Is Physics Supposed to Consume Your Entire Life?

[Rebooter]

I think these facts are self-evident. Take the bottom 25% of MIT students and the top 25% of students from any public school, let's say UCLA. Measuring by SAT scores for the upper and lower quartile as published by college board. These correspond almost exactly.

680,740 for upper quartile at UCLA and 670,740 for lower quartile at MIT. Scores are Critical Reading and Math, respectively.

I go to a respectable tier 1 state university and have a 4.0, it's not really an accomplishment, more like a certificate that you're not a complete dimwit.

As someone that graduated from a HYSP undergrad then switched gears back to a tier 1 state school for 2 years more, I can attest to this fact.

Last semester I took nearly 3 times as many classes (all high level math/science) than in my worst semester at HYSP and worked 20-30 hours per week. I still have my 4.0 here.

Also even assuming that "SAT/ACT scores do not correlate to GPAs in college" (they do actually) what does it mean if a MIT student in the top 25% SAT/ACT scores for that school winds up being lower 25% in GPA?
I certainly don't think you could make any reasonable argument that they'd be even close to bottom 25% at any tier 1 state school.

 

[holomorphic]

At this point you all have strayed pretty far from the OP's question, and have begun re-hashing a debate that has taken place in other threads. This is a dead thread.

 

[Dembadon]

Again, if you are out there doing superficial research you will come up with nothing. State schools do not advertise their inability to place students into highly desirable jobs.

However let's take 2010 summers for front office analysts at Barcap:
Penn/Wharton 12
Harvard 4
NYU/Stern 5
P/Y 2-3
Penn State, ASU, and Cal Poly had one kid each.
Lehigh and Notre Dame had 2-3 each.
BC had 4.

That means at Penn State you had a 0.002% shot at getting an offer from one of the largest banks in the US (there aren't many of them... and that is a ton of summers).
Citigroup for instance had around 140 summers and 47 of them were from UPenn which is a 1-5% chance (upwards of 2000 times greater than Penn state or ASU had at Barcap)

Hell the data I can find shows only sporadic chances (1 kid from this state school here and another from a totally different one at this other firm).
Maybe 2-3 per 50,000 land these lucrative jobs?
I'm sure it's not because they're "too good" for it or anything.

Why are you providing information about analyst positions at Barclays? Weren't we talking about engineering degrees/positions?

I guess I could've been more precise with my previous response. Do you think that the hiring practices/preferences of engineering and finance are comparable? If so, how? Do you believe that the rank of one's undergraduate school is as important to employers seeking engineers as those who are seeking to fill business/finance positions? If so, what is your reason for thinking this?

Edit: Just saw Holo's post. He's right, this has gone off-topic, and I don't want to perpetuate an off-topic discussion.

*backs away from thread*

 

[Rebooter]

Why are you providing information about analyst positions at Barclays? Weren't we talking about engineering degrees/positions?

I guess I could've been more precise with my previous response. Do you think that the hiring practices/preferences of engineering and finance are comparable? If so, how? Do you believe that the rank of one's undergraduate school is as important to employers seeking engineers as those who are seeking to fill business/finance positions? If so, what is your reason for thinking this?

A similar statistical analysis (based upon engineering placement) at these schools is possible. Luckily places like MIT/Stanford etc try to document their placement and into what companies for their classes.

It's very very hard to come up with this data for even tier 1 state schools, but I know from first hand experience it is much much worse...
I'm sure many 2nd tier state schools cannot even employ all of their engineering grads into their fields, let alone provide real opportunities for management level work.

Looking at the available data from a scientific perspective, what I say is not far fetched at all, and is well supported by available data (that opportunities even for C level engineers from top schools are pretty good).
I see no reason to reject this data because it is "uncomfortable"

 

[mathwonk]

I respectfully suggest that any thread with a title like this go directly into the spam filter.

 

[Jokerhelper]

A similar statistical analysis (based upon engineering placement) at these schools is possible. Luckily places like MIT/Stanford etc try to document their placement and into what companies for their classes.

It's very very hard to come up with this data for even tier 1 state schools, but I know from first hand experience it is much much worse...
I'm sure many 2nd tier state schools cannot even employ all of their engineering grads into their fields, let alone provide real opportunities for management level work.

Looking at the available data from a scientific perspective, what I say is not far fetched at all, and is well supported by available data (that opportunities even for C level engineers from top schools are pretty good).
I see no reason to reject this data because it is "uncomfortable"

Other than the fact you really haven't presented any that proves your claims.

 

[Rebooter]

Other than the fact you really haven't presented any that proves your claims.

I've given you plenty of supporting evidence.
I have seen no contrary evidence and until a new theory is developed or new evidence provided I will stick with the most empirically valid.

