Is returning to school sensible for me?

[physics_enthusiast]

Hi everyone,

This will be a long post. I spent a few days mulling over what I wanted to say. I’m not sure I have thought of everything, but I covered a good body of what has gone through my mind, with any other details I’ll bring up as they pertain for any good Samaritan who can offer any advice or their thoughts on making this career change. Thank you in advance.
For the last few years, I have been considering a career change into physics. Or at least, I want to explore the possibility.

It is hard for me to know how far I want (or can) make a commitment to this change because I lack the right experience in physics, or the sciences, to ascertain that. Reading about careers in physics can only inform so much. My thoughts on this career change are motivated primarily by an emotional inclination.

I am not a fan of putting all my eggs in one basket. I have been casting my net wide to explore as many possible physics careers that may interest me. Whether I ended up working towards professorship or in a R&D capacity doesn’t have immediate importance for me right now until I go through some schooling experience in physics. My biggest concern with where I take my career is making decisions that are based on industry/academic platitudes or cliches. This was a big issue in undergraduate. In hindsight, I suspect people deliberately misled me whenever I would seek out advice, putting me in a position where I was blind and trying to lead myself. I want to avoid this again, even if that requires taking my time in this journey.

As far as time constraints go, as I’ve mentioned, I don’t mind taking my time only if I can clearly demonstrate that my time is being spent diligently towards my goals. Expertise takes time, so I want to move steadily and carefully. As long as I am spending my time diligently, I will be able to keep going. There are a lot of things I want to learn in my life, and physics is one of them. To me, physics will be a life-long discipline I maintain, no different than music or visual arts. I want to go as far as I reasonably can, and when things start to require sacrifices in my current lifestyle, then I will re-evaluate based on how far I have gotten and where my life stands at that point.

When I went to college, I first wanted to go into physics because I was very fascinated by being able to study a topic that focuses on understanding the different fundamental elements and moving pieces making up our world. I felt that the knowledge and skills required to study a subject like that would aid me in being a much more adaptable learner in any other subject in the future.

I later switched to mathematics because I felt like it was a subject better equipped for achieving that learning goal, and because I was deeply interested in learning the background and context behind a lot of the introductory mathematics I was taught throughout high school all the way through linear algebra & calculus. I also studied computer science because I was being misguided in commonly held advice that it would prepare me for a programming job (it turned out to be a fairly different discipline). In mathematics, I did poorly for preparedness and emotional/mental health related reasons that I have since overcome. I feel very blessed for my good health these days.

By the end of my time in undergraduate, I felt that I had very little opportunities left for me besides to go to work, so I finished schooling early with only a computer science degree (and math minor) to save on tuition expenses.

After a poor first job experience, and then a long time unemployed (1 year, couple months – it was a terrifying experience), I finally moved onto my current company, where I am very comfortably employed in advanced analytics -- although I am very underpaid (I hope to eventually get salary raises). I still live with my parents, and I live by the state school I went to undergrad, which I know I will have to return to when I planned out possible paths to return to school. While I am perfectly content with my life where it is so far, I still want to be able to plan for my future, wherever it may lead me.

Right now, my biggest concern is working around my work schedule to fit in required classes at my state school, if I were to be re-enrolled. I think it would be wise of me to re-enroll for a second bachelor’s degree because of my complete lack of exposure in physics on a collegiate level. This will also give me some opportunity for exposure to lab work, assuming I will be able to fit it into my day-to-day schedule. While Master’s degrees are offered at my state school, I am not confident that doing only 2 years will make me competitive enough for valuable post-graduate experience, whether it is pursuing a PhD or going into a new job. If anything, I am expecting to do both another bachelor’s and a Master’s to be as competitive as can be in my education background, if need be.

My secondary concern is that my GPA from my first bachelor’s degree will be very restrictive on me with how competitive I can be in returning to school. A couple years ago I called my school’s registrar (I think, I can’t remember which office I had to speak to) and they told me that GPAs from credited classes cannot be cleared or reset, so I am stuck with my poor grades for life. My primary concern here is my upper level math courses which lowered my GPA – I did not do well in them (a few C’s and C+’s, luckily I never outright failed a class). My overall GPA is a 3.47. I have crunched the numbers: it will not change much if I were to return for my second bachelor’s, even with a perfect 4.0 major GPA in my second degree.

Personal feelings on GPA practices aside, am I effectively gated out of better opportunities in graduate school opportunities for life?

I plan on enrolling in my community college to go through introductory classes before I transfer credits to my state school.

 

[Dale]

While I am perfectly content with my life where it is so far, I still want to be able to plan for my future,

So why change then? Before giving advice we need to know what problem you are trying to address.

 

[physics_enthusiast]

So why change then? Before giving advice we need to know what problem you are trying to address.

My life revolves almost entirely around going to work and then spending some time developing new skills in my various hobbies. I landed in my current company (consequently, career) entirely through happenstance. The opportunity was presented, I had the background for it, and decided to take it. I am about to enter my 3rd consecutive year into my career, so I am very much a fresh out of school early careerist.

While it is admittedly very comfortable, I do have some concerns about my long-term career growth (skills development & increasing salary) and personal satisfaction with spending my life continuing as things currently are. To specifically answer the question, it feels like my life is passing by and I am living passively. Like being an audience member in a movie.

My thinking is that because I am still very early into my career, if I am going to set a bold goal for myself, I may as well shoot for the moon (you know the saying). I still don't have many outside responsibilities placed on me that would limit, or make difficult, what I can pursue for myself. And the restraints I do have, are things I will have to be confident in making decisions on (at the end of the day, I'm going to end up somewhere anyways, including not making any change).

 

[Dale]

To specifically answer the question, it feels like my life is passing by and I am living passively. Like being an audience member in a movie

While going back to school to get a physics degree is admirable, I don’t think that it will address this specific concern. After spending a few years, many 10’s of thousands of dollars in direct costs, and 100 or 200 thousand dollars in opportunity costs you will be in the same situation again. You will be looking for a job and what is to prevent falling into another one by happenstance?

My personal recommendation would be to start looking for your next job with your current qualifications. Just be deliberate this time. Also, look for meaning and direction to your life outside of your career

 

[Vanadium 50]

I plan on enrolling in my community college to go through introductory classes before I transfer credits to my state school.

So why do you need advice now, before seeing how that goes?

