Louisiana governor signs creationist bill

[Moridin]

http://www.ncseweb.org/resources/news/2008/LA/188_louisiana_governor_signs_creat_6_27_2008.asp

Louisiana's Governor Bobby Jindal signed Senate Bill 733 (PDF) into law, 27 years after the state passed its Balance Treatment for Evolution-Science and Creation-Science Act, a law overturned by the U.S. Supreme Court in 1987. Jindal's approval of the bill was buried in a press release issued on June 25, 2008, announcing 75 bills he signed in recent days. Houma Today reports (June 27, 2008) that the bill "will empower educators to pull religious beliefs into topics like evolution, cloning and global warming by introducing supplemental materials."

Bill Barrow of the New Orleans Times-Picayune broke the story on June 27, 2008, observing that "Gov. Bobby Jindal attracted national attention and strongly worded advice about how he should deal with the Louisiana Science Education Act," and that he "ignored those calling for a veto and this week signed the law that will allow local school boards to approve supplemental materials for public school science classes as they discuss evolution, cloning and global warming." While Jindal did not return media calls for comment, Barrow reports that "Jindal issued a brief statement that read in part: 'I will continue to consistently support the ability of school boards and BESE to make the best decisions to ensure a quality education for our children.'"

[...]

Bill opponents say that they are ready to take action should such problems arise. "We're known for suing school boards when we need to do so and we won't shy away from doing that if that's what we need to do this case," the ACLU's Esman told WWL-TV. Barry Lynn, executive director of Americans United for Separation of Church and State took a firm stance in a press release (June 27, 2008): "Let me state clearly and upfront that any attempts to use this law to sneak religion into public schools through the back door will not be tolerated. … I call on all concerned residents of Louisiana to help us make sure that public schools educate, not indoctrinate."

 

[robertm]

NOOOOO! This is a sad day for the children of Louisiana... This is the direct work of the bastards at the Discovery Institute.


http://lasciencecoalition.org/"
http://www.discovery.org/csc/"

 

[Moonbear]

We should have let the southern states secede when we had the chance.

 

[OAQfirst]

Now do we get an excuse to sneak science into bible studies?

 

[robertm]

This really scares me. It's the 21st century for Darwin's sake! This kind of direct violation of science, morality, progress, and not to mention the freakin' Constitution should never be allowed by any responsible adult, religious or not.

Christopher Hitchens has a good idea:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q62Q7GdTC74&feature=related"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_bYYO4phrI0&feature=related"

If you want to skip to the relevant point (though I would recommend the whole talk), it's starts at the 8:15 mark in the first clip, and ends at the 1:32 mark in the second clip.

 

[Hurkyl]

It's now legal in Louisiana for teachers to use materials other than the standard textbook in their classes? And teachers are now permitted to teach students how to analyze and critique things in an objective fashion? My gosh, what's the world coming to?

 

[Ki Man]

...ignored those calling for a veto and this week signed the law that will allow local school boards to approve supplemental materials for public school science classes as they discuss evolution, cloning and global warming.

It seems as though this is going beyond just evolution in attacking science. The first two are religious but the last one has to be political, (unless there is a bible verse I'm unaware of that states "and then the Lord set the Earth's thermostat and decided to keep it there.")

Politicians really should not be allowed to act on their own in deciding science policies (unless they have a scientific degree.)

 

[robertm]

It's now legal in Louisiana for teachers to use materials other than the standard textbook in their classes? And teachers are now permitted to teach students how to analyze and critique things in an objective fashion? My gosh, what's the world coming to?

Their is NOTHING objective about scripture based psuedo-science.

That is what the proponents of Intelligent Design and the christian bible say. Do you think there is validity to ID? Do you not think that a theory completely based on scripture should be kept out of PUBLIC Government funded schools?

What other theories could possible be taught besides ID? This was a back-door underhanded cheap shot by the Discovery Institute to introduce the ability to have creationism taught to the children of a nation who's highest law demands the separation of church and state.

It is a disgust to science and the first step down a slippery slope.

 

[NeoDevin]

I would recommend all parents in the areas affected keep an eye on what the biology teachers are using as alternative materials, and begin a lawsuit if there appears to be ANY creationist bias.

 

[Moonbear]

I would recommend all parents in the areas affected keep an eye on what the biology teachers are using as alternative materials, and begin a lawsuit if there appears to be ANY creationist bias.

Yes, the law allows such abuse of it to be challenged. Unfortunately, it is written in a way that opens the door for the damage to be done before the challenge is made.

My earlier joke aside, there is a good side to this one. When textbooks are inadequate to address the questions raised by students, or when a teacher may find other materials that can enhance a lesson, they are able to bring in those materials and use them without being restricted to teaching only from a textbook that may inadequately cover the topic (for all I know, this legislations could be initiated by someone who thought the textbooks approved by the local school board were dreadfully inadequate in covering those topics...for example, if a school board can't promote creationism, they just might instead approve crappy textbooks that don't cover the topic of evolution adequately at all, so kids remain sufficiently gullible).

