Lagrangian in rotating space without potential

In summary, the conversation discusses the use of the Lagrangian to derive centrifugal and Coriolis forces in rotating space. The formula for the speed of an object for an outside observer is mentioned, along with the challenge of using the chain rule on the cross product. The suggestion is made to apply the chain rule as usual for each derivative term. The conversation also touches on the use of the dot product versus the cross product when using the chain rule.
  • #1
ShamelessGit
39
0

Homework Statement



I want to derive the centrifugal and Coriolis forces with the Lagrangian for rotating space. The speed of an object for an outside observer is dr/dt + w x r, where r are the moving coordinates. So m/2(dr/dt + w x r)^2 is the Lagrangian.


The Attempt at a Solution



Everything above makes intuitive sense to me. The problem is that I don't know how to use the chain rule on the w x r.

When I derive it by dr/dt and then by d/dt I get m(d^2r/dt^2 + w x dr/dt), which is what I'm supposed to get.

But when I do it by d/dr I just cannot get what I'm supposed to. I looked all over the internet and I can't find the chain rule for cross products and I've played with it for a long time and it just doesn't work.

Please help.
 
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  • #2
[tex]

\frac{\partial}{\partial t} (A \times B) = \frac{\partial A}{\partial t} \times B + A \times\frac{\partial B}{\partial t}

[/tex]

Then just apply the chain rule as you normally would for each derivative term, i.e.
[tex]
\frac{\partial A}{\partial t} = \frac{\partial A}{\partial r}\frac{\partial r}{\partial t}
[/tex]

edit - I realize this might not answer your question, but I'm having a hard time following what you're asking. What do you mean by 'derive it by dr/dt'
 
  • #3
I mean derive it by r dot, the time derivative of of r.

When I derive it by r I get m(dr/dt + w x r)(d/dr(w x r)) and I don't know what to do with that. It seems reasonable to think that it is equal to m(dr/dt + w x r)(w x 1), but what do I do now? When you use the chain rule like this is it multiplied by a dot product? A cross product?
 

FAQ: Lagrangian in rotating space without potential

What is the Lagrangian in rotating space without potential?

The Lagrangian in rotating space without potential is a mathematical quantity used in mechanics to describe the motion of a system of particles in a rotating reference frame. It takes into account the effects of the rotation of the reference frame and does not include any potential energy terms.

How is the Lagrangian in rotating space without potential derived?

The Lagrangian in rotating space without potential is derived by considering the kinetic energy of the particles in the rotating reference frame and taking into account the Coriolis and centrifugal forces that arise due to the rotation of the frame. These forces are then subtracted from the total energy of the system to obtain the Lagrangian.

What is the significance of the Lagrangian in rotating space without potential?

The Lagrangian in rotating space without potential is significant because it allows for a more accurate description of the motion of a system in a rotating reference frame. It takes into account the effects of the rotation of the frame, which can be important in certain situations, such as when studying the motion of celestial bodies.

How is the Lagrangian in rotating space without potential used in practical applications?

The Lagrangian in rotating space without potential is used in practical applications such as celestial mechanics, where it is used to study the motion of planets and other celestial bodies in a rotating reference frame. It is also used in fluid dynamics to study the motion of fluids in rotating containers or systems.

Are there any limitations to the use of the Lagrangian in rotating space without potential?

One limitation of the Lagrangian in rotating space without potential is that it assumes a non-inertial reference frame, which may not be appropriate in all situations. It also does not take into account any potential energy terms, which may be significant in certain systems. Additionally, it may become more complex to use when dealing with non-rigid bodies or systems with multiple rotating reference frames.

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