 

[CrysPhys]

OP:

Given your current starting scenario, a bachelor's in physics will likely not provide you the basis for a satisfying next career. And in the US, a master's in physics will provide little extra value for enhanced career opportunities. So you will need a PhD in physics. But before you start on that path, reflect on the caveat I recently posted in another thread:

* With perhaps an outlier or two, a PhD in Physics is no guarantee of a long-term career in physics (or even physics-related) research. Others have discussed the minuscule opportunities for attaining a tenured professorship at a university. But even in industry, there are no guarantees. I'm in the US. I got my bachelor's at a top undergrad school and my PhD at a top research university. I then landed an R&D position at a top industrial lab. But after a relatively short 8 years (relative to 4 yrs undergrad plus 7 yrs grad), there was an industry-wide meltdown. I was then faced with a "Should I stay, or should I go?" scenario of my own. If I wanted to stay in the field I loved, I would need to uproot my family and move (or else split my family). If I wanted to keep my family intact and not relocate, I would need to switch fields. I chose to switch fields. And I switched fields several more times during my career in response to corporate and industry-wide "business conditions".

 

[physics_enthusiast]

So why do you need advice now, before seeing how that goes?

I wanted to preemptively seek advice to keep in my back pocket so that I'll have the added time of thinking over what could be shared with me and reflecting as events play out.

 

[gleem]

There were some statements in the OP that struck me so I commented on them. If I misinterpreted their meaning and my response was not appropriate to you I apologize.

It is hard for me to know how far I want (or can) make a commitment to this change because I lack the right experience in physics, or the sciences, to ascertain that.

Many of us who are physicists lacked experience in physics to start but made the commitment. You are not alone.

My thoughts on this career change are motivated primarily by an emotional inclination.

@physics_enthusiast: decisions made by emotional inclinations can be risky or just dumb.

I am not a fan of putting all my eggs in one basket.

Sure putting your eggs in one basket means you have to hold onto it tightly but it becomes a commitment that can put you on a path to success.

Whether I ended up working towards professorship or in a R&D capacity doesn’t have immediate importance for me right now until I go through some schooling experience in physics.

This is a good point especially not knowing whether or not you can keep from stumbling in the process.

My biggest concern with where I take my career is making decisions that are based on industry/academic platitudes or cliches. This was a big issue in undergraduate. In hindsight, I suspect people deliberately misled me whenever I would seek out advice, putting me in a position where I was blind and trying to lead myself. I want to avoid this again, even if that requires taking my time in this journey.

Platitudes/cliches like what, "Be Alll You Can Be? OK, don't go blaming others for your failures. Fooled once shame on you, Fooled twice shame on us.

As far as time constraints go, as I’ve mentioned, I don’t mind taking my time only if I can clearly demonstrate that my time is being spent diligently towards my goals.

Just "Do It" Thinking about this that is just what I did. I did it to learn and see where it would take me and what opportunities might open up. Aah, flexibility is very important these days.

Expertise takes time, so I want to move steadily and carefully. As long as I am spending my time diligently,

Along with hard work and practice. and again it's up to you.

I want to go as far as I reasonably can, and when things start to require sacrifices in my current lifestyle, then I will re-evaluate based on how far I have gotten and where my life stands at that point.

You certainly don't want to let physics get in the way of your current lifestyle. If this is one of your guiding principles then perhaps you might want to reconsider the object of this post.

I felt that the knowledge and skills required to study a subject like that would aid me in being a much more adaptable learner in any other subject in the future.

Yes, I agree. I have seen this in a lot of my friends and colleagues.

I was being misguided in commonly held advice that it would prepare me for a programming job (it turned out to be a fairly different discipline)

I don't think you were misguided. Mathematics is important in the solution of many problems that are solved by computers. Coding different languages is a tool. If you don't know the math you can't solve the problem even if you are the best coder.

After a poor first job experience, and then a long time unemployed (1 year, couple months – it was a terrifying experience), I finally moved onto my current company, where I am very comfortably employed in advanced analytics -- although I am very underpaid (I hope to eventually get salary raises).

Somehow this does not seem surprising. You may very well be underpaid assuming that you have acquired a good amount of knowledge and experience and are contributing significantly to your job description. I would assume that you have an annual job review which should either praise your work or point out areas of improvement. You should be able to approach your supervisor if you feel that your work was not well enough appreciated. Getting no satisfaction then updating your resume emphasizing your accomplishments should help you find alternate employment. Hoping is not acting and action is needed.

While I am perfectly content with my life where it is so far, I still want to be able to plan for my future, wherever it may lead me.

But you are not content as far as I can decern.

My primary concern here is my upper level math courses which lowered my GPA – I did not do well in them (a few C’s and C+’s, luckily I never outright failed a class). My overall GPA is a 3.47.

Yes, that is a concern and should be for what might happen in advanced physics courses.

It seems that you have depended on others to give your life some direction and they have not turned out to your total satisfaction. And now you are doing it again. In this forum when a student needs help with a problem we require that they show the work they have done. You need to develop some self-confidence in your ability both in coursework and in planning or directing your own future. You said you need some schooling experience in physics to which I agree, so take some courses and evaluate your performance vs your expectations, and come back and tell us what you think. You could take some online courses to start to get an idea of what you will be up against and thereby learn your of ability to handle physics.

Other things to consider. Think about moving out of your parent's home and experience the true world. Additionally, consider putting physics as a central part of your lifestyle. If your lifestyle is a constraint on your approach to physics what makes you think physics is for you? I have a big problem with this attitude.

Good Luck.

 

[physics_enthusiast]

Many of us who are physicists lacked experience in physics to start but made the commitment. You are not alone. @physics_enthusiast: decisions made by emotional inclinations can be risky or just dumb.Sure putting your eggs in one basket means you have to hold onto it tightly but it becomes a commitment that can put you on a path to success.

You certainly don't want to let physics get in the way of your current lifestyle. If this is one of your guiding principles then perhaps you might want to reconsider the object of this post.

I grouped these sentences together since I think they are related. My science education ended when I graduated high school, I had AP credits to get out of science requirements in undergrad. I didn't take any introductory science courses in undergrad to get a sense of what it's like at the collegiate level to reflect on. I can only read about physics and feel what I feel.

I'll end up finding out once I start some introductory classes at my nearby community college. I don't think making dramatic moves all at once in my career is wise. One step at a time.

