Is the French Headscarf Ban a Violation of Religious Freedom?

[member 5645]

Originally posted by master_coda
I don't recall that phatmonkey saying the values were the same. Just saying that it's wrong to say for you to try and say that this law is more offensive to one group or the other.

Exactly what I have been saying.

 

[member 5645]

Originally posted by Monique
Check the source..

To which I replied: "It is arrogant to think that a scarf cannot be more important than a cross around the neck"

But you see Monique, I never said that. You have been putting words in my mouth.

Again, you state "You said it is arrogant to think that values can be different"... I never said any sort thing. In fact, I expressely said that the offense by each group IS different, but just because you add an extra emotion to one side, doesn't mean the offense is greater. I have never said that either side feels a greater offense, but instead that each person is sure to feel offended to different degrees.

In the end that is the whole basis(which you are now agreeing with), on why this law is NOT racist or prejudice against muslims only(or even more against them). I still stand that if you believe that, then you believe the law offends muslims more than non-muslims, and that is demeaning to those who are greatly hurt by this law outside of the islamic community.

 

[Monique]

No, I never said this law is more offensive to one group or the other. I am saying that crosses have nothing to do with the law. The reason that they thought up this law in the first place, is because of anti-muslim sentiment. This way they are trying to help integration, I guess, like Drag said.

 

[kat]

Originally posted by Monique
The reason that they thought up this law in the first place, is because of anti-muslim sentiment. .

I think your mistaken about the core issue and minimizing the situation. I wonder why there isn't such a clamor about Jews not being allowed to wear their skullcaps? Oh, wait...they were instructed not to wear them to school any longer because it had become dangerous to do so. Maybe that's the real problem? It's not anti-muslim sentiment...maybe it's mulsim anti-sentiment...

 

[Monique]

Originally posted by phatmonky
But you see Monique, I never said that. You have been putting words in my mouth.

may I advice you to scroll back down to the first page and check your own words yourself?

 

[Monique]

Originally posted by phatmonky
In the end that is the whole basis(which you are now agreeing with), on why this law is NOT racist or prejudice against muslims only(or even more against them). I still stand that if you believe that, then you believe the law offends muslims more than non-muslims, and that is demeaning to those who are greatly hurt by this law outside of the islamic community.

You seem to be missing the point that this is Europe we are talking about, there is this very negative view in the public about people wearing headscarfs. They are automatically labeled as aggressive, criminal, oppressed, dominated by males, anti-feminist, you name it.

That is why in my view this law is anti-muslim. They want to do away with headscarfs because of the associated image. They don't want to do away with crosses, I am not sure about skullcaps (I've never heard of anti-Jew sentiment). But in order to pass such a law, you need to be uniform.

You surely must know about the center-right shift that is taking place throughout Europe.

 

[Monique]

I still haven't been given a reason other than the one I mentioned, why they'd want to pass a law like this.

What is wrong with crosses, caps and scarfs? Why isn't there tolerance? I really don't get it.

 

[member 5645]

Originally posted by Monique
I still haven't been given a reason other than the one I mentioned, why they'd want to pass a law like this.

What is wrong with crosses, caps and scarfs? Why isn't there tolerance? I really don't get it.

Because fair is all or none. The French chose none, I would have chosen all.

 

[member 5645]

Originally posted by Monique
You seem to be missing the point that this is Europe we are talking about,

Eh, I'll concede on that note for I am not European. I still hold that it is rude for me to tell anyone that banning my religious symbol means more to me than banning their's means to them (and vice versa).

 

[master_coda]

Originally posted by Monique
That is why in my view this law is anti-muslim. They want to do away with headscarfs because of the associated image. They don't want to do away with crosses, I am not sure about skullcaps (I've never heard of anti-Jew sentiment). But in order to pass such a law, you need to be uniform.

You surely must know about the center-right shift that is taking place throughout Europe.

While the people who passed the law may or may not have directed it at Muslims, the law itself is not anti-Muslim.

