Mom sues preschool for damaging 4 yo Ivy League chances

[edward]

It was all about getting her daughter into Dalton School. They have an entrance exam even for kindergarten. Tuition is $31,000 at Dalton.

http://www.prepreview.com/school/Dalton_School.html

 

[edward]

Failing At Four.

http://nymag.com/nymetro/urban/education/features/1508/

 

[Calrid]

Indeed, but I think my point was that quite a few people are assuming that the lawsuit is frivolous simply because of the $19K; but $19K is what you have to pay to get your kid into a good pre-school that prepares your kid for the tests you your kid will need to pass to get into a good school, then the amount seems more reasonable.

I should perhaps point out that I don't like the idea of testing kids at an early age, but at the same time I have a 10-year old at home who is currently preparing for his entrance exams later this year. We are very well aware of the fact that if he does not get into a good school, then this will seriously affect his chances of getting into a good university, so the stakes are high even though he is only 10yo.
Like it or not: education is becoming more and more competitive even for very young kids and I can see where the NY mum is coming from.

I wouldn't worry that much, plenty of people have been to crappy universities or had no university education at all and still gone on to revolutionise the world, hell Einstein never even got onto a post graduate course because he did so badly in his exams. Equiv of a third I believe.

Richard Branson is dyslexic, did very badly at school, left with virtually no qualifications apart from some mediocre A' levels and is now head of one of the largest business empires in the UK.

That said you certainly want the best foundation, just if it doesn't pan out don't think it really matters all that much there's always a second, third, fourth chance at least in further education. Sometimes tenacity matters more than the random events that mean you **** up sometimes. That and hard work, they don't teach that on the curriculum. I should know I was that lazy but gifted kid and now I'm doing a degree in my mid 30s. Ok there were some mitigating circumstances like mental illness but I still feel if I would of been less of a lazy bastard I'd of been taking my exams in my mid 20s outside of f/t uni and not mid 30s.

Of course - and no disrespect to your kid - he just might be an artist not an academic, he may have a weoful IQ, by which I mean the things IQ tests, like reading, maths, spatial and memory skills but he might be the next Mozart. Your expectations shouldn't exceed the potential I think. You could put a moron through acamies and then Eton and he'd probably still be rubbish, ok he'd end up as a high court judge or MP through old school tie connections, but he'd still be a moron.

I think the case is kinda lame, frivolous maybe/maybe not can't say.

 

[Calrid]

Knowing what I know now, I wish my parents had pushed me harder themselves and had paid for better opportunities for me. I am of course thankful for the chances I HAVE been given by my parents, but I was capable of much more than the public education I received. That's life and I'll make the best of it, but I could have risen to the challenge and accomplished more, more quickly, if given better opportunities.

I was told "Just do your best" - but I should have been told "Perfection is expected. Excellence will be tolerated."

Yeah this also has the chance of creating people who try too hard and care too much about meaningless numerical systems that say nothing about your real aptitude. The real test is what you do with it when you leave education, then it actually becomes alarmingly real. I am not a number I am a human being. As important as arbitrary testing is to a person it does not define anything about them except their aptitude at an increasingly narrow part of the education spectrum.

Play it by ear if you think your kid needs a kick up the *** and to be really kicked hard do that , if you think it will have the opposite effect and mean he will crash and burn if he fails then don't. Let's face it how do you know you wouldn't of just had a bad exam and got into a spiral of shame induced by expectations that were too high? Eventually crashing and burning and ending up selling your body for crack.

Slippery slope but.

 

[f95toli]

I wouldn't worry that much, plenty of people have been to crappy universities or had no university education at all and still gone on to revolutionise the world,

True, but everyone want to give their kids as many chances as possible; and if you live in a country/city where the education system is very competitive then this is what happens.
I grew up in Sweden and never had to worry about any of this, I went to a regular school (there was only one school in my village) and still ended up going to the best technical university in Sweden, and then on to do a PhD. But London (and -I presume NY-) is very, very different. The quality of the schools vary a lot, this is for example reflected in the fact house prices are much higher if the house is in an area with good schools (and there are some very good state schools here as well).

That said you certainly want the best foundation, just if it doesn't pan out don't think it really matters all that much there's always a second, third, fourth chance at least in further education.

This is probably true to some extent; but in a competitive system it still matters which university you went to (for most subjects,); there are some really bad universities in the UK.

You could put a moron through acamies and then Eton and he'd probably still be rubbish, ok he'd end up as a high court judge or MP through old school tie connections, but he'd still be a moron.

Which sort of sums it up. Most kids are not exceptional, and if you want a bright future for a "normal" kid then you basically have to make sure he/she gets a good education. This is the reason why we are in this mess in the first place.

 

[f95toli]

It was all about getting her daughter into Dalton School. They have an entrance exam even for kindergarten. Tuition is $31,000 at Dalton.

http://www.prepreview.com/school/Dalton_School.html

My wife's cousin had to go through an interview and an aptitude test before she was accepted into her nursery...She was 2.5 yo at the time. This was about 18 years ago, last year she graduated from Oxford (she is going to be a lawyer).

