Laptop Shutting Down Unexpectedly: Dead Battery?

[yungman]

I have a 6yrs old HP 17.3" laptop. I set it to never shutdown, but lately, it shutdown by itself when not using, I want to try to troubleshoot it before I go out and buy another one.

1) The battery seems to be dead, it has 0 charge. I pulled the battery out, put it back in a few time to clean the contacts, it doesn't help.
2) I change the setting to never turn off the display and computer no matter what and still shutdown.
3) I lift the laptop up, drop it on the table a few times to check for lose connection inside, it's rock solid.

I am convinced it's not a lose connection problem.

I know the AC power is not interrupted because I have battery back up to the AC plug, power never fails. It's on the computer alone.

Can a dead battery cause this? Before I go and look for battery replacement, I want to make sure so I don't waste money buying the battery if something else is wrong.

This is my laptop
Model number: 17t-bs000 copied from the back of the laptop

This is the Amazon link to the computer, it's no longer available. I hope moderator do NOT remove, this is not a product for sale. I cannot find this model on HP site( maybe too old)

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B077RZCMR5?tag=pfamazon01-20

I look at the battery, model is HP 919700-850. Here is the link of the battery, just want to make sure it is right:
https://www.amazon.com/JC04-919700-...t-17-bs020nr/dp/B08YRLHGRM/?tag=pfamazon01-20

Please let me know whether replacing the battery will fix the problem.


Thanks

 

[FactChecker]

I have a 6yrs old HP 17.3" laptop.

Is the battery 6yrs old?

Can a dead battery cause this? Before I go and look for battery replacement, I want to make sure so I don't waste money buying the battery if something else is wrong.

IMO, a battery that is 6yrs old is near the end of its life. You are not losing much by replacing it. IMO, if you always have it plugged in at one location with an Uninterruptible Power Supply (UPS), you should consider a desktop computer instead of a laptop. That removes concerns about the battery and keeping it working.

An old battery certainly can cause your problem. I have not tried this, but you might be able to check the health of your battery. See this.

 

[berkeman]

3) I lift the laptop up, drop it on the table a few times to check for lose connection inside

Please don't do that.

You should check the Relibility Monitor to see what errors have been logged. I access it by typing reliability monitor in the small search box in the lower left of my Windows 10 screen, but you can access it via the Control Panel as well. You can see that there have been some errors recorded in my recent history (I'm also on an HP laptop about the same age as yours). Click on each error to get a more detailed description below the timeline display.

 

[yungman]

Please don't do that.

Thanks for the second part, I have to take the time to look of it. I'll come back later to report back.

Ha ha, This is from years of experience. I can't tell you how many times I found problem like this. Far as I concern, if electronic can't survive that, they will go bad sooner or later. This is SSD drive, no moving parts.

I'd be surprised so many problems of electronics are due to lose connector, cold solder. a slap on the back likely made this show up, saving time and/or money to send it out.

I can tell you, all these years, I yet to break any electronics that is not already broken by dropping and slapping yet. Many times I found the problem with this.

In fact, one of my 4 yrs old laptop started to fail last year( I bought the current one because of that). I slapped on the laptop, it failed right away. I opened the thing, put the DRAM card out, plug it in, pull it out and repeat a few times. Been work since, That becomes my second computer only with important email, bills, not getting on web and stuff. The new one I am using is for forums, facebook and all that. I hardly communicate with the other laptop, I use my play email address on the play computer.

 

[yungman]

Please don't do that.

You should check the Relibility Monitor to see what errors have been logged. I access it by typing reliability monitor in the small search box in the lower left of my Windows 10 screen, but you can access it via the Control Panel as well. You can see that there have been some errors recorded in my recent history (I'm also on an HP laptop about the same age as yours). Click on each error to get a more detailed description below the timeline display.

View attachment 351246

I ran the reliability report, it just show the shutdown, nothing new. Attached are two screen shot, one for weeks and one for days.

 

[berkeman]

What's that PowerENGAGE thing?