Platitudes/cliches like what, "Be Alll You Can Be? OK, don't go blaming others for your failures. Fooled once shame on you, Fooled twice shame on us.

I'm not blaming others (this is also my first time on this forum if you were referring to any past activity here). It's a common problem when people are seeking help, in any field. From math to computer science to finance to even drawing or painting. I don't think it's always out of bad intentions (shame on those who do it with underhanded bad intentions). But I don't find it productive to mislead people or obfuscate a solution to problems with platitudes. Or to uphold individuals to platitudes. All it does is bring upon judgement, sets a detrimental environment for people, and discourages people from asking for further help (who could blame them).

I'll give an example when I was in school really struggling with math once I reached my analysis class and onward. Up until this point, I was very good at more arithmetically and algorithmically driven math coursework (the likes of calculus, probability, linear algebra, etc) -- I knew how to study for that. But when I reached my proofs-based classes, my biggest struggle was the actual comprehension of the descriptive ideas as they related to the proofs, and especially the intuition in the techniques being used in proofs. I was able to recognize that I was struggling with even being able to start problems, much less solve them. But I couldn't put it into words what exactly was the issue because I thought seeing patterns in the proofs was what it meant to "comprehend" since that's all I needed for lower level coursework. I didn't realize that was not the case and that there is more to comprehension on a higher level.
But obviously, people cannot ask for help with things that they don't even know about. They lack the words to ask for help, or to even help themselves (especially within a time constraint like a semester or a few days or weeks).

Outside a professor's office hours, and what I could find on the internet, I would reach out to my peers who had progressed further in coursework than me for help or advice studying. I was always told that I needed to "keep practicing", "study harder", or that all they did to succeed was just "practice a lot of problems." How is it productive to tell someone to keep "practicing" (first of all, practicing what, and practicing how) when clearly there is a struggle preventing them from even practicing in any form? I explicitly shared this with people who I reached out for help too.
All I took from this experience is that this "advice" is actually just a platitude since it can be used to respond to people while telling them nothing about the nature of a problem, a possible solution, and often takes credit for positive outcomes that came from solutions completely unrelated to "just practicing" or "studying harder." When people continue to struggle, this platitude is used to punish others; laziness, not working hard enough, not trying enough. And that's exactly what happened with me and my peers, who ended up turning into bullies prioritizing a juvenile hierarchy of who's the "smartest" or "most successful". I only had a single peer who was interested in math pedagogy as well, who was able to sense the actual learning struggle I had, but was not confident she had any advice to be able to help. She was the only person who did not participate in bullying. Platitudes like this are NOT productive and effectively communicates nothing.

I went through my coursework entirely by recognizing patterns in the language being used in proofs presented during class to get through both homework and exams for lack of other options; it didn't end well.
It's not like I stopped thinking on what I was exposed to in my coursework, I continued to find the knowledge interesting and wanted to have the experience of understanding. But it took a long time for me to be able to finally comprehend the ideas and make sense of what was in textbooks I read. This was only after I was able to start putting the struggles into words, thereupon taking steps towards understanding. None of it had anything to do with "practicing" or "studying harder."

It's not just math, or even my specific experience, where this happens. This is a very common problem in art, where people can spend years and years trying to improve in drawing or painting, with no success -- it's not uncommon. Unfortunately, in the arts education, compared to math, there are even less insights into how to identify the types of learning struggles people have in improving technical skills. At least math educators and mathematicians have had some progression in identifying different learning struggles in recency.

Luckily in drawing, I had the fortune of my experience in math to be able to identify problems and work towards tangible improvements. I even worked with a few teachers separately for feedback, who also saw notable improvement (it's extremely hard to improve as a beginner relying on a visually undeveloped eye). My time in math was not without success as a result, but it had nothing to do with the platitudes my peers used to create a hostile environment.

On the other hand, my experiences in drawing did serve as evidence for myself that my teenage self was correct in thinking that being exposed to math would make me an adaptable learner. In that sense, I am very grateful to the education that I did receive. In the end, my college experience achieved its goal of providing me an education, as it was originally intended. Nowadays college is sadly a tool for achieving other goals (qualifications, employment, etc), but that's just a fact of the world we live in.

Overall, I would prefer to avoid going through the same pains in physics whenever I might need help. It's simply unproductive, achieving nothing (other than wasting people's time).

You are free to disagree with me, but I am open to DMs on the thought as to avoid having this thread focus on this separate topic.

Just "Do It" Thinking about this that is just what I did. I did it to learn and see where it would take me and what opportunities might open up. Aah, flexibility is very important these days.

Flexibility is very important, agreed! Life is long and I plan on learning everything (that I care for). But we can only live our own mere life. That's why I try to plan everything carefully to fit in as much as I can, but I agree about what you're saying by just "do it". Urgency is valuable.

I don't think you were misguided. Mathematics is important in the solution of many problems that are solved by computers. Coding different languages is a tool. If you don't know the math you can't solve the problem even if you are the best coder.

I meant the common advice that if someone wants a programming job, they should study computer science. It's not entirely true, but the real issue in the advice is that I think there's a lot of projected imagination that upholds it. Some of it is right (you get exposure to programming through the discipline), but it's not entirely being honest about careers that can involve programming (aka the illustrious tech job) which is a big motivation for the uptick in students learning the discipline.

This is not to say I didn't get anything out of studying computer science though, I definitely found it an enriching education experience. Studying computer science, and later IT post-graduation, were vital learning experiences for me in shaping my understanding of technology and how technology shapes our world and the work we do.

Agreed about mathematics and that stood out to me a lot during my studies as well. It was not a surprise to me when I found out that computer science used to be a sub-discipline in mathematics at some school departments once upon a time.

I absolutely got something out of my time studying mathematics, even if it was to set the groundwork for lessons learned post-graduation. The only piece that irritated me was not going about it differently as a matter of convenience surrounding my GPA, but things are always clearer in hindsight. In a world without GPA, I would have gone through the circuit again in math for my own pleasure. (And yes, I know I can still learn math on my own, but I enjoy being competitive in school, in a constructive way).

Somehow this does not seem surprising. You may very well be underpaid assuming that you have acquired a good amount of knowledge and experience and are contributing significantly to your job description. I would assume that you have an annual job review which should either praise your work or point out areas of improvement. You should be able to approach your supervisor if you feel that your work was not well enough appreciated. Getting no satisfaction then updating your resume emphasizing your accomplishments should help you find alternate employment. Hoping is not acting and action is needed.

