Is the Pope Embracing the Big Bang Theory?

[Borek]

So the mistake they make is that when faced with overwhelming scientific evidence, they accept it. Yes, that IS outrageous. Even worse, they make a point to state this publically rather than hiding it in the their docrtine. This is clearly much worse than the many religions that flatly reject science, even in principle.

Nice twist of my words, but that's not what I said. Problem is not that they accept the evidence, problem is that the day after they start to reject new evidence.

I wasn't aware of the Pope saying anything about this being the final word. Can you provide a source for that one?

I am not sure what you refer to. You quoted me, but I have not referred to the Papal infallibility - that's the name of the dogma.

We teach and define that it is a dogma Divinely revealed that the Roman pontiff when he speaks ex cathedra, that is when in discharge of the office of pastor and doctor of all Christians, by virtue of his supreme Apostolic authority, he defines a doctrine regarding faith or morals to be held by the universal Church, by the Divine assistance promised to him in Blessed Peter, is possessed of that infallibility with which the Divine Redeemer willed that his Church should be endowed in defining doctrine regarding faith or morals, and that therefore such definitions of the Roman pontiff are of themselves and not from the consent of the Church irreformable.

Basically Pope is always right when he speaks about faith and morals. That is - they voted he is always right. I guess creation fits the "faith" category.

 

[Vanadium 50]

Basically Pope is always right when he speaks about faith and morals. That is - they voted he is always right. I guess creation fits the "faith" category.

Almost. He also has to speak "ex cathedra" - i.e. be deliberately intending to make a statement in this category. It was last used about five popes back.

 

[turbo]

Almost. He also has to speak "ex cathedra" - i.e. be deliberately intending to make a statement in this category. It was last used about five popes back.

Thank you. The doctrine is less than 150 years old, and is concerned with papal pronouncements that may or may not have been supported by ecumenical councils. Pious XII's embrace of the Big Bang in 1951 was not of that level of import, but the BB conveniently fit with the Catholic church's view of universal creation.

In other words, Catholics do not have to believe in the BB, but the top Catholic hierarchy has supported that theory for about 60 years.

 

[Jack21222]

This thread reminds me of this comic:

http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=2005#comic

 

[nismaratwork]

This makes me wonder... does a pope NEED kudos? I mean, priests go straight to heaven, right? The pope must be pretty well set without kudos... and there is the point, made in triptych, by Eric Cartman of 'South Park':

"Do I want to do it? Does the pope help pedophiles get away with their crimes?" (Eric Cartman - 'South Park')
"Is that something I'd want to do? Is the Pope Catholic and making the world safe for pedophiles?" (Eric Cartman - 'South Park')
"Does a bear crap in the woods and does the Pope crap on the dreams of 200 deaf boys?" (Eric Cartman - 'South Park')

 

[BobG]

For hundreds of years church did the same mistake again and again. When faced with overwhelming evidence that they are wrong, they move a step back and start to hold the new position as the final truth. Earth was flat, in the center, 10k years old, there was no evolution and so on. Sometimes I think they never learn.

Which church? I'm pretty sure the Catholic Church never taught the Earth was flat, nor do I believe they ever took the position that there was no evolution (in fact, it took over 100 years for them to take any stand on evolution whatsoever).

 

[nismaratwork]

Which church? I'm pretty sure the Catholic Church never taught the Earth was flat, nor do I believe they ever took the position that there was no evolution (in fact, it took over 100 years for them to take any stand on evolution whatsoever).

True, they had a lot of money to make, sheep to fleece, and kids to molest. That's hard work, and takes a LOT of time.

 

[Borek]

Which church? I'm pretty sure the Catholic Church never taught the Earth was flat, nor do I believe they ever took the position that there was no evolution (in fact, it took over 100 years for them to take any stand on evolution whatsoever).

Perhaps it can be attributed to a difference between church as an organization, and church as individual priests. I remember being bashed as a kid by my peers for stating evolution exists, and I remember being told "we were told in church that's not true". Such things can be traumatic when you are 5 yo, hence long memory. (Yes, yes, I know, 5 yo trying to discuss evolution and telling others our ancestors were apes doesn't sound normal. That was always my problem, I don't know how to keep my tongue beneath my teeth.) Since then I have several occasions to talk with catholic priests, many times my words were twisted just to show my approach - call it scientific method - is wrong. Once I was even told I believe in god of equations.

 

[nismaratwork]

Perhaps it can be attributed to a difference between church as an organization, and church as individual priests. I remember being bashed as a kid by my peers for stating evolution exists, and I remember being told "we were told in church that's not true". Such things can be traumatic when you are 5 yo, hence long memory. (Yes, yes, I know, 5 yo trying to discuss evolution and telling others our ancestors were apes doesn't sound normal. That was always my problem, I don't know how to keep my tongue beneath my teeth.) Since then I have several occasions to talk with catholic priests, many times my words were twisted just to show my approach - call it scientific method - is wrong. Once I was even told I believe in god of equations.

To me, an individual priest should be taken on the basis of the sincerity of their faith, and the things they DO. If they're terrible people, so be it, but I've had a lifelong friendship with several Jesuits (smart smart smart) and there's nothing wrong with Catholic PEOPLE. The Church...

 

[jreelawg]

Monsignor Georges Henri Joseph Édouard Lemaître ( lemaitre.ogg (help·info) July 17, 1894 – June 20, 1966) was a Belgian Roman Catholic priest, honorary prelate, professor of physics and astronomer at the Catholic University of Louvain. He sometimes used the title Abbé or Monseigneur.