 

[robertm]

My earlier joke aside, there is a good side to this one. When textbooks are inadequate to address the questions raised by students, or when a teacher may find other materials that can enhance a lesson, they are able to bring in those materials and use them without being restricted to teaching only from a textbook that may inadequately cover the topic (for all I know, this legislations could be initiated by someone who thought the textbooks approved by the local school board were dreadfully inadequate in covering those topics...for example, if a school board can't promote creationism, they just might instead approve crappy textbooks that don't cover the topic of evolution adequately at all, so kids remain sufficiently gullible).

True, that would be great if it was the goal. However, teachers have always had the ability to educate themselves with outside material to better inform inquisitive students. Not to mention giving references for outside of class.

It is clear that this bill was not put forth to allow enhanced science education, though it could be used as such. I repeat, a main proponent of the bill: The Discovery Institute. The same organization who built the Creation Museum in Kentucky, where they brain wash masses of children every day: http://www.creationmuseum.org/about"

 

[OAQfirst]

...When textbooks are inadequate to address the questions raised by students, or when a teacher may find other materials that can enhance a lesson, they are able to bring in those materials and use them without being restricted to teaching only from a textbook that may inadequately cover the topic...

Was that actually a problem? One that drove the bill forward?

 

[robertm]

Anyway, see for yourself:

A good history of the bill:
http://www.talk2action.org/story/2008/6/26/18920/8497"

A great release by the Louisiana Coalition for Science:
http://lasciencecoalition.org/docs/Release_LFCS_NYT_Jindal_6.22.08.pdf"

 

[NeoDevin]

I guess at this point we're depending on the science/biology teachers themselves to point to appropriate supplementary materials.

Hopefully by the time my son gets to high school (quite a while to go before that) this whole thing will be a non-issue. If not, I will personally make sure he gets a proper high school level education about evolutionary biology.

 

[robertm]

Hopefully by the time my son gets to high school (quite a while to go before that) this whole thing will be a non-issue. If not, I will personally make sure he gets a proper high school level education about evolutionary biology.

Good for you!

 

[lisab]

Now do we get an excuse to sneak science into bible studies?

Great idea! I'm an atheist secular humanist...can I teach Sunday School now ?

 

[NeoDevin]

Now do we get an excuse to sneak science into bible studies?

That's actually not a half bad idea. Perhaps all the atheists should do our best to get hired as sunday school, bible study, and/or religion class teachers. Then, once we're in place, we don't even have to teach any controversy or bring in outside materials.

Just make sure every class you go over at least two bible verses. Pick ones which contradict each other.

 

[robertm]

Just make sure every class you go over at least two bible verses. Pick ones which contradict each other.

That would be the easiest job ever!

 

[WarPhalange]

"Here we have 'God is Love' and here we have the story of God letting Satan test Job's faith. You see, it's not contradictory, because God LOVES to see people's family's get torn apart -- literally."

 

[Moonbear]

I guess at this point we're depending on the science/biology teachers themselves to point to appropriate supplementary materials.

Hopefully by the time my son gets to high school (quite a while to go before that) this whole thing will be a non-issue. If not, I will personally make sure he gets a proper high school level education about evolutionary biology.

You can always send him and any of his interested classmates to the biology forum here. We'll make sure he's taken care of with those lessons.

That's actually not a half bad idea. Perhaps all the atheists should do our best to get hired as sunday school, bible study, and/or religion class teachers. Then, once we're in place, we don't even have to teach any controversy or bring in outside materials.

Just make sure every class you go over at least two bible verses. Pick ones which contradict each other.

Sometimes even the well-meaning ones do it accidentally. I remember a Sunday school lesson when I was in 6th grade. The Sunday school teacher talked the entire class session about euthanasia. We all walked out discussing how that really does seem like a humane thing to do for someone with a terminal illness. Only years later did I find out the official church position is AGAINST euthanasia. I guess that's what the lesson was supposed to be about, but that sure wasn't what we all walked out thinking was right.

 

[Moridin]

It's now legal in Louisiana for teachers to use materials other than the standard textbook in their classes? And teachers are now permitted to teach students how to analyze and critique things in an objective fashion? My gosh, what's the world coming to?

Teachers are already doing that. "Teach the strengths and weaknesses" or "Academic freedom" is just the new code terms for creationism. The have changed it since Dover. Why focus specially on evolution? Why not organic chemistry? It is simply a pretense to bring in creationist material. Do you think that phlogiston material should also be introduced in chemistry to teach children how to analyze and critique the atomic theory in an "objective fashion"? Why is creationism skipping the mainstream method of getting things into textbooks and using legal methods instead of research and peer-review?

Should James Anderson's transreal numbers be taught in math class to critically analyze number theory?

 

[robertm]

Sometimes even the well-meaning ones do it accidentally. I remember a Sunday school lesson when I was in 6th grade. The Sunday school teacher talked the entire class session about euthanasia. We all walked out discussing how that really does seem like a humane thing to do for someone with a terminal illness. Only years later did I find out the official church position is AGAINST euthanasia. I guess that's what the lesson was supposed to be about, but that sure wasn't what we all walked out thinking was right.