For background, I'm in my current job after lateraling from a more client-facing function in a different department, both in the same company and in the same career field (career industry, but not function). It was because I lateraled that my company was being stingy about adjusting my salary to match what is expected for my current role -- they kept my salary of my previous role.
I know for certain that I am being underpaid because I had asked my HR contact the expected salary bucket (forgot the way it was specifically expressed) that my company set for my current role while I was transitioning over and was provided a salary range. They didn't budge for my case when I inquired further about my salary.
I'll be approaching my first annual review so I am hoping for the best.

It seems that you have depended on others to give your life some direction and they have not turned out to your total satisfaction. And now you are doing it again. In this forum when a student needs help with a problem we require that they show the work they have done. You need to develop some self-confidence in your ability both in coursework and in planning or directing your own future. You said you need some schooling experience in physics to which I agree, so take some courses and evaluate your performance vs your expectations, and come back and tell us what you think. You could take some online courses to start to get an idea of what you will be up against and thereby learn your of ability to handle physics.

Other things to consider. Think about moving out of your parent's home and experience the true world. Additionally, consider putting physics as a central part of your lifestyle. If your lifestyle is a constraint on your approach to physics what makes you think physics is for you? I have a big problem with this attitude.

I mentioned in an earlier post that I am hoping to get from this thread some feedback and advice that I could reflect on over time, and as events continue to play out. All the choices I made about my studies in undergraduate from even before I began have been entirely of my own decision, from my own decision to gain knowledge. I was never pushed by anyone towards a subject or discipline, nor did I have anyone to seek validation from, the two common pitfalls people face. Coupled with the fact that someone who knew nothing, has to start somewhere to begin learning.

In my OP, I do plan on at least going through introductory coursework at a community college to get a taste for things and reflecting on the experience with the advice from this thread, as well as other threads I've read over time on this discussion board. And at least, I can approach coursework at community college as a continuing education experience for myself. I am a firm believer in the value of education over a lifetime.

I agree about moving out of my parent's place. That is a separate goal I've set for myself this season, I just didn't mention it when I was writing my draft since I didn't think it would pertain to much. It will definitely be useful to have a dedicated space for my own studies, even if it doesn't end up being for physics, wherever this decision falls.

 

[Dale]

All this stuff about platitudes is pointless. When trying to solve a problem you need to keep the problem in the center.

The problem you are trying to solve is that you feel that you are living passively, like watching a movie. Studying physics will not resolve that problem, even if your studies are guided by non-platitude advice. You have jumped prematurely to a solution and have not considered if that solution is the best approach to solve your problem.

Personally, I do not think it will address the problem at all, and even if it does, it will be the most expensive way to address it.

I recommend the following exercise:

Write down your opinion of how studying physics will solve the problem. What will studying physics do that will resolve the problem?

Think of 2 or 3 other alternatives that will do the same thing or something similar. What are the costs associated with those in terms of time, direct costs, and opportunity costs? Compare those to studying physics.

Think of other things you could do that could solve your problem in a different way. How effective do you think these alternatives will be? What are those costs compared to the other approaches?

If you do this exercise I think that you will find that studying physics is the least effective and most expensive approach for resolving your problem.

Personally, I would recommend getting involved in a community service organization, or a church community that emphasizes service. One of the ways to improve your own sense of purpose is to do something that benefits others. As you focus on helping others your own sense of self worth and your “presence” in your own life will increase.

That would be my advice, get out of your own head (platitude) and your own problems and help others. Opportunities are endless, the cost is minimal, and the effects will be very fast.

 

[gleem]

For the last few years, I have been considering a career change into physics. Or at least, I want to explore the possibility.

Based on the timeline that I can infer from your OP this was about when you graduated. You gave no reason why you are thinking about changing to physics.

My science education ended when I graduated high school, I had AP credits to get out of science requirements in undergrad.

Did you take a physics course in HS? So you had no interest in science at UG?

It is hard for me to know how far I want (or can) make a commitment to this change because I lack the right experience in physics, or the sciences, to ascertain that. Reading about careers in physics can only inform so much. My thoughts on this career change are motivated primarily by an emotional inclination.

AFAIK most aspiring physicists have some intellectual motivations for a commitment to studying physics.
An emotional motivation comes after it because they enjoy physics, You can't say you enjoy physics since you don't have as you say the "right experience". If your motivation is based on reading about careers in physics then you are putting yourself at the mercy of the industry platitudes and cliches which you blame for your poor choice of a career.

I'll give an example when I was in school really struggling with math once I reached my analysis class and onward. Up until this point, I was very good at more arithmetically and algorithmically driven math coursework (the likes of calculus, probability, linear algebra, etc) -- I knew how to study for that. But when I reached my proofs-based classes, my biggest struggle was the actual comprehension of the descriptive ideas as they related to the proofs, and especially the intuition in the techniques being used in proofs.

This is a bit of a concern. You do well in rule-based math. I am surprised that you did well in Linear Algebra since it is developed extensively with proofs. Struggling with math proofs is not a good sign and somehow you will need to strengthen that area. I found an article discussing student's difficulty with proof. link below

https://maa.org/programs/faculty-an...ules and the,before they can construct proofs.

Finally, you still have some issues to work on. Planning is essential but fussing over all the negative possibilities and trying to assure that you made the right decision seems a little obsessive. You need to build up your confidence to help you make more rapid decisions. Your plan to take a physics course in a community college is a start but it is only an introduction and covers many areas but not in depth so it may not challenge you. Harder higher-level courses are usually not available in a CC. These will be your proving grounds.

We need something definite to chew on. Put some effort into it and do more research, find out what physics is all about, firm up your reasons for doing this, make a plan, and come back and we can give you our opinion.

 

[physics_enthusiast]

I think there was some amount of miscommunication on what I meant by industry/career platitudes in my original post. It's really not central to anything, other than wanting to avoid uninformative or not useful information (in general, not just this thread). I can see why it was made to seem bigger than it is from the amount of text I offered on the thought. No career or life decisions have ever been made based on them nor how I feel about them, they've mostly been sidebar obstacles for me. I think it may be worth pivoting to other details for now.