Lemaître proposed what became known as the Big Bang theory of the origin of the Universe, which he called his 'hypothesis of the primeval atom'.[1][2]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georges_Lemaître

prelate |ˈprelət|
noun formal or historical
a bishop or other high ecclesiastical dignitary.

 

[nismaratwork]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georges_Lemaître

prelate |ˈprelət|
noun formal or historical
a bishop or other high ecclesiastical dignitary.

Now that's interesting... the history of the church, while hard to bear, is fascinating. The works of individuals within the church can be very impressive however.

 

[zomgwtf]

I skimmed through the last page all I could read in this thread was some apologetics for the church and some arguements against the church.

I think that the Pope should stick to reading his bible and let scientists say what's going on in the scientific world, last time I checked his credentials didn't give me the SLIGHTEST clue that he knew or understood anything remotely related to BB.

People are going to come in with the apologetics of but he's got to say something! He leads so many people and influences their beliefs!
Sure he can influence and lead them all he wants, as far as the bible is concerned. He should stay the **** out of everything else including: other religions (I doubt he's well studied in those), politics, science, social sciences, history (if not related to the church) and the list goes on. He should inform and influence his followers to read and learn for themselves. BUT WAIT! They can't do that! People might stop listening altogether and leave the church! Well if you need to string them along with lies and manipulation the entire time the what does that say about your beliefs in the first place?

This in my opinion is the equivalent of those 'Drs.' you see on TV going on about the benefits of some product. Meanwhile they just got a PhD in history or something and have no qualification to be making a comment about something aside by attempting to portray they are well studied in the field.

 

[nismaratwork]

I skimmed through the last page all I could read in this thread was some apologetics for the church and some arguements against the church.

I think that the Pope should stick to reading his bible and let scientists say what's going on in the scientific world, last time I checked his credentials didn't give me the SLIGHTEST clue that he knew or understood anything remotely related to BB.

People are going to come in with the apologetics of but he's got to say something! He leads so many people and influences their beliefs!
Sure he can influence and lead them all he wants, as far as the bible is concerned. He should stay the **** out of everything else including: other religions (I doubt he's well studied in those), politics, science, social sciences, history (if not related to the church) and the list goes on. He should inform and influence his followers to read and learn for themselves. BUT WAIT! They can't do that! People might stop listening altogether and leave the church! Well if you need to string them along with lies and manipulation the entire time the what does that say about your beliefs in the first place?

This in my opinion is the equivalent of those 'Drs.' you see on TV going on about the benefits of some product. Meanwhile they just got a PhD in history or something and have no qualification to be making a comment about something aside by attempting to portray they are well studied in the field.

Well... I'm not going to apologize... if anything you've been extremely generous.

 

[Physics-Learner]

the catholic church, like any big organization, does whatever it needs to do in order to survive. big organizations do not exist for the betterment of their clients.

if god exists, the catholic church has no more understanding of god than anyone else does.

the catholic church changes its mind about a lot of things. if it really had a connection to god, it would not need to change its mind.

the sadness that i see is that there are so many brainwashed catholics, who simply go along with whatever the church says. if the church says something is true, then catholics must believe it is true, or be told they are sinning and arent good catholics, etc.

then when the church changes its mind, the people are also supposed to change their mind. what would have been a sin yesterday, is now a sin today for just the opposite reason.

when i was a kid, catholics were still being taught that only catholics could get to heaven. while pope john changed that in the early 60s, it did not trickle down to the various priests and nuns at the individual churches instantaneously.

i finally wised up, and realized that the catholic church has no connection with god.

 

[chiro]

Its sad that many people look up to authority figures like this. It happens everywhere whether they are priests, scientists, celebrities, talk show hosts: it makes me sick.

It takes a lot of bravery to stand up to this sort of rubbish and its a pity that people are afraid to stand up and question out loudly what they are being told.

The moment that people became convinced that some among us are gods over us mere mortals caused the huge downfall of our civilization.

 

[nismaratwork]

the catholic church, like any big organization, does whatever it needs to do in order to survive. big organizations do not exist for the betterment of their clients.

if god exists, the catholic church has no more understanding of god than anyone else does.

the catholic church changes its mind about a lot of things. if it really had a connection to god, it would not need to change its mind.

the sadness that i see is that there are so many brainwashed catholics, who simply go along with whatever the church says. if the church says something is true, then catholics must believe it is true, or be told they are sinning and arent good catholics, etc.

then when the church changes its mind, the people are also supposed to change their mind. what would have been a sin yesterday, is now a sin today for just the opposite reason.

when i was a kid, catholics were still being taught that only catholics could get to heaven. while pope john changed that in the early 60s, it did not trickle down to the various priests and nuns at the individual churches instantaneously.

i finally wised up, and realized that the catholic church has no connection with god.

I agree with everything except that the catholic church, much like Bernie Madoff or the Enron psychopaths, are less doing what they must to survive, and are more like someone with Prader-Willy! The phrase, "enough is enough", is probably a shooting offense in the Vatican...

 

[nismaratwork]

Its sad that many people look up to authority figures like this. It happens everywhere whether they are priests, scientists, celebrities, talk show hosts: it makes me sick.

It takes a lot of bravery to stand up to this sort of rubbish and its a pity that people are afraid to stand up and question out loudly what they are being told.

The moment that people became convinced that some among us are gods over us mere mortals caused the huge downfall of our civilization.

bolded: Errr... you have that backwards... god-kings came first... check your Mesopotemian history... not that I'm arguing with anything else you've said, because I'm not.

 

[mugaliens]

Well, I'm convinced...

What of, I remain uncertain, so rock on.