 

[Calrid]

True, but everyone want to give their kids as many chances as possible; and if you live in a country/city where the education system is very competitive then this is what happens.
I grew up in Sweden and never had to worry about any of this, I went to a regular school (there was only one school in my village) and still ended up going to the best technical university in Sweden, and then on to do a PhD. But London (and -I presume NY-) is very, very different. The quality of the schools vary a lot, this is for example reflected in the fact house prices are much higher if the house is in an area with good schools (and there are some very good state schools here as well).
This is probably true to some extent; but in a competitive system it still matters which university you went to (for most subjects,); there are some really bad universities in the UK.
Which sort of sums it up. Most kids are not exceptional, and if you want a bright future for a "normal" kid then you basically have to make sure he/she gets a good education. This is the reason why we are in this mess in the first place.

Sad isn't it that in todays world it isn't how bright you are its more how rich your parents are. And they say socialism is bad?



I can guarantee if I had of had the best doctors money could buy and a choice of the top schools, with my supposed "genius" I could of gone far. But instead I suffered for years with no diagnosis and being palmed off from Dr to Dr until they worked out what was wrong with me. And now I'm an unemployed office worker trying to get a qualification in my mid 30s. As I said before perhaps a few years could be added on for laziness but it aint a meritocracy in my country any more than it is in the US. It is an elitocracy. The top jobs are staggeringly by 90% inhabbited by those of upper middle class income bracket famillies. It's tragic really. By top jobs I mean top paid Drs, Lawyers, MPs, Business CEOs etc.

 

[nismaratwork]

I think it depends on where you live. I admitt I am not at all familiar with the situation in New York, but I would assume it is not much different from the situation in any major city. Here in London the differences between "normal" and "good" schools are significant, and there is a lot of competition. The problem has -from what I've been told- been getting worse over the past few years.

Fundamentally, it has to do with the fact that your chances of getting into a good university are much higher if you go to a good school (primarily because they do a better job at preparing you for the exams, the average grades are much higher at e.g. expensive private schools than in normal state schools). The reason why at matters at an early age is that good schools tend to recruit their students from other good schools: it is for example difficult to get into a good secondary school unless you went to a good primary school; which means that you first have to get into a good primary school etc.

Well in the spirit of full disclosure, I'm not familiar with the situation in NYC either. I agree that it's a step-process, but I don't think it needs or CAN realistically begin with toddlers. I am familiar with the UK however, and as Machiavellian as the USA can be, your school system is harsh. The focus on exams (reviews... I forget the idiom) is intense, whereas the USA is more into standardized testing. I don't know that one is better...

Still, I understand that getting into a good HS depends on your achievements and placement in preparatory school, and universities most definitely recruit based on that. Having said that, I find it difficult to imagine that a pricey pre-school is somehow a part of that process. Your child needs a good education, much of which happens at home, and have a good work ethic. That's not something you're going to get while a kid is still figuring out how to reach for something without wiggling their toes instead.

Note that "good school" here means a school where most of the students succed in getting into a good school in the next stage; it does not mean that those schools are actually better at teaching their students maths etc. This is quite obvious when you look at the statistics: the majority of the students at the top universities here in the UK went to "good" schools (often expensive private schools), but the students who attended "normal" (or even "bad") state schools are more successful once they are actually studying at university.

Oh yes, it's all about access and opening doors, but once the door is open the destination is rather similar, if not identical. It's much the same in the USA, with the addition of more idiots due to patronage and 'legacy' at a school, and those few who through money and tutors manage to get by.

I have to be honest, I met some people in HS and College that shouldn't have been entrusted with a lifetime of flipping burgers. The exceptions to the rule are galling, and everywhere. I suspect that a "good" pre-school is more a function of institutional extortion than practical advantages.

This latter agrees with my (limited) experience, where I work we accept summer students (usually 2nd year) from many different universities; I have on several occasions come across students from very good universities who where clearly not very bright (not stupid either, just not as bright as you would expect) and presumably attended schools who simply were good at preparing them for exams; and I frequently come across students from less well-known universities who are really good.
The problem is of course that the student who went to the well-known university will have a huge advantage when he/she starts looking for work. So yes it does matter.

Oh it matters, but there has to be a point at which you begin to look at a kid. I just find it hard to believe that someone who goes to a good JHS/HS is going to be haunted by not attending 'Sie Uber Kindergarten, und pre-school', you know? If you're really bright, you'll nail the standardized teats (usually, barring some learning disabilities) without significant prep... and if you're not... well... not going to change.

Then, we have the Japanese system, which takes the UK/Euro system and refines it to a near-Orwellian system of placement. There, I can believe that you're compared from birth.

Still, given the USA, and NY... I'd guess this is a status issue, not a practical one, even within the rubric of getting into a 'proper school'.

 

[sourlemon]

Is it just me or are too many parents expect the school to teach their children EVERYTHING? I live in the US and I honestly think that if the parents pay more attention to their kids and teach them good work ethics (e.g. working hard and be responsible) then I have no doubts those children have a good chance at getting into an Ivy League schools, regardless of their financial statuses. Granted that the richer/poorer you are, you have a better chance at getting into the Ivy League.

