancient Greek esoterical texts, about the role of dodecahedrons in the universe.

The universe was believed to be made up of extremely small dodecahedrons, which when put together form one large dodecahedron.

Are you aware of these ancient esoteric texts? I think the idea is from the Pythagoreans.

Sure. According to Iamblichus, it was the pythagorean Hypasus of Metapontum
who for the first time constructed the figure of the dodecahedron. In his Life of
Pythagoras, he related the fact that divulging in writing how to construct a quasiperfect
sphere starting from 12 pentagons was such an impious act that Hypasus
perished in the sea. Iamblichus added that Hypasus had boasted of a discovery
whose merit went back to the supreme master himself, Pythagoras! The latter
would have been intrigued by the shape of the pyrite crystals thatwere to be found
in Sicily, where he lived. Pyrite presents 12 slightly irregular pentagonal faces,
and this shape would have led Pythagoras to interest himself in the golden ratio,
which can be deduced from the construction of regular polygons. Since then,
the dodecahedron has been charged with a heavy symbolism. The number five,
associated to the number of sides of its polygonal faces, plays a particular role in
occultism: the pentacle or five-pointed star, inside of which are inscribed letters,
words, and signs, is supposed to translate a universal structure. The number 12,
which is the number of faces, put it naturally in correspondence with the 12 signs
of the zodiac, the 12 months of the year, the 12 apostles, and so forth. Bronze
artifacts of gallo-roman origin have been found in dodecahedral form.
Numerous artists have drawn polyhedra, including Piero della Francesca,
Leonardo da Vinci, Durer, and Escher (whose brother was a professor of crystallography
at Leiden University). Salvador Dali, in particular, painted the impressive
Sacrament of the Last Supper, which takes place in a room of dodecahedral
shape, surrounded with large pentagonal bay windows.

 

[edjoyce]

The universe is a sphere

In answer to the question I propose that the universe is a type of sphere - although this is not necessarily a helpful way to look at it.

The problem relates to the properties of light. If we look at the case where someone fires a bullet if we see the flash of the muzzle we can move away from the bullet and if we are quick enough can extend our life by a few hundredths of a second.

In the case of a laser there is no way to change the amount of time yo will live. Even if you move towards the laser you will not be hit quicker.

This has two effects

1. Everywhere appears to be the centre of the universe including where we are.

2. The only areas of the universe that we cannot see are those that were created over half the way through the life of the universe. We can see objects that were created at the start of the universe.

The above is only my working assumption - I have found it very difficult to get clear answers to these questions and hence have joined this forum.

Ed Joyce

 

[Ulysees]

Salvador Dali, in particular, painted the impressive
Sacrament of the Last Supper, which takes place in a room of dodecahedral
shape, surrounded with large pentagonal bay windows.

Here's the painting. Does anyone know what it is trying to convey? They look like demonic priests to me. Is that because knowledge of dodecahedrons and the shape of the universe, is secret occult knowledge?

 

[dailewis]

take a look at this photograph, it might shed some light on the mystery

http://picasaweb.google.com/dailewis1977/TheSkyAtNight#5504832522705100546"