Mixing household bleach with urine

[mudder]

Hello everyone,

Not that I looking to experiment or anything, but anyway...correct me if I'm wrong anywhere here...please.

An associate of mine was wondering how to get rid of cat urine smell. Having exhausted all attempts to cover it up or use that enzyme stuff, I told him I usually treat the offending area(because I have 3 cats, I know)with a solution of household bleach. The ensuing reaction liberates a lot of chlorine gas and that he should leave the area for a short time as chlorine gas is very irritating. (I do this all the time, and my kitties love me)
A friend strongly advised him not to mix bleach with urine because urine has ammonia in it. And the gas is toxic and will kill you.

Well first off I don't think urine has ammonia in it because urine is acidic. (Uric acid). The ammonia you smell from a cat's litter box is from the decomposition of the nitrogen rich by-products of metabolism. Correct so far?

Secondly the gas is chlorine because sodium hypochlorite is an oxidizer and it gives up it's oxygen in the process and liberates chlorine as a by-product.

Third the reaction is also somewhat of a typical acid-base reaction because bleach has a high ph and urine has a low ph.

I don't think I'm too far off base with the description of the reaction, or the origin of that ammonia smell, am I??
Please someone correct me if I'm wrong.

Also just out of curiosity, what would be the final products of a reaction with an oxidizer like sodium hypochlorite and uric acid and urea?
Carbon dioxide, water, sodium chloride. hmmmmm...where does all that nitrogen go??

Also what would the result of mixing ammonia and bleach? Hmmmm...?
I know it doesn't smell good, but do they even react?

Thanx for looking

Jim

The acid in the urine is what makes the bleach/ammonia mixture more volatile. mixing ammonia with bleach is not a good idea, unless in a controlled situation. When you add acid from urine is when chlorine gas begins to form more rapidly. When done in a well vented area, no harm done. When done within closed doors, it creates possibility for permanent injury or death. Most people would leave the area from sheer irritation before this would happen, but people have died in this manner.

 

[mudder]

especially with large quantities of partially dried animal urine

 

[thomas.beeler]

There's a better way than using clorox to get rid of the urine smell. Clorox also damages carpets irreparably. Household bleach might work if you're ready to evacuate the house for a day or so while the chlorine gas dissipates. Otherwise you can neutralize the smell with an H2O2 peroxide solution bought at the grocery store. You can tell if it's (the peroxide) reacting with the urine if it begins to foam slowly after a minute or so. When you treat a urine-stained carpet with peroxide, it will also make a soft bubbly sound after a minute (hold your ear close). As long as it bubbles you need to keep treating the carpet. Then dry the carpet with a vacuum and towels.

I once 'rescued' a pet infested house by treating all of the floors with 25 gallons of clorox over a period of a week. It was highly unpleasant but the house increased in value by 125% when I was finished. I didn't die either.

 

[asoto1964]

I cannot believe that after reading all of these responses, and maybe I just missed it, but not one person mentioned "Mustard Gas." Mixing Bleach with Ammonia, or Urine (Animal or Human) which contains Ammonia, creates a homemade version of mustard gas. This stuff is not military grade mustard gas, but it is the closest one can come to creating this biological terror gas at home. In fact, mixing bleach with urine, ammonia, vinegar should not be done unless you're MacGuyver or some grunt in the trenches, who just happens to have all the ingredients necessary to make this weapon -and needs to make it! Bottom line... Don't mess with this stuff!

 

[dreiter]

I cannot believe that after reading all of these responses, and maybe I just missed it, but not one person mentioned "Mustard Gas." Mixing Bleach with Ammonia, or Urine (Animal or Human) which contains Ammonia, creates a homemade version of mustard gas. This stuff is not military grade mustard gas, but it is the closest one can come to creating this biological terror gas at home. In fact, mixing bleach with urine, ammonia, vinegar should not be done unless you're MacGuyver or some grunt in the trenches, who just happens to have all the ingredients necessary to make this weapon -and needs to make it! Bottom line... Don't mess with this stuff!

I think nobody has mentioned it because there are rules against posting about how to make dangerous chemical combinations, especially weaponized chemical compounds.

 

[Borek]

I think nobody mentioned that, because it has nothing to do with the mustard gas.