 

[yungman]

What's that PowerENGAGE thing?

Here is what I got:

It starter after I set never power off on battery last night.

I went online, it's about battery usage, setting and all that. The battery charge is 0%, the battery is dead.

I ordered the new battery, it's only $24 and free return, so I am going to try that.

You have any idea what else I can test at the mean time?

Thanks

 

[DaveC426913]

You have any idea what else I can test at the mean time?

I think your time would be better spent elsewhere while you wait for the battery.
I agree that is by far the most likely culprit.

How can you test anything else if it keeps happening? You've got to rule out that cause before you can test for anything else. Otherwise, every time you meddle with something else, if it continues to shut down, you'll have no idea what the root problem is/was.

 

[yungman]

I think your time would be better spent elsewhere while you wait for the battery.
I agree that is by far the most likely culprit.

How can you test anything else if it keeps happening? You've got to rule out that cause before you can test for anything else. Otherwise, every time you meddle with something else, if it continues to shut down, you'll have no idea what the root problem is/was.

Yeh, I am not working on it anymore, battery is coming tomorrow, free return.

I really want to save this computer, I bought and return a new one yesterday because my few old programs are too old and it won't install. That cost a lot( I mean a whole lot more) than the laptop. So I am actually in mode of fixing the old computers.

Maybe I should buy another Windows 10 laptop as spare, Just my old photoshop worth 2 of the new laptop. On top, my wife don't like to learn new stuffs, she's good with old programs, For me, I have some old CADS programs I use, they are OLD. That will be $thousands if I have to buy a new version. IF IT WORKS, DON'T FIX IT. That's my principle!!!

 

[yungman]

Battery arrived, installed. It is half full the beginning, computer read it right. The reliability report still remain in lower part, but it takes time to change.

So for now, I just wait and see. The old battery definitely DEAD for sure. I can power up the laptop with the new battery without the power cable plug in.

 

[jedishrfu]

Concerning banging things around, I had a Lenovo (IBM) work laptop that I would routinely pick up while open from the right corner and juggle to a meeting. You can imagine the 2 to 3-lb weight I was juggling. I heard an abrupt sniping sound and realized I had stressed and cracked the system board.

The computer worked but was sporadic in operation, rebooting whenever, so I had to get the system board replaced. IBM's in-house remote repair strategy was to send me a new Thinkpad frame with its embedded system board, swap my drives over to the new frame, and send the old one back.

 

[yungman]

The laptop is not shutting down so far, but the reliability monitor is still not going back to the top. it's been 6hrs since I replaced the battery and it's 100% charged up.

Should I start to assume there's something else wrong? I am going to wait a few more hours before I print out the screen capture of the reliability monitor and post it here. Also give it a few more hours.

Thanks

 

[jedishrfu]

Do you have to register the battery with the machine? or is it from a third party and not the original manufacturer?

You could contact the laptop manufacturer or look on their website for similar kinds of problems and how they were resolved.

 

[yungman]

Concerning banging things around, I had a Lenovo (IBM) work laptop that I would routinely pick up while open from the right corner and juggle to a meeting. You can imagine the 2 to 3-lb weight I was juggling. I heard an abrupt sniping sound and realized I had stressed and cracked the system board.

The computer worked but was sporadic in operation, rebooting whenever, so I had to get the system board replaced. IBM's in-house remote repair strategy was to send me a new Thinkpad frame with its embedded system board, swap my drives over to the new frame, and send the old one back.

I am talking about trouble shooting, I do not ban things around normally. There comes a point you wear out stuff and crack stuff that is in perfect condition. I don't ban of the tv or other stuff for no reason.

I learn this as a field service technician at the start of my career. People in R&D engineering that would never experience. Over 60%( conservatively) were cold solder or lose connectors when we went for service call. You will never see this if you are in design phase, R&D, development. I've been in electronic field for 30yrs to say this.

