Length of postdoc before getting faculty position?

[Locrian]

Even still, there is a lot of bad information. Where I did undergraduate, the three professors I went to for advice on graduate school and jobs told me that the US was facing a dramatic shortage of talent and there would never be a better time to go into physics. Meanwhile, one of the postdocs told me his supervisor told him not to talk to students about his career trajectory, because it might scare them off.

My experience was strikingly similar. The same grad student who convinced me to change majors to physics as an undergrad serenaded me two years later with a crazy rant about how awful the degree was. Around 2000 all you heard was how the profession was graying and there was going to be massive demand for physicists in a few years. No one mentioned that people had been saying that for a decade. They’re probably still saying it.

Of course it worked out alright for me. I think physics can be a great education, but you have to choose your studies carefully. As others have mentioned, the thing that is most worrisome is the horrible misinformation that students get. There's a real conflict of interests involved in the entire grad student/post doc process that should be addressed.

If university hallways in the physics department had signs that said “Physics is an awesome degree so long as you don’t want to work in physics!” then I’d have no complaints. Maybe I still don’t, but lots of others do.

 

[twofish-quant]

Around 2000 all you heard was how the profession was graying and there was going to be massive demand for physicists in a few years. No one mentioned that people had been saying that for a decade. They’re probably still saying it.

At least we have forums like these.

I was lucky because my cynicism kept me from believing the non-sense about a scientist shortage, but what really surprised me was finding out that the issue of too many Ph.D.'s and too few jobs started in the late-1960's! During the 1950's and 1960's, there was a massive effort to increase the production of physics Ph.D.'s due to the Cold War, and this created a glut starting in the early-1970's!

Of course it worked out alright for me. I think physics can be a great education, but you have to choose your studies carefully. As others have mentioned, the thing that is most worrisome is the horrible misinformation that students get.

Same here. My issue was that I went through more personal agony that was necessary. It turns out that most of the decisions that I made were pretty good ones, but it didn't feel that way at the time.

There are some easy things that can be done to the physics Ph.D. programs to make them less dysfunctional. For example, if it's obvious that most physics Ph.D.'s aren't going to be faculty, then if you have a physics Ph.D. that wants to get an associate degree in plumbing or carpentry while they are taking the Ph.D. they should be *encouraged* to do that.

There's a real conflict of interests involved in the entire grad student/post doc process that should be addressed.

Curiously a lot of them involve conflicts of interest that are similar to the one's that you find in finance. The basic one is that people often to into Ph.D.'s willing to forego short term income for long term profit, so the graduate student is taking out a loan with their labor. The problem is that the bank/university benefits from the loan, but there is no strong incentive for the bank/university to be worried about the long term payback.

If university hallways in the physics department had signs that said “Physics is an awesome degree so long as you don’t want to work in physics!” then I’d have no complaints. Maybe I still don’t, but lots of others do.

"work in physics" != "have a job in academia"

As far as I'm concerned, I'm doing physics. The physics of money, but it's still physics.

 

[Locrian]

"work in physics" != "have a job in academia"

As far as I'm concerned, I'm doing physics. The physics of money, but it's still physics.

I didn't say it did.

I'll bet breakfast I would strongly disagree with you about the work you do being physics, if I knew the specifics of what you did. I'd also bet lunch most in the physics community would agree with me, though I wouldn't spend much time arguing that was a good measure.

 

[twofish-quant]

I'll bet breakfast I would strongly disagree with you about the work you do being physics, if I knew the specifics of what you did. I'd also bet lunch most in the physics community would agree with me, though I wouldn't spend much time arguing that was a good measure.

I bet you are right.

However, what really matters here is what I believe, and how I define "physics" and "academia." Since I was little, I wanted to do "physics" and work in "academia." It took me a while to figure out that my definitions of "physics" and "academia" are quite different from those of other people.

 

[atyy]

It's physics as long as it's verifable by experiments or observation.

 

[twofish-quant]

It's physics as long as it's verifable by experiments or observation.

The weird thing about that definition is that means that what I'm doing is more "physics" than what most theoretical string theorists are doing.

 

[MathematicalPhysicist]

The weird thing about that definition is that means that what I'm doing is more "physics" than what most theoretical string theorists are doing.

You shouldn't have typed "theoretical", as in I don't think there's any expreimental string theorist. :-D

 

[atyy]

You shouldn't have typed "theoretical", as in I don't think there's any expreimental string theorist. :-D

Oh, what makes you so sure they are not finding extra dimensions at the LHC at this very moment ;)