That doesn't change the fact that the law is wrong. But the law isn't racist or xenophobic.

 

[master_coda]

Originally posted by Monique
What is wrong with crosses, caps and scarfs? Why isn't there tolerance? I really don't get it.

The problem with those symbols is that they sometimes are worn just for others to see. Sort of like overt public prayer...it's often just done to try and impress others with how religous you are. This can be very offensive to others who don't share your views.

Of course that's why this law is wrong. The people who use these symbols in such an obnoxious way are in the minority, and even if they weren't the government should not be using the law to restrict expression just because it's offensive.

 

[jimmy p]

There are a lot of Muslims in European countries arent there? Well correct me if I am wrong, but don't European women NOT cover up their face and neck? Isnt that quite offensive? However the CHOOSE to come to Europe.

Also if a non-muslim woman were to go into a Muslim country, would she be expected to cover up? i should think so, but I am not sure. They have our laws, apparently the French (practically ruling the EU) want their own. None of it is right but it is going to happen/has happened anyway.

The way my dad thought about it was as an illegal/legal immigrant rout. The ones that were more zealous would pack up and leave in disgust.

 

[drag]

Originally posted by Monique
That is why in my view this law is anti-muslim.

Great, so be it.

Originally posted by Monique
They don't want to do away with crosses,

Why should they, it's not like they're a dark age tradition
like covering up cause you're female and your men don't
like it so they invented a religious law against it.
And it's not like, when you go to church, you're told
that other religions and people are bad and getting rid of
them is not.

Originally posted by Monique
I am not sure about skullcaps (I've never heard of anti-Jew sentiment).

Are we talking about the same country ? France, right ?
How about, for example, Belgium ? Hell, pick any of
them EU "crystal clear" souls.

Live long and prosper.

 

[Zero]

Originally posted by drag
Great, so be it.

Why should they, it's not like they're a dark age tradition
like covering up cause you're female and your men don't
like it so they invented a religious law against it.
And it's not like, when you go to church, you're told
that other religions and people are bad and getting rid of
them is not.

Are we talking about the same country ? France, right ?
How about, for example, Belgium ? Hell, pick any of
them EU "crystal clear" souls.

Live long and prosper.

LOL

All religions are "dark age traditions", don't you think?

 

[member 5645]

Originally posted by Zero
LOL

All religions are "dark age traditions", don't you think?

Scientology, Ch’ondogyo , and the Raelian religion have all been created in the last 150 years

 

[Zero]

Originally posted by phatmonky
Scientology, Ch’ondogyo , and the Raelian religion have all been created in the last 150 years

Yeah, but they are based on the same silly notions and attitudes.

I'm a supporter of religious freedom, of course, even though I think they are all equally nonsense. A ban on religious symbology for students is a violation of that freedom, and I can't imagine a prevailing interest in banning headscarves, skullcaps, or crosses.

 

[member 5645]

Originally posted by Zero
Yeah, but they are based on the same silly notions and attitudes.

I'm a supporter of religious freedom, of course, even though I think they are all equally nonsense. A ban on religious symbology for students is a violation of that freedom, and I can't imagine a prevailing interest in banning headscarves, skullcaps, or crosses.

I'm just giving you a hard time for generalizing all religions as dark age traditions

 

[Zero]

Originally posted by phatmonky
I'm just giving you a hard time for generalizing all religions as dark age traditions

Well, it is pretty easy to do, isn't it? At least it allows me to be fairly unbiased towards religion, since my dislike is pretty regular across the board.

 

[Hurkyl]

At least it allows me to be fairly unbiased towards religion, since my dislike is pretty regular across the board.

It's pretty clear you are biased against religion; I presume you meant that it allows you to be unbiased between different religions?

 

[Zero]

Originally posted by Hurkyl
It's pretty clear you are biased against religion; I presume you meant that it allows you to be unbiased between different religions?

Right. I am not in favor of any single religion; I apply the same standards to all of them.