 

[asoto1964]

Why not mention it? That is exactly what it is... Check anywhere on the internet, and you can verify that mixing any of these chemicals will absolutely produce a "homemade" grade of this lethal gas. It's just ironic to me because when I hear "Bleach & Ammonia" I automatically think mustard gas. And I did some checking... Most people I asked, when I mentioned, bleach and ammonia automatically thought mustard gas too. It is just strange to me that on a forum where there are so many people that I would consider intelligent, no one would call it that -or at the very least make mention of its biological uses and clear potential for danger as a gas. And, it's like I said before... I am not saying this combination is military grade, but it is a lesser, but still very toxic, version of what the military produces. Listen friend, this hits me close to home because these components nearly killed me some years back. I still suffer from the affects of the combination of these chemicals. I solemnly believe that promoting the dangers of these chemicals, even if only when mixed when urine is present, will definitely save lives.

 

[Borek]

Mixing ammonia and bleach can produce chloramines, not a mustard gas.

 

[michaelc187]

I use about 10 percent bleach in water; using it
for the shower since college

my problem isn't getting rid of the smell, but how to keep them from coming back?

the ten percent stuff is a lot more safe, i spray it on my hang down curtains -without worrying about color or smell.

 

[Stopik]

This is officially my favorite forum thread from the entire internet of all times.

 

[Stopik]

Why not mention it? That is exactly what it is... Check anywhere on the internet, and you can verify that mixing any of these chemicals will absolutely produce a "homemade" grade of this lethal gas. It's just ironic to me because when I hear "Bleach & Ammonia" I automatically think mustard gas. And I did some checking... Most people I asked, when I mentioned, bleach and ammonia automatically thought mustard gas too. .

Mustard gas is actually made from sulfur mustards. Specifically mixing sulfur dichloride with ethylene (among a few other methods). Bleach is a chlorite so I can understand the confusion. However anyone stupid enough to mix bleach and ammonia deserves the "chlorinating of the gene pool" that would result. Wait, I just remembered I did the exact same thing when I was nine because my chemistry set told me not to do it. Fair enough.

 

[Ath]

Sodium Bicarbonate (Baking Soda) should help.

Just rub the dry powder into the offending areas.

 

[Histo-Cat]

I have asked about 10 different people the question. I came close on a few people
(VETS) from all the organic chemisty they take, but no one really knew what was really being created in the reaction. One got it right for the Acid Base reaction... if that is still true..
I clean up after my cats in the basement of my house, sort of a small area- as I have on problem cat.. she is now better on Prozac... But I would pour the thick type of bleach on the urine. Then mop up the accident. Sometime the reaction would be so bad, my eyes would start watering, my chest would get tight. I could hardly breath. Then I would stumble out of the area and wonder what the heck is going on?
I stopped using such large amounts, but it was so cheap.
So, Mustard Gas... that is hard to believe. Thanks so much the answer!

 

[Athiril]

Sounds like chlorine gas.

 

[DDTea]

I truly don't understand why people perpetuate the myth that chlorine + ammonia --> mustard. It's simply not true. Besides, if you were exposed to mustard, you'd have the tell-tale blisters to show afterward. Sulfur mustards are prepared by chlorinating thiodiglycol or by reaction of ethylene and sulfur dichloride. If you need further evidence, look at the structure of the reactants and products: Mustards (whether sulfur, nitrogen, or other derivatives) ALL have carbon chains in them. Neither Cl2 nor NH3 have any carbon whatsoever in them. Mustard agents are not things that can be prepared "accidentally" and the precursors involved are regulated under the 1997 Chemical Weapons Convention (although some do appear in household products).

Just because it's not mustard doesn't mean the vapors produced aren't dangerous. Besides being toxic, the chloramines and hydrazine (under the right conditions) produced are carcinogenic.

There are also other chloramines, including monochloramine and dichloramine, that are produced as well. When I run a simulation at the high pH of bleach, the predominant product is monochloramine, so perhaps that is what you smell though dichloramine is also produced in significant quantities and it is more volatile than monochloramine. I was probably wrong about the nitrogen trichloride since at high pH not much of it is produced.

Richard

bingo.

 

[chemisttree]

I'm thinking that someone somewhere said (posted on the Internet) that you could make your own version of mustard gas (tearing, choking nastiness) by mixing these two together. Then someone else came along that didn't know the chemistry of mustards and just assumed that "what they saw on the Internet" was to be taken literally.

Thanks, Al Gore! Now go screw up something else...

 

[Nicodemus]

I'm thinking that someone somewhere said (posted on the Internet) that you could make your own version of mustard gas (tearing, choking nastiness) by mixing these two together. Then someone else came along that didn't know the chemistry of mustards and just assumed that "what they saw on the Internet" was to be taken literally.

Thanks, Al Gore! Now go screw up something else...

The nice thing about home chemists of the uneducated and criminal variety is the same as that with bomb-makers: generally poor outcomes.