Haha! Good story! I remember getting kicked out of Sunday school when I was about 7-8 for refusing to believe that any human being could survive being swallowed by a whale! They were so mad at me, so I just went in played in the grass for the rest of the afternoon. That's one of my fondest childhood memories!

 

[Hurkyl]

Their is NOTHING objective about scripture based psuedo-science.

Have you read the text of senate bill 733? If not, you really should.

Teachers are already doing that.

Good -- then the signing of senate bill 733 into law changes absolutely nothing. So why the complaints?

 

[Gokul43201]

About LA Governor, Bobby Jindal...

The crucifix had a calming effect on Susan, and her sister was soon brave enough to bring a Bible to her face. At first, Susan responded to biblical passages with curses and profanities. Mixed in with her vile attacks were short and desperate pleas for help. In the same breath that she attacked Christ, the Bible's authenticity, and everyone assembled in prayer, Susan would suddenly urge us to rescue her. It appeared as if we were observing a tremendous battle between the Susan we knew and loved and some strange evil force. But the momentum had shifted and we now sensed that victory was at hand.

http://www.time-blog.com/swampland/2008/06/jindals_exorcism.html

Incidentally, the way the bill is written there are really no good grounds for rejecting it (in my opinion). But sooner, rather than later, I expect it will be abused enough to produce at least one high profile lawsuit...probably soon after schools start, sometime in September/October (that's just before November, by the way).

 

[jostpuur]

Good -- then the signing of senate bill 733 into law changes absolutely nothing. So why the complaints?

I'm not believing this easily. Bills are not made for fun. Surely it changes something?

Judging by other posts, it seems that it is a careful attempt to make creationism one step closer to schools, because too big step towards that goal would be stroke down immediately.

 

[Moridin]

Have you read the text of senate bill 733? If not, you really should.


Good -- then the signing of senate bill 733 into law changes absolutely nothing. So why the complaints?

Because it is an excuse to bring creationist material into the class room.

 

[Hurkyl]

Because it is an excuse to bring creationist material into the class room.

It seems uncharacteristic of you to consider creationist materials helpful in understanding, analyzing, critiquing, and reviewing scientific theories in an objective manner...

 

[Moridin]

It seems uncharacteristic of you to consider creationist materials helpful in understanding, analyzing, critiquing, and reviewing scientific theories in an objective manner...

To me: yes. To creationist politicians and members of school boards: not so much.

 

[Hurkyl]

To me: yes. To creationist politicians and members of school boards: not so much.

In other words... there is absolutely nothing wrong with senate bill 733?

 

[jostpuur]

In other words... there is absolutely nothing wrong with senate bill 733?

Those other words have other meaning too.

 

[robertm]

In other words... there is absolutely nothing wrong with senate bill 733?

Did you read the bill? The bill is useless for anything except ID propaganda. The bill was designed by the Discovery Institute. The same exact organization that tried this crap in Dover Pennsylvania in 2005. That bill was shot down as creationism legislation. So they took a different approach, changed creationism to Intelligent Design and made it in the name of 'academic freedom' instead of god.

The bill is useless if it is only meant for what they say it is. So why did it pass?

You think it is coincidence that Gov. Jindal supports Creationism, the Dis.Inst. is one of the bill's main proponents, and the LA Family Forum (a christian organization) is the other main proponent? I think not.

 

[Hurkyl]

Did you read the bill? The bill is useless for anything except ID propaganda.

So... you're saying that ID propaganda falls under the category of "instructional materials to help students understand, analyze, critique, and review scientific theories in an objective manner"? And you further assert that any other sorts of materials (e.g. scientific textbooks) do not fall under that category?

Again, that seems very uncharacteristic of you...

 

[jostpuur]

Moridin and robertm are saying that creationists are saying that ID falls under the category of "instructional materials to help students understand, analyze, critique, and review scientific theories in an objective manner".

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

Moridin and robertm are saying that creationists are saying that ID falls under the category of "instructional materials to help students understand, analyze, critique, and review scientific theories in an objective manner".

I'm sure that there are all sorts of laws and systems in place in various states that could potentially allow what ever group of crackpots you want to mention to try to get their material in schools. If they're going to try, and the people who are in charge are going to allow it, then there really isn't much you can do about it whether this bill exists or not.
The point is that the actual content of the bill is not at all biased and so there is really no sound reason to argue against it except to invoke paranoia (keeping in mind that paranoia doesn't mean one is wrong). If the system works the way it should then there is nothing to worry about. If it doesn't they can and will get their pants sued off and nothing in the bill will save them.

 

[Moridin]

Moridin and robertm are saying that creationists are saying that ID falls under the category of "instructional materials to help students understand, analyze, critique, and review scientific theories in an objective manner".

No, we are saying that it is a well-made excuse in order to bring in creationist material, not that ID is instructional materials that help students.