Let me tell you one big embarrassing experience. Just 7yrs or so ago, I had a 75" old rear projection tv, that started going out after 20 years. I kicked it, shake it, wack on it, it did not show any flickering. So I called a service guy. He came, I described what I did and told him that it's not lose component. He didn't say anything, took out the main pcb, just touch up some soldering points, put it back in, AND IT WORKED!!!

COSTED ME $150 for a 10min service and left me embarrassed. I STILL KICKING MYSELF, how can I taught engineers and technicians for years about this and I got caught cold like this. It's not about money, it's the pride that got hurt!!!

 

[yungman]

I still see problem in the reliability report after 9hrs. Here is the screen captures of the report and the one that describe the problem. I have no idea what those stuffs are in the detail on the fault.

This is the description of the fault.

Anyone can help?

thanks

 

[berkeman]

but the reliability monitor is still not going back to the top

What does this mean?

 

[jedishrfu]

@yungman, it's a common misconception that engineers don't bang things. We all have our personal experiences with odd methods of fixing stuff.

The problem is that physical banging may cause added problems, so what was once a single issue has devolved into many problems. I'm not saying that your technique doesn't work, but you should respect other methods of fixing stuff based more on observing the symptoms and then seeking out the reason using your experience and training.

---

The best example is the mechanic who can listen to a car motor, know what is wrong, and then find the exact cause. Other times, his method doesn't work. We had a great radio show called CarTalk, where these two brothers, Click and Clack, would take on-air phone calls and diagnose problems based on the descriptions.

My favorite episode, presented as a Puzzler, was about a driver with unbalanced tires on cold mornings. He'd go to work and hear the lumpiness. He brought it to a mechanic several times, but they stuck it in their work queue and got to it hours later, taking the tires off and finding no problem. The tires were balanced.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Car_Talk



Eventually, the driver called Click and Clack, and they told him that he must have water in the tires. On cold mornings, the water would freeze, resulting in unbalanced tires, but in the warmer afternoons or just by driving, it would spread evenly around the tires; enough, and they were now balanced.

---

In another case study, some engineers dropped a sled of underwater sensing equipment into the ocean for deep-sea studies. When they went to retrieve the sled by sending an acoustic signal to activate the flotation system, it didn't respond. They were perplexed by what happened because it was a proven method. Fortunately, they had taken pictures of the last-minute wiring of all the sled components and discovered their crossed wiring mistake.

Sadly, they had the arduous task of dredging for the sled with an anchor to pull it up, but at least they knew what went wrong because of the pictures taken.

 

[yungman]

@yungman, it's a common misconception that engineers don't bang things. We all have our personal experiences with odd methods of fixing stuff.

The problem is that physical banging may cause added problems, so what was once a single issue has devolved into many problems. I'm not saying that your technique doesn't work, but you should respect other methods of fixing stuff based more on observing the symptoms and then seeking out the reason using your experience and training.

---

The best example is the mechanic who can listen to a car motor, know what is wrong, and then find the exact cause. Other times, his method doesn't work. We had a great radio show called CarTalk, where these two brothers, Click and Clack, would take on-air phone calls and diagnose problems based on the descriptions.

My favorite episode, presented as a Puzzler, was about a driver with unbalanced tires on cold mornings. He'd go to work and hear the lumpiness. He brought it to a mechanic several times, but they stuck it in their work queue and got to it hours later, taking the tires off and finding no problem. The tires were balanced.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Car_Talk



Eventually, the driver called Click and Clack, and they told him that he must have water in the tires. On cold mornings, the water would freeze, resulting in unbalanced tires, but in the warmer afternoons or just by driving, it would spread evenly around the tires; enough, and they were now balanced.

---

In another case study, some engineers dropped a sled of underwater sensing equipment into the ocean for deep-sea studies. When they went to retrieve the sled by sending an acoustic signal to activate the flotation system, it didn't respond. They were perplexed by what happened because it was a proven method. Fortunately, they had taken pictures of the last-minute wiring of all the sled components and discovered their mistake.

Sadly, they had the arduous task of dredging for the sled with an anchor to pull it up, but at least they knew what went wrong because of the pictures taken.