For example, during my sister's freshman/sophomore year in high school, she worked really hard. She tried to be involved in clubs and student government. One day, she showed her achievements to my dad and he just pushed it aside. From then on, everything just went down hill. She stopped participating in clubs and didn't care about her school work, as long as she can graduate.

It's the same. Sending little children to these prestigious school will help. But I think it matters more when the parents show concern and help these kids achieve their potential. That's why I thought the mother was ridiculous. She has time to file a lawsuit, but it really makes me wonder how much time she's spending with her kid and teaching the kid something worthwhile.

 

[nismaratwork]

Is it just me or are too many parents expect the school to teach their children EVERYTHING? I live in the US and I honestly think that if the parents pay more attention to their kids and teach them good work ethics (e.g. working hard and be responsible) then I have no doubts those children have a good chance at getting into an Ivy League schools, regardless of their financial statuses. Granted that the richer/poorer you are, you have a better chance at getting into the Ivy League.

For example, during my sister's freshman/sophomore year in high school, she worked really hard. She tried to be involved in clubs and student government. One day, she showed her achievements to my dad and he just pushed it aside. From then on, everything just went down hill. She stopped participating in clubs and didn't care about her school work, as long as she can graduate.

It's the same. Sending little children to these prestigious school will help. But I think it matters more when the parents show concern and help these kids achieve their potential. That's why I thought the mother was ridiculous. She has time to file a lawsuit, but it really makes me wonder how much time she's spending with her kid and teaching the kid something worthwhile.

It's soooooo not just you.

 

[mugaliens]

$19,000 tuition, huh? That's one IQ she hasn't passed.

 

[Curl]

Hm, perhaps Mom hoped for

why do most people think memorizing chyt means you're smart?

 

[nismaratwork]

why do most people think memorizing chyt means you're smart?

Easy, because then you buy that crud, and money is made, from the humble flash-card, to the 5 digit (before the decimal you nerds!) pre-school cost.

@Mugs: Seriously!

 

[jhae2.718]

Shouldn't this lawsuit be thrown out as frivolous?

 

[nismaratwork]

Shouldn't this lawsuit be thrown out as frivolous?

Probably not... cause of action is a complex thing... courts tend to hear a case if there isn't established law in place, unless it's clearly laughable (to a judge). I find this laughable, but the amount of money changing hands, the claims made... they'll at least hear it, but you can bet there will be motions to dismiss.

 

[L2E]

seriously this mother is an idiot? preschool is a place for kids to play not learn calculus.

if she is pushing her kid that hard, it's likely that the kid will become alienated from other people forced to study. this does not necessarily mean the kid will become smart.

 

[Proton Soup]

why do most people think memorizing chyt means you're smart?

i wouldn't say it makes her smart, but now she has a vocabulary for it. essentially, it's just teaching a language, and young children soak up language like a sponge.

 

[nismaratwork]

i wouldn't say it makes her smart, but now she has a vocabulary for it. essentially, it's just teaching a language, and young children soak up language like a sponge.

They do, but the cost is unknown.

 

[Proton Soup]

They do, but the cost is unknown.

such as ?

 

[DR13]

<insert 10,000 word long angry rant here>

 

[nismaratwork]

such as ?

Well, to maintain that language skill you need to keep practicing. In a bilingual home it's easiest to just speak in both languages, and the kid will pick it up organically. If you're prepping your kid with flash-cards... I have misgivings.

There are cartoons made to teach languages... those I find more palatable, simply because kids seem to enjoy them. I'm not a huge fan of learning for young children that doesn't focus on 'play', and I'm wary of parents who cram babies.

That said, I would have been thrilled to have learned Greek from my father as a child, so there's certainly a wide range of possiblities. The kids I've met who seem most integrated into multiple languages have a bilingual home, the flash-card kids lose a lot of it around age 3, and generally seem less motivated to retain it.

 

[Calrid]

why do most people think memorizing chyt means you're smart?

Because most people aren't smart perhaps.

 

[MJay82]

Yeah, why can't we just go back to sitting kiddos in front of a television until they're old enough to be inundated with the mediocrity of school. The world needs more worker bees!

 

[nismaratwork]

Ah yes... now I remember why I never want to teach...

 

[MJay82]

Because the education we've been giving our children in America for decades/centuries is largely inadequate, or at the VERY least not as good as it could/should be? Be the change.

 

[nismaratwork]

Because the education we've been giving our children in America for decades/centuries is largely inadequate, or at the VERY least not as good as it could/should be? Be the change.

I couldn't care less about being part of that change for a doomed species.

 

[MJay82]

I couldn't care less about being part of that change for a doomed species.

I hear you and can't fault you for it. Still, some of us must try. :)

 

[nismaratwork]

I hear you and can't fault you for it. Still, some of us must try. :)

In that, I wish you and all teachers the best of luck, not in the least for having to deal with parents...