Personally, I would recommend getting involved in a community service organization, or a church community that emphasizes service. One of the ways to improve your own sense of purpose is to do something that benefits others. As you focus on helping others your own sense of self worth and your “presence” in your own life will increase.

That would be my advice, get out of your own head (platitude) and your own problems and help others. Opportunities are endless, the cost is minimal, and the effects will be very fast.

I've spent my years post-graduation focusing a lot on learning and developing new skills through my various hobbies to experience as much learning that life has to offer. To me, it was a decision of both self-empowerment and gratitude towards my opportunities as an adult (and the general pleasure of experiencing a new skill). It was also partly a matter of convenience and utility for every new skill I can pick up.
But after thinking a bit on your response, I realize that's been a perspective focused a lot on the self. I have not heard the advice to go out there and do service for others in a long time, and I think I stopped hearing it around the time I started undergrad, or somewhere early into undergrad. Unsurprisingly, I stopped hearing the advice when I was no longer surrounded by adult figures, though as a grown adult I would be referring to these people as "mentors." Somewhere along the way I seem to have forgotten about this possibility.

I will look into what's out there for me. It may serve as the start of a new era in my life. And if I'm still curious about studying physics after some point, or during, I can always make a change.

Based on the timeline that I can infer from your OP this was about when you graduated. You gave no reason why you are thinking about changing to physics.
Did you take a physics course in HS? So you had no interest in science at UG?

AFAIK most aspiring physicists have some intellectual motivations for a commitment to studying physics.
An emotional motivation comes after it because they enjoy physics, You can't say you enjoy physics since you don't have as you say the "right experience". If your motivation is based on reading about careers in physics then you are putting yourself at the mercy of the industry platitudes and cliches which you blame for your poor choice of a career.
This is a bit of a concern. You do well in rule-based math. I am surprised that you did well in Linear Algebra since it is developed extensively with proofs. Struggling with math proofs is not a good sign and somehow you will need to strengthen that area. I found an article discussing student's difficulty with proof. link below

https://maa.org/programs/faculty-and-departments/curriculum-department-guidelines-recommendations/teaching-and-learning/research-sampler-8-students-difficulties-with-proof#:~:text=Knowing logical rules and the,before they can construct proofs.

Finally, you still have some issues to work on. Planning is essential but fussing over all the negative possibilities and trying to assure that you made the right decision seems a little obsessive. You need to build up your confidence to help you make more rapid decisions. Your plan to take a physics course in a community college is a start but it is only an introduction and covers many areas but not in depth so it may not challenge you. Harder higher-level courses are usually not available in a CC. These will be your proving grounds.

We need something definite to chew on. Put some effort into it and do more research, find out what physics is all about, firm up your reasons for doing this, make a plan, and come back and we can give you our opinion.

I did take a physics course in high school. My experience there, together with my math courses, was what originally motivated me towards physics in undergrad, before I pivoted to studying computer science and math. I provided my intellectual motivation in the original post:

When I went to college, I first wanted to go into physics because I was very fascinated by being able to study a topic that focuses on understanding the different fundamental elements and moving pieces making up our world. I felt that the knowledge and skills required to study a subject like that would aid me in being a much more adaptable learner in any other subject in the future.

My interest in physics was shared by my interest in math as well, I think I may have understated that or miscommunicated. I ended up choosing to go forward with math because I wanted to study a subject for my intellectual interest and satisfaction, and another subject to prepare me for employment as a safety option (hard skills development irrespective of interest, I just so happened to find computer science interesting in its own right during the process). You can disagree with the reasoning behind the choices, not saying they were thought through perfectly when I was essentially a kid, but I'm stating them as what it is.

My interest in physics still remains the same, but I now have a greater appreciation for the value of studying the natural world in its own right without fussing over intellectualizing everything (as I used to when I thought to study math instead). My appreciation grew post-graduation (likely picking up where my feelings left off from high school) when I became a lot less insecure about my capacity for knowledge and when the pressures of finding employment were not as strong.
To me, it is incredibly beautiful how physics (and chemistry) inspires engineering advancements, provides a source of modeling in the social sciences (like economics and finances), and facilitates some work in anthropology (archeology). Even arts and music have drawn upon our understanding of physics, like our understanding of pitches, or our understanding of light/color and modeling form (which is one of my favorite topics in art). I find physics shaping much of what humanity has to offer to be beautiful and elegant, like experiencing and understanding how drawing and painting shaped film and animation and being able to experience film and animation in itself as much as drawing or painting.

I want to begin studying physics to make that knowledge my own. I want to experience the even further boundaries in human knowledge that physics has to offer and to be drawn towards some specialization that particularly inspires me.

This, along with the quoted, is what keeps my interest in physics.

Do you, from your experience, feel that this motivation, as it was presented, is not a good starting point for a career in physics? Hopefully, I have expressed my feelings in a way that made sense.Next, thanks for the article! It is an interesting read. I like the breadth it covers understanding proofs progressively along a math student's usual line of studies. And I agree that it is concerning for me that I am still weak at math proofs. The only solution I have in my back pocket was to find an outside tutor to help review previous topics I covered (and other topics I didn't study in undergrad). My biggest obstacle here is coming up with a means to measure my progression in math proofs through different topics. My thought is a tutor could at least provide a grading service for me in assignments or exams that I could plan together with them. The other obstacle is finding a tutor willing to work with me to develop this skill (though I'm sure I can find someone so this is less concerning). Luckily, I have the internet to be able to find someone and facilitate this logistically.

About Linear Algebra: my school had people progress through both an introductory course (rules-based, servicing the engineering and sciences students as well), and a proofs-based course. I did not do well in the proofs-based course, even if I found lectures informative, of what I understood at the time. I did fine in the rules-based intro course. I was referring to the intro course.

I didn't realize that my planning feels obsessive, it's hard to tell sometimes when it's just my own thoughts (hence why I came here for general feedback). Decisiveness is something that I've been working on over the years, so it's good to know when I'm falling short of it. It's a work in progress.

---
Overall, I think for now, I will continue to find a new way to spend my time, exploring what @Dale suggested. Career-related or not, it should still be an informative and valuable experience.
In the meantime, I will try to work my way through the introductory courses at my community college to get my feet wet. It should still serve as a continuing education experience for me regardless of where my feelings are on making this career change by that point.

Of course, if I am missing anything or if there is something I should think on, anyone with experience, please feel free to offer your thoughts.