 

[Color_of_Cyan]

I respectfully suggest that any thread with a title like this go directly into the spam filter.

Haha, you have a Pikachu avatar. Believe me though, there are a bunch of people out there who have the same trouble I'm having, and would basically say the exact same thing. But I am starting to see now that you guys aren't really here for that at all, so okay.

Yeah I think I've posted this thread on the totally wrong website judging from most of the replies here thus far. Maybe this thread would fit better on the Social Anxiety forums instead. I'll stick around if I want help on actual physics homework questions from here though, and I will just keep on trying in the meantime.

__

Let me get this straight from those already engaged in the other topic of this thread though: If I go to a school that is not really so "good" then I basically have zero chance at life after college then, even if I do graduate? If yes then that would mean the same for a good majority of normal American students.

Bourgeois and proletariat all over again after all, so it seems. What ever happened to the notion of the American Dream anyway? Can we not all just be winners if we try?

 

[Rebooter]

Let me get this straight from those already engaged in the other topic of this thread though: If I go to a school that is not really so "good" then I basically have zero chance at life after college then, even if I do graduate? If yes then that would mean the same for a good majority of normal American students.

Bourgeois and proletariat all over again after all, so it seems. What ever happened to the notion of the American Dream anyway? Can we not all just be winners if we try?

Someone told you a dirty lie.

There is some meritocratic movement, but very little.
Also, the good majority of normal American students are unemployed or doing things wildly outside of their majors for terribly poor wages.

 

[lisab]

Someone told you a dirty lie.

There is some meritocratic movement, but very little.
Also, the good majority of normal American students are unemployed or doing things wildly outside of their majors for terribly poor wages.

Oops! Rebooter, this isn't the Lame Jokes thread...that's in General Discussion!

Seriously - if you're going to make this claim, post a credible link backing it up.

 

[Rebooter]

Oops! Rebooter, this isn't the Lame Jokes thread...that's in General Discussion!

Seriously - if you're going to make this claim, post a credible link backing it up.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=125554704

http://www.loudountimes.com/index.php/news/article/recent_college_grads_struggle_to_find_work789/

http://www.newsweek.com/2009/01/16/the-end-of-upward-mobility.html

Most notably the quote: "But since 2000, young people with college educations—except those who go to elite colleges and graduate schools—have seen their wages decline."

Of course, doing even moderate levels of superficial research would reveal this information...
Just look around you...

The worst part is looking at the purchasing power, not even the actual drop in wages seen. Jobs that pay in the top 5%? Well you have to be in the top 0.5% to get them (based solely upon performance of course).
Whatever meritocratic views you've been spoon-fed you should abandon quickly. Even as someone that went to one of these "elite" schools, I hold no delusions about having access to real capital (the capital necessary to really initiate a new idea)

 

[DrummingAtom]

Someone told you a dirty lie.

There is some meritocratic movement, but very little.
Also, the good majority of normal American students are unemployed or doing things wildly outside of their majors for terribly poor wages.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=125554704

http://www.loudountimes.com/index.php/news/article/recent_college_grads_struggle_to_find_work789/

http://www.newsweek.com/2009/01/16/the-end-of-upward-mobility.html

Most notably the quote: "But since 2000, young people with college educations—except those who go to elite colleges and graduate schools—have seen their wages decline."

Of course, doing even moderate levels of superficial research would reveal this information...
Just look around you...

The worst part is looking at the purchasing power, not even the actual drop in wages seen. Jobs that pay in the top 5%? Well you have to be in the top 0.5% to get them (based solely upon performance of course).
Whatever meritocratic views you've been spoon-fed you should abandon quickly. Even as someone that went to one of these "elite" schools, I hold no delusions about having access to real capital (the capital necessary to really initiate a new idea)

My emphasis in both quotes.

I'm confused on what you're trying to say here, did you mean college grads in the first quote?

In the second quote I emphasis the part I completely disagree with. If I want to go off "superficial research", I'll look at 5 of my engineering friends that just graduated in Dec 2010 and now all have jobs. 3 of them had job offers a month *before* they graduated. I should note they all have these jobs in their fields too. How do you explain that?

The 2 of the 3 links you posted to support your claim were sob stories about 3 different students struggling to find jobs. The last one doesn't really say much either to support what you're saying.

How do you explain these:

http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.t04.htm

http://www.bls.gov/emp/ep_chart_001.htm

I will say that I can't find any data that strictly shows something like "employment for 25 year old and younger by education" because that would show us the data we're both looking for.

Throughout this thread, you've thrown around your opinion with no evidence and still continue it. Why?

 

[Rebooter]

My emphasis in both quotes.

I'm confused on what you're trying to say here, did you mean college grads in the first quote?