 

[mspiegelman]

So...very interesting thread, and while I'm not sure of the components...would relay the following, which I fully realize makes me look like a fool. Regardless, the "reaction" was not benign.

2 dogs left in their room for maybe 8 hours max. Golden Retrievers...approx 40kg each.
Only provide this info so you can approx the max urine output. Cannot imagine it would be more then maybe 800cc.

Came home...they obviously have had an accident, but must have been hours as the result had dried into a sticky mess. Thus, obviously concentrated.

Like a fool, grabbed the closest cleaning agent (bleach)...and poured onto the mess WITHOUT diluting.

Instant violent reaction...and the resultant gas put me down quickly...QUICKLY. My eyes have a serious chemical burn, the inside of my nose blistered, and I have some upper airway burns as well. Had to have a bronch to check for lower airway involvement...alas I had escaped.

Comical...maybe somewhat, but I really did get hurt. Per my 9 year old "I guess you won't be doing that again dad, huh?"

 

[Marc Cannon]

Well, I am glad to have found this forum. I've been using a bleach and water mixture for years to mop my kitchen floor. I have two dogs. One of them is older, and he waits to go outside to urinate. But my little girl, who is less than two, can't hold it as long as he can, and if I can't home to take them out at lunch, she'll pee on the papers I keep laid out in the kitchen. She's a good shot, but sometimes urine bleeds over onto the floor. I regularly mop my kitchen floor and tend to use Armstrong cleaner, but periodically (if I'm out of a floor cleanser), I'll simply use bleach and hot water. Then I remop with hot water only. I've never had any problems, but I'll play it safe in the future. Once, a while back, before I knew about the ammonia-bleach issue, I mopped my kitchen and bathroom floors with a mixture of water, bleach and ammonia. I was talking to my mother later that day and told her I'd been cleaning the house and mopping all the floors. She asked me what I used, and I told her. She immediately warned me of the dangers and told me to never use that combination ever again. She was shocked I didn't know that was such a dangerous combination. I guess I was very lucky with that, too, because that also caused zero problems. But I didn't think about the urine-ammonia connection. Thanks so much for the helpful information everyone provides. I'll be smarter and safer about cleaning in the future.

 

[peterdorey]

Urine & Bleach

Only learned of possibilities of this today ... but really, is the tiny amount of ammonia in fresh human (fem) urine wee'd into a toilet bowl with a previous capful of (4.6g/100g conc.) NaClO poured ½hour beforehand going to release much toxicity? I Left the window open beforehand √
Has anyone done tests?

 

[ScienceGuy234]

Also what would the result of mixing ammonia and bleach? Hmmmm...?
I know it doesn't smell good, but do they even react?

Thanx for looking

Jim[/QUOTE]

Seiriously? It makes chlorine gas which was used as a weapon in world war 1 (I recommend you don't breathe it)

 

[msredginger]

I just was poisoned by the gas produced by putting bleach on dog urine on my basement floor. By the time I got it up after it began frothing I could not breath and was vomiting.

 

[Borek]

Go see the doc immediately then.

 

[NascentOxygen]

I think I've read that pets are attracted to the smell of areas that you've cleaned with bleach, and like to pee there.

But check with pet forums (not physics forums) for the last word on cleaning up after pets.

 

[epenguin]

The concentration of urea in cat urine was asked. It is a generalisation that urea is more concentrated in most terrestrial mammals than in humans. It would take some time to assemble data. See attached table ref http://www.open.edu/openlearn/natur...es-the-desert-environment/content-section-3.2 However the figure quoted there for humans is quite a lot larger than I have seem elsewhere and I think it can be a fraction of molar. Cat I have seen can attain 5M. This relatively poor water economy in humans has long been one element in the speculation that our ancestors passed at least a period of time somewhere where fresh water availability was not a limiting problem for them, for which I think there is more recent evidence. We are not in such conditions now in most places!

 

[GraHal]

Hello Everyone

I have wooden floorboards (old type / real wood) which have had urine (probably pet) on them and which periodically appear wet / very wet on the surface in one area of 1sq metre or so.

I have eliminated water leaks as a source and so it almost certainly is hygroscopic salts attracting moisture in the air. The boards appear dry most times and are very wet looking when the air is humid.

Anyway hazard a guess at what the salt(s) are most likely to be and the best way to eliminate / neutralise / chemically turn the salts into something else so they aren't hygroscopic anymore?

I was thinking white vinegar?

Thank You
GraHal

 

[tech99]

Hello Everyone

I have wooden floorboards (old type / real wood) which have had urine (probably pet) on them and which periodically appear wet / very wet on the surface in one area of 1sq metre or so.