 

[gleem]

I'm confused. You said

When I went to college, I first wanted to go into physics because I was very fascinated by being able to study a topic that focuses on understanding the different fundamental elements and moving pieces making up our world.

But you did not even try to go into physics.

My science education ended when I graduated high school, I had AP credits to get out of science requirements in undergrad. I didn't take any introductory science courses in undergrad to get a sense of what it's like at the collegiate level to reflect on. I can only read about physics and feel what I feel.

Then you chose not to take any physics courses.

 

[physics_enthusiast]

I'm confused. You saidBut you did not even try to go into physics.
Then you chose not to take any physics courses.

Yes, like I mentioned, I approached undergrad by studying something I was interested in and something I could get a job out of. I avoided taking any more coursework beyond that to either avoid an overbearing work load each semester or to be able to actually fit my courses into a schedule. It is not like the sciences disappeared, they just weren't as present as they could be if I pursued studying them. I'm unsure where this scrutiny is leading.

 

[gleem]

So you saw no future in physics as a viable job?

 

[berkeman]

I'm unsure where this scrutiny is leading.

We live in a different country than you do, so some of your comments seem unusual to us (well, to me, and to be honest I haven't read all of the posts in this thread).

When I went to college, I first wanted to go into physics because I was very fascinated by being able to study a topic that focuses on understanding the different fundamental elements and moving pieces making up our world. I felt that the knowledge and skills required to study a subject like that would aid me in being a much more adaptable learner in any other subject in the future.

My science education ended when I graduated high school, I had AP credits to get out of science requirements in undergrad. I didn't take any introductory science courses in undergrad to get a sense of what it's like at the collegiate level to reflect on.

I later switched to mathematics because I felt like it was a subject better equipped for achieving that learning goal, and because I was deeply interested in learning the background and context behind a lot of the introductory mathematics I was taught throughout high school all the way through linear algebra & calculus. I also studied computer science because I was being misguided in commonly held advice that it would prepare me for a programming job (it turned out to be a fairly different discipline).

At least in the US, I don't think it's possible for high school AP classes to exempt us from taking further science classes in undergrad, so that's a big part of where my misgivings come from. Perhaps in your country that is true. But here, the first 2 years of undergrad for most technical majors are pretty similar, with the formal major decision coming near the end of the 2nd year. Not all universities here are like this though, and things may have changed in the last couple of decades...

 

[physics_enthusiast]

We live in a different country than you do, so some of your comments seem unusual to us (well, to me, and to be honest I haven't read all of the posts in this thread).At least in the US, I don't think it's possible for high school AP classes to exempt us from taking further science classes in undergrad, so that's a big part of where my misgivings come from. Perhaps in your country that is true. But here, the first 2 years of undergrad for most technical majors are pretty similar, with the formal major decision coming near the end of the 2nd year. Not all universities here are like this though, and things may have changed in the last couple of decades...

I live in the US, I came into undergrad with AP credits for Chemistry and Environmental Science, which fulfilled the requirement. My school only required 2 classes (6 total credits, most classes fulfilling the requirement are given 3 or 4 credits) for its core science requirement. I am not even the most exorbitant case of high school workload being used to get past credit requirements, although other stories I only heard from word of mouth (that I'm led to believe). I have no idea what undergrad was like for you, I can only comment on my own experience.

 

[CrysPhys]

When I went to college, I first wanted to go into physics because I was very fascinated by being able to study a topic that focuses on understanding the different fundamental elements and moving pieces making up our world. I felt that the knowledge and skills required to study a subject like that would aid me in being a much more adaptable learner in any other subject in the future.

My interest in physics still remains the same, but I now have a greater appreciation for the value of studying the natural world in its own right without fussing over intellectualizing everything (as I used to when I thought to study math instead). My appreciation grew post-graduation (likely picking up where my feelings left off from high school) when I became a lot less insecure about my capacity for knowledge and when the pressures of finding employment were not as strong.
To me, it is incredibly beautiful how physics (and chemistry) inspires engineering advancements, provides a source of modeling in the social sciences (like economics and finances), and facilitates some work in anthropology (archeology). Even arts and music have drawn upon our understanding of physics, like our understanding of pitches, or our understanding of light/color and modeling form (which is one of my favorite topics in art). I find physics shaping much of what humanity has to offer to be beautiful and elegant, like experiencing and understanding how drawing and painting shaped film and animation and being able to experience film and animation in itself as much as drawing or painting.

I want to begin studying physics to make that knowledge my own. I want to experience the even further boundaries in human knowledge that physics has to offer and to be drawn towards some specialization that particularly inspires me.

OP: You are yet another poster who has an abstract, idealized, romanticized, fantasized vision of physics. I've yet to see you express an interest in a specific field you wish do research in. This is similar to a response I gave recently to another poster:

* You keep saying you have a passion for physics. But from all your posts so far, it's more accurate to say you have a passion for some abstract, idealized vision of what you think physics is. Perhaps I've missed it, but I haven't seen you actually demonstrate passion for a particular field of research.

 

[physics_enthusiast]

OP: You are yet another poster who has an abstract, idealized, romanticized, fantasized vision of physics. I've yet to see you express an interest in a specific field you wish do research in. This is similar to a response I gave recently to another poster:

I, personally, don't think it makes sense to not plan ahead, especially if it's going to take a year or a year and a half before I can reach coursework where I can demonstrate a legitimate interest, to some. It's like telling me I don't actually have any interest in piano, until I learn piano -- up until a certain proficiency, even though I should also have a motivation towards piano to learn, especially when building early skills, that won't be demonstratable, until I learn.

I saw an interesting thread a couple weeks ago where someone asked about tools people use to keep track of research. I'm planning on using this to explore research fields. As an aside, I used to like reading introductory texts on subject specific topics when I was a student for fun (like reading about logic in grad level text, or computer graphics, or algebraic geometry, etc). When you were a student starting out, what was your experience like learning about your field? Do you have any advice on pitfalls to avoid, or advice on what went well?

 

[Dale]

When you were a student starting out, what was your experience like learning about your field?

One of my most formative experiences, professionally speaking, was attending my first scientific conference. I got to see the work of the “little guys”, and found it interesting.

I would recommend going to a conference. Go to the posters. Talk to people at their posters about their work and their lifestyle. Those are the “little guys” and are what you are thinking about becoming. Go to a lecture or two, probably none will seem groundbreaking, but if they do then those are the “big guys” so go back to the posters. You are going to be a “little guy” so that is who you need to see.