In the second quote I emphasis the part I completely disagree with. If I want to go off "superficial research", I'll look at 5 of my engineering friends that just graduated in Dec 2010 and now all have jobs. 3 of them had job offers a month *before* they graduated. I should note they all have these jobs in their fields too. How do you explain that?

The 2 of the 3 links you posted to support your claim were sob stories about 3 different students struggling to find jobs. The last one doesn't really say much either to support what you're saying.

How do you explain these:

http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.t04.htm

http://www.bls.gov/emp/ep_chart_001.htm

I will say that I can't find any data that strictly shows something like "employment for 25 year old and younger by education" because that would show us the data we're both looking for.

Unemployment is not the same as median wages and the BLS calculates this crap in questionable ways (it doesn't include recent grads that have not been able to find paid work).
Engineering is another matter... an engineer making $50k now (well above average for starting salaries) is actually making the same amount (not even bothering with inflation) that an engineer was making in the 70s.

If universities were honest and had to report 100% of their students, where they went, what their salaries were, etc... that'd solve it. But for whatever reason it seems more morally correct to present false information.

Throughout this thread, you've thrown around your opinion with no evidence and still continue it. Why?

I've given you plenty of supporting evidence (from better sources than the BLS). Engineers be damned when considering employment data. Even at engineering schools they generally do not even comprise 50% of their classes and are far more employable than their counterparts (employable at a decent wage, is of course, another story).

To answer the why? I have nothing better to do sometimes. My school won't let me take above 28 credit hours this semester, and it's not enough to keep me busy. I do other things, but working during the nighttime isn't productive.

There's also disturbing data coming to light (especially in the last 5 yrs) that most college students (about 60%) gain no increase in intellectual, reasoning or writing capacity after 4 years of school.
The market will realize this sooner or later... and the application of this knowledge is clearly changing the employment landscape already

http://www.azcentral.com/business/consumer/articles/2008/07/17/20080717biz-DegreeValue0717.html

"The government's statistical snapshots show the typical weekly salary of a worker with a bachelor's degree, adjusted for inflation, didn't rise last year from 2006 and was 1.7 percent below the 2001 level."

 

[DrummingAtom]

Unemployment is not the same as median wages and the BLS calculates this crap in questionable ways.
Engineering is another matter... an engineer making $50k now (well above average for starting salaries) is actually making the same amount (not even bothering with inflation) that an engineer was making in the 70s.

If universities were honest and had to report 100% of their students, where they went, what their salaries were, etc... that'd solve it. But for whatever reason it seems more morally correct to present false information.

I've given you plenty of evidence. Engineers be damned when considering employment data. Even at engineering schools they generally do not even comprise 50% of their classes and are far more employable than their counterparts (employable at a decent wage, is of course, another story).

I never said that unemployment is the same as median wages. And no you haven't given me any evidence, it's been your "logic" and stories. Also, the BLS is really the only thing I can find so if you don't like it find another source, but you have yet to provide it even though you continually say you have to me and others.

 

[Rebooter]

I never said that unemployment is the same as median wages. And no you haven't given me any evidence, it's been your "logic" and stories. Also, the BLS is really the only thing I can find so if you don't like it find another source, but you have yet to provide it even though you continually say you have to me and others.

The BLS data has absolutely nothing to do with the wider trend here.

It presents a snapshot of data from graduates who haven't graduated since 2007 (a majority not even graduating within the 2000s).

 

[DrummingAtom]

The BLS data has absolutely nothing to do with the wider trend here.

It presents a snapshot of data from graduates who haven't graduated since 2007 (a majority not even graduating within the 2000s).

Again, I never said any about wages. The BLS links I gave you shows employment statistics, that's what I'm arguing. You can have the wages argument, I really don't care to argue that one because I agree with it.

I just get annoyed when people go around saying things like "the good majority of normal American students are unemployed." Then have no real data to prove it, because in all actuality (as you mentioned in previous threads) it's very hard to find such data especially from colleges. For instance, my school did a survey of recent grads(Spring 2010) and only about 25% of my major responded and out of those 90% were employed after 6 months of graduating. Who knows what happened to the other 75% of the respondents, and yes it's a little scary to think maybe a large chunk of that 75% are still looking for jobs. That data is so frustrating to go off, but we can't make up our own stories about what they're doing now.

And I agree with you again that the BLS could be hokey data too, but at least they have some more serious numbers behind the data. All in all, I think it's a lose lose situation in searching for real answers through this mess.

 

[Color_of_Cyan]

I have nothing better to do sometimes. My school won't let me take above 28 credit hours this semester, and it's not enough to keep me busy. I do other things, but working during the nighttime isn't productive.

I love you.