Is Principia Mathematica outdated?

  • Thread starter 1qaz2wsx3edc
  • Start date
  • Tags
    Mathematica
In summary: A complete and consistent theory would have to include a way to tell which models are actually true, and which are just models. And that's really impossible, according to Godel.In summary, Hurkyl is considering reading "Godel, Escher, Bach, an Eternal Golden Braid" by Hofstadter. He is concerned that the book is outdated and may not be helpful. He is also curious about other resources that might be helpful.
  • #36
Hurkyl said:
Statements don't have truth values, not even tautologies. "Truth" is a matter of semantics -- e.g. each set-theoretic interpretation yields a truth valuation: a function that maps the set of statements to the set {true, false}. (and a model of a theory is one in which each of its theorems map to true)

Interesting, it makes sense that only a set-theoretic interpretation determines the truth of any well-defined statement in set theory. But still, I have thought of the undecidability of CH as something different. I have thought of (the interpretation of) CH as a statement not bearing a truth value regardless of any set-theoretic interpretation (in which CH is interpreted), thus differentiating this "type" of undecidability from the pure syntactical statements, which are not bearing any truth value.

EDIT: By context I meant a set-theoretic interpretation.

Hurkyl said:
CH is undecided in ZFC because it is neither provable nor disprovable. CH is, of course, provable in ZFC+CH.

For any particular (classical) model of ZFC, the truth value of CH is either true or false.

Oh, so it does make sense to call a statement provable if it doesn't bear a truth value. Using your definitions; the syntax determines the provability of a statement, but CH is not provable (in ZFC).

If so, how does it make sense to call CH semantically true (or false) in a set-theoretic interpretation of ZFC if it is syntactically unprovable (in ZFC)?
 
Last edited:
Physics news on Phys.org
  • #37
Jarle said:
If so, how does it make sense to call CH semantically true (or false) in a set-theoretic interpretation of ZFC if it is syntactically unprovable (in ZFC)?

The statement E = "'Elephant' is a natural number" is unprovable in Peano arithmetic. In the model

"0" = 0
"S(x)" = x + 1
"N" = {0, 1, 2, ...}

E is false, because Elephant is not a member of {0, 1, 2, ...}. In the model

"0" = 1
"S(x)" = 2x
"N" = {1, 2, 4, 8, 16, ...}

E is also false, because Elephant is not a member of {1, 2, 4, 8, 16, ...}. In the model

"0" = Elephant
"S(x)" = -3, if x = Elephant, and x + 2 otherwise
"N" = {Elephant, -3, -1, 1, 3, 5, ...}

E is true, because Elephant is a member of {Elephant, -3, -1, 1, 3, 5, ...}.
 
  • #38
CRGreathouse said:
The statement E = "'Elephant' is a natural number" is unprovable in Peano arithmetic. In the model

I see your point, but this means that proof (like that of the non-existence of the elephant) also is relevant in the semantical realm. I thought provability, in Hurkyls definitions, was restricted to the syntax of the formal language and the semantics merely brought a truth function to all well-formed statements.
 
  • #39
Jarle said:
I have thought of (the interpretation of) CH as a statement not bearing a truth value regardless of any set-theoretic interpretation (in which CH is interpreted), thus differentiating this "type" of undecidability from the pure syntactical statements, which are not bearing any truth value.

EDIT: By context I meant a set-theoretic interpretation.

No, CH will be true or false in a given model/interpretation. For example, in the constructable universe L the CH is true.
 
  • #40
To be honest, set theory seems to me quite superfluous to mathematics in general. It can be interesting in itself, but it (or any similar theory) does not (in my opinion) deserve the status as any kind of "foundation of mathematics".
 

Similar threads

Replies
1
Views
1K
Replies
2
Views
1K
Replies
2
Views
2K
Replies
22
Views
3K
Replies
8
Views
2K
Back
Top