For what it is worth, probably several of them will feel that they are living passively, like watching a movie. Ask them. Hopefully that will help you recognize that studying physics does not solve that specific problem.

 

[CrysPhys]

I, personally, don't think it makes sense to not plan ahead, especially if it's going to take a year or a year and a half before I can reach coursework where I can demonstrate a legitimate interest, to some.

I never said not to plan ahead. It's your motivation that I find murky.

It's like telling me I don't actually have any interest in piano, until I learn piano -- up until a certain proficiency, even though I should also have a motivation towards piano to learn, especially when building early skills, that won't be demonstratable, until I learn.

I saw an interesting thread a couple weeks ago where someone asked about tools people use to keep track of research. I'm planning on using this to explore research fields. As an aside, I used to like reading introductory texts on subject specific topics when I was a student for fun (like reading about logic in grad level text, or computer graphics, or algebraic geometry, etc). When you were a student starting out, what was your experience like learning about your field? Do you have any advice on pitfalls to avoid, or advice on what went well?

To me, whether it's learning the piano or learning physics, the proper sequence is (a) undergoing a concrete experience (either a singular experience or a series of experiences) that triggers an interest in a subject or field of research and then (b) identifying a course of study or action to pursue that interest.

E.g., if I were to start piano lessons, and someone asked me why, I would respond thus: I went to a Sarah McLachlan concert. Her most memorable numbers were her singing, accompanied only by her own piano; no band, no backup singers. They were emotional, spiritual experiences.

My journey to physics started with a toy microscope that I got one X-MAS. I looked at the usual specimens: hair, leaves, insects, .... My favorite was watching a drop of saline solution evaporate to form salt crystals. I later bought a better microscope and completed several years of science fair projects in crystal growth. I developed strong interests in microscopy, crystal growth, and the structure and properties of single crystals. In undergrad and grad school, I majored in physics, with a heavy dose of electives in materials science and engineering. My PhD research was in the field of solid-state physics.

So start with concrete examples of what sparks your interests. Those will then lead you on to what you should study. Not: "I've always been interested in physics. I'll hunt around for an area of research that I might like."

 

[physics_enthusiast]

I never said not to plan ahead. It's your motivation that I find murky.
To me, whether it's learning the piano or learning physics, the proper sequence is (a) undergoing a concrete experience (either a singular experience or a series of experiences) that triggers an interest in a subject or field of research and then (b) identifying a course of study or action to pursue that interest.

E.g., if I were to start piano lessons, and someone asked me why, I would respond thus: I went to a Sarah McLachlan concert. Her most memorable numbers were her singing, accompanied only by her own piano; no band, no backup singers. They were emotional, spiritual experiences.

My journey to physics started with a toy microscope that I got one X-MAS. I looked at the usual specimens: hair, leaves, insects, .... My favorite was watching a drop of saline solution evaporate to form salt crystals. I later bought a better microscope and completed several years of science fair projects in crystal growth. I developed strong interests in microscopy, crystal growth, and the structure and properties of single crystals. In undergrad and grad school, I majored in physics, with a heavy dose of electives in materials science and engineering. My PhD research was in the field of solid-state physics.

So start with concrete examples of what sparks your interests. Those will then lead you on to what you should study. Not: "I've always been interested in physics. I'll hunt around for an area of research that I might like."

Thanks for sharing a summary of your own experiences! I think that could give people who may later read these threads a better idea of what sort of concrete experiences they could talk about to better prompt advice. I have a better idea of what sort of solidity in experiences users are asking.

For the piano illustration: I don't think your example of a motivation is much different than what people in this section of the discussion board have that begins an initial interest in physics. A listening experience is very different from playing experience, let alone learning the specific aspects behind musicianship to excel in an instrument or the instrument itself. And that's not even touching on being inspired to learn other aspects of music too -- singing, writing, arranging, etc. Listening isn't playing.
That's not much different from people feeling inspired in what they read in physics, or what they liked from high school, or what they like about a field that could be achieved through physics (just examples). It is just an initial interest, and people's feelings will change -- hopefully for better but not always. But that happens all the time for everything anyways, including my example with piano. Maybe along someone's learning journey they'll develop their own tastes, or their own proficiencies, or have their own opinion on musical experiences. As long as time is well spent I don't see an issue with people giving it an initial start going as far as they can. And they won't know unless they can plan it out and get an idea of next steps and what to look ahead to.

I think most people, when they think of what motivates, will probably think of what I'm referring to in my piano example. An emotional feeling or experience.

The same can be said about drawing or painting. I've had peers come in to learn with similarly vague motivations and I've never seen them been turned away by my teachers. Their feelings and thoughts change as they progress, but it got them on their initial start.

 

[CrysPhys]

Thanks for sharing a summary of your own experiences! I think that could give people who may later read these threads a better idea of what sort of concrete experiences they could talk about to better prompt advice. I have a better idea of what sort of solidity in experiences users are asking.

If you truly appreciate the significance of what you wrote above, you would have responded with concrete examples of your own that led you to pursue an interest in physics. Instead, you reverted to a vague generalization:

I think most people, when they think of what motivates, will probably think of what I'm referring to in my piano example. An emotional feeling or experience.

Once again, what are your concrete examples that led you specifically to physics (instead of, e.g., biology, chemistry, medicine, art history, linguistics, ...)?

ETA: Just to nail down what I'm after. In my discussion of the piano example, "They were emotional, spiritual experiences." was my response to a triggering event, namely particular numbers in a Sarah McLachlan concert. Similarly, for your reply on physics, "An emotional feeling or experience." should be a response to some triggering event. One does not simply have an emotional feeling or experience in response to physics in the abstract. I'm looking for something along the lines of, "My dad setup a telescope to project the progression of the total eclipse of the sun. I was in awe. I wanted to learn more details. I was motivated to learn more about telescopes, astronomy, celestial mechanics, astrophysics." I'm after concrete examples of events that triggered the strong emotional response that motivated you to pursue physics at this moment; particularly since you chose not to pursue physics (or any science) courses at all in college.

As Eliza Doolittle sang,

"Tell me no dreams
Filled with desire.
If you're on fire,
Show me!"