I did not say be rough on electronics and stuffs. I don't bang my computers. you are talking about rough day in day out. That's called "wearing out". Treat the stuffs gentle, but if there's a problem, you ban it a few times to check.

I can only speak from my decades of experience in real life. NOT from academic, R&D environment, but from experience in field service. You'll never see this in academic world, even in engineering phase of the product.

Let's me repeat, when we went out and did service call, over 60% were cold solder, lose connections. It just happen. You'll very seldom see this in prototype, development. This kind of problem only develop with AGE.

It is lucky that I actually started from the bottom, my degree was chemistry and I hate it. I got into field service because I was/am very good with my hands in fixing things. I fell in love with electronics and I literally self studied and learn on my own. So I don't belong to the academic side. I gone far in my career in design of RF and analog side of things. So I really see the difference between academic vs real life.

I don't want to talk too much as they will close this thread if I disagree with the consensus here. Maybe I should look up other forums, I just thought I give this place the traffic first as I was helping this forum like 15yrs ago, so I come back here first.

 

[yungman]

Back to my question, PLEASE do not close this thread as my opinion is different from consensus here.

The laptop did not fail for 24hrs. BUT the reliability report still showing it's not up all the way. But the report show no error. This is the reliability report today.

There only a yellow "!", no more failure.


I am looking at the PowerENGAGE, I search on computer and went on line. I don't know exactly whet it is for, Can I delete the whole folder, I don't even think it's being used.

Thanks

 

[yungman]

I am not an engineer but I was under the impression that the lift-drop fix is really only useful on newer equipmment, where components might not be quite seated properly. I would think doing that to a device that's many years old would be contra-indicated. But that's just IMHO.

I am talking about old equipment. Like I said my giant screen in post #14. I don't see that kind of problem in R&D environment hardly. You'd be really surprised those cold solder is a huge problem. Talk to people in the service environment( electronic repair people).

My 4yrs old laptop developed problem after 3 years, I opened it, pulled the DRAM card in and out a few times, been working since for a year.

 

[jedishrfu]

No, sometimes, old system boards with sockets may need component reseating to get things working.

One common issue that frequently crops up on the Commodore 64 forums is the presence of leaky capacitors and faulty power supplies. These are problems that need to be addressed promptly before trying to fire it up.

A hobbyist finds an old C64, and they first try to power it on with the old power supply. Pff, the machine is gone, and now it's time to get a new PS and fix whatever got blown.

 

[Vanadium 50]

Engineers shall hold paramount the safety, health, and welfare of the public
Engineers shall perform services only in the areas of their competence.

From the NSPE.

"Nothing bad has happened yet" is not a synonym for "safe".

"I've banged things besides batters around nothing bad happened" does not mean it is safe to do that with battreries.

"What do all those battery safety experts with their book laening' know about sagey anyway?" goes directly counter to the NSPE's statement on ethics above.

This is foolish, dangerous, and the Mentors were right to warn you about it. I encourage you to heed the NSPE ethics statement.

 

[yungman]

From the NSPE.

"Nothing bad has happened yet" is not a synonym for "safe".

"I've banged things besides batters around nothing bad happened" does not mean it is safe to do that with battreries.

"What do all those battery safety experts with their book laening' know about sagey anyway?" goes directly counter to the NSPE's statement on ethics above.

This is foolish, dangerous, and the Mentors were right to warn you about it. I encourage you to heed the NSPE ethics statement.

Please do not interrupt my post, If we can have a real debate and argument without people helping you, locking the thread, Physics forum becoming one sided "truth". I am more than happy to argue with you. What is your credential? PhD, Inventor?

Sad, that they are going to lock up this thread as usual, I guess I have to look up new forum. This is 20yrs later, there are forums for every subject, not like older days that Physics forums is one of the very few around.

 

[berkeman]

Sad, that they are going to lock up this thread as usual,

Thread closed temporarily for Moderation...

 

[PeterDonis]

After moderator review, the thread will remain closed.