I have eliminated water leaks as a source and so it almost certainly is hygroscopic salts attracting moisture in the air. The boards appear dry most times and are very wet looking when the air is humid.

Anyway hazard a guess at what the salt(s) are most likely to be and the best way to eliminate / neutralise / chemically turn the salts into something else so they aren't hygroscopic anymore?

I was thinking white vinegar?

Thank You
GraHal

Probably a urea compound, and as it is organic, I suggest using an enzyme to break it down, maybe protease or a commercially available product designed for the purpose.

 

[GraHal]

Probably a urea compound, and as it is organic, I suggest using an enzyme to break it down, maybe protease or a commercially available product designed for the purpose.

Thanks tech99.

Anybody know what is the 'most hygroscopic' salt there is likely to be on the boards?

Strong chance bleach was put on it and so what about ammonium chloride salt?

If I heat the boards with a blow lamp to almost a charred look ... would ammonium chloride and / or any other hygroscopic salts be converted / decomposed into gases (chlorine and ammonia?) and so the salt will be gone and so the boards will not longer absorb moisture from the air??

Thank You

 

[Tribo]

What lowered any level of fear I would have of bleach was that a friend at work told me that one of her friends was about to be screened for drugs and so she drank a whole bunch of bleach to "clean out" her system, she then threw up and passed the drug test. My friend told me that she would not have done that and would have rather be accused of taking drugs than drink bleach. I have never done any drugs nor drunk alcohol or smoked, but I agreed with her.

Oh, my God.

One thing I know for sure is that I'll never bathe in bleach or use it to scrub my tongue again.

Yes.

 

[HamalachMichael]

Well first off I don't think urine has ammonia in it because urine is acidic. (Uric acid). The ammonia you smell from a cat's litter box is from the decomposition of the nitrogen rich by-products of metabolism. Correct so far?

Hi.

That urine is acidic and contains uric acid does not mean it does not contain ammonia in one form or another. Ammonia is a gas, therefore if any ammonia will be found in urine it will not be in the gaseous form as NH3, but it will most likely form a salt with another chemical substance such as uric acid in so forming ammonium acid urate. Bleach contains sodium hypochlorite and has a high pH and urine will contain some ammonium salt, mix these together and the ammonium ion will be deprotonated into ammonia which in turn will react with the hypochlorite ion to form chloramine gas. Below is the mechanism behind the creation of the ammonium acid urate salt from ammonia and uric acid.

Any corrections and further comments are welcome.

 

[epenguin]

Kind of a misconception in that (apart from the figures illustrating practically nothing happening) Uric acid is not the nitrogenous product of excretion in humans (and mammals), on the other hand it is a quite undesirable compound because it is insoluble - so deposits of it can cause gout, gouty forms of arthritis and some types of gallstones. It is instead the solid excretory N product in birds and reptiles, guano. This acidity of what little dissolves in water is why you don't want it on your car paintwork. The human waste product is instead urea (NH₂)₂CO - about the most water-soluble substance there is.

Why any organism need to excrete nitrogen-containing substances, which then become liming for nutrition, instead of recycling them, is something rarely explained.

 

[WaltWhite]

My dog had peed on my cement floor (caught it fresh) and some of it had hit a hanging canvas curtain (probably what he was aiming for) and I wanted to blast out the pee stain and smell before it set. Liberally poured on both the curtain and floor and the reaction began. Started to fizz which I found interesting but then visible fumes started rising which I got a quick whiff of before recoiling from the smell. I threw down a towel and felt the heat from the reaction. Anyway, I wanted to get to the bottom of I found this. Hope it helps.https://www.cuteness.com/article/happens-dog-urine-bleach-mixed

Despite the name of the website the author seems to have done their research. Article below on Chloramine gas exposure.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/8506487/

 

[Actual Chemist]

I love how everyone is an armchair chemist. The only one in this thread who has even come close to a correct answer is Richard (chem geek) and his answers seem to have been ignored. For all those claiming "chlorine was released" because it smelled like chlorine have obvious never smelled chlorine gas. Not everything that smells like "chlorine" is chlorine gas. The gas everyone is smelling is a mixture of various chloramines...which, shock horror,,,smell passingly like chlorine. Chloramine "smell" is the smell you have on your skin after swimming in a chlorinated pool. That smell is not chlorine from the pool, but is chloramines formed from the proteins of your skin...smh...Read chem geeks response(s) for the answer...all other posts are speculative at best.

 

[DrClaude]

On this note, time to put this 10 year old thread to sleep in a humane manner.

Thread closed.