 

[physics_enthusiast]

If you truly appreciate the significance of what you wrote above, you would have responded with concrete examples of your own that led you to pursue an interest in physics. Instead, you reverted to a vague generalization:
Once again, what are your concrete examples that led you specifically to physics (instead of, e.g., biology, chemistry, medicine, art history, linguistics, ...)?

ETA: Just to nail down what I'm after. In my discussion of the piano example, "They were emotional, spiritual experiences." was my response to a triggering event, namely particular numbers in a Sarah McLachlan concert. Similarly, for your reply on physics, "An emotional feeling or experience." should be a response to some triggering event. One does not simply have an emotional feeling or experience in response to physics in the abstract. I'm looking for something along the lines of, "My dad setup a telescope to project the progression of the total eclipse of the sun. I was in awe. I wanted to learn more details. I was motivated to learn more about telescopes, astronomy, celestial mechanics, astrophysics." I'm after concrete examples of events that triggered the strong emotional response that motivated you to pursue physics at this moment; particularly since you chose not to pursue physics (or any science) courses at all in college.

As Eliza Doolittle sang,

"Tell me no dreams
Filled with desire.
If you're on fire,
Show me!"

It's strange to me to dictate what people do or do not feel, that's all. Would it be more specific if I mention an article I read that led me to want to learn more about a topic? Or discussing how studying light and color in drawing and painting (not art history) made me interested in learning more about light, which then leads to the larger world of physics? Because I can still see how both of those experiences would still register as "vague" to someone else, even though they are specific to me (one being more involved than the other). But maybe there is a way to angle those two things to discuss them in a way that could help others help.

People take interest in things over even less than an idea. It's still a feeling they experience.

I still think an emotional and spiritual experience from a musical performance is a vague motivation for learning piano if we're going along this line of thinking. I'm not really sure how any teacher would be able to assist someone if that was their motivation for learning piano, whether that is building lesson plans for them, or discussing musical goals and development. It might be even more confusing if someone was told the motivation was sparked by a Sarah McLachlan performance (e.g. is a student looking to play like Sarah McLachlan? -- not a great starting goal)

Regardless, I'll agree to disagree and leave it there. I think we are not getting anywhere. In creating this thread, it was not to look to debate over the integrity of my interests (in a thread seeking guidance, no less) when I'm just looking for general advice or feedback on plans I've shaped for ahead. Maybe a separate thread may be worth creating for sharing personal experiences that shaped motivations to illustrate how users can help themselves when looking for advice on where to start. There have been a few items noted in this thread worth working on for me that I think may be valuable insights for other readers present or in the future as well.

 

[symbolipoint]

I've spent my years post-graduation focusing a lot on learning and developing new skills through my various hobbies to experience as much learning that life has to offer.

The way you write is strange, or at least it is strange to me. A suggestion may be, think and then write much more plainly and directly. The quote above is just one example why I find how you write to be strange; maybe a different adjective would be better.

 

[physics_enthusiast]

The way you write is strange, or at least it is strange to me. A suggestion may be, think and then write much more plainly and directly. The quote above is just one example why I find how you write to be strange; maybe a different adjective would be better.

An aside, I laugh reacted to this because I agree and am aware. I write in a long winded way. It's a bad habit I've been working on. I can't believe it's so noticeable!

 

[symbolipoint]

I didn't realize that my planning feels obsessive, it's hard to tell sometimes when it's just my own thoughts (hence why I came here for general feedback). Decisiveness is something that I've been working on over the years, so it's good to know when I'm falling short of it. It's a work in progress.

See what I put in bold? There is some hope for you, if you identified a/the problem.

 

[symbolipoint]

Yes, like I mentioned, I approached undergrad by studying something I was interested in and something I could get a job out of. I avoided taking any more coursework beyond that to either avoid an overbearing work load each semester or to be able to actually fit my courses into a schedule.

You are not the only one ever who made choices that way. Such people really need better counseling, and to learn to make decisive choices (with guidance when possible).

 

[symbolipoint]

I, personally, don't think it makes sense to not plan ahead, especially if it's going to take a year or a year and a half before I can reach coursework where I can demonstrate a legitimate interest, to some. It's like telling me I don't actually have any interest in piano, until I learn piano -- up until a certain proficiency, even though I should also have a motivation towards piano to learn, especially when building early skills, that won't be demonstratable, until I learn.

The way to apply that thinking, is to STUDY PHYSICS, formally, beginning maybe in a community college and transfer, if your success seems reasonable, to a university to continue studying.

 

[symbolipoint]

@physics_enthusiast
I read through the post #1. Last sentence there is the right(in some ways) thing to do. The trouble you will have is doing your current job and going to school at the same time. So you have an undergraduate degree in C.S. and you have a related job. GOOD! You would also need to review extensively most of the mathematics knowledge and skills from your undergraduate earned degree because that material goes stale in you very fast.

 

[Vanadium 50]

As Eliza Doolittle sang,

The rain in Maine falls mainly down the drain. Or something. (Vein? Brain? Ptomaine?)

If we are going to discuss My Fair Lady, there is also Wouldn't It Be Loverly. What I am hearing is an attraction to the idea of physics, and the reality might or might not match the idea. It is good advice to take a class or two and see how that goes before committing to a multi-year path.

 

[CrysPhys]

If we are going to discuss My Fair Lady, there is also Wouldn't It Be Loverly.

That song is also on point for my point. Eliza doesn't express some vague notion of an idyllic life in paradise. She rattles off a list of specific concrete items that would make her happy:

"All I want is a room somewhere
Far away from the cold night air
With one enormous chair
Oh, wouldn't it be loverly?

Lots of chocolate for me to eat
Lots of coal makin' lots of heat
Warm face, warm hands, warm feet
Oh, wouldn't it be loverly?
---
Someone's head restin' on my knee
Warm and tender as he can be
Who takes good care of me
Oh, wouldn't it be loverly
Loverly, loverly, loverly, loverly ..."

We can then evaluate whether those items are realistic to obtain.

 

[Vanadium 50]

I'm so confused. We're allowed to discuss Alan Lerner on PF, but not Eric Lerner, right?

 

[CrysPhys]

I'm so confused. We're allowed to discuss Alan Lerner on PF, but not Eric Lerner, right?

One could argue that Alan made a big bang in his field of endeavor; whereas, Eric, by his own admission, did not. Also, poor Eliza has yet to warm herself with